In the Beginning.....

[robocop (actually)]

It does? Be a dear and offer a citation for that?

No thanks. I don't even believe in time; I think it's a human construct - but I'll keep it to myself.

 

[Colt]

I don't believe you, what objective evidence can you demonstrate for this claim?



Who cares, it's errant nonsense.

Nonconformists are all alike.

 

[Sand Dancer]

It's more likely that it's just stories primitive people invented because they didn't have facts and science.

It was taken from stories of the surrounding areas, even down to a reference to the Marduk/Tiamat story using Yahweh and Leviathan.

#2. Did God create the heavens and earth from the formless deep OR did Yahweh create them from the slaying of the primaeval sea monster Leviathan/Rahab? (Gen 1:1-8 vs Ps 74:13-17, 89:11-13; Job 26:12-13)

 

[Sheldon]

No thanks. I don't even believe in time; I think it's a human construct - but I'll keep it to myself.

Then your previous assertion was unevidenced BS, and you demonstrably did not keep it to yourself.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
I don't believe you, what objective evidence can you demonstrate for this claim?



Who cares, it's errant nonsense.

Nonconformists are all alike.

As are delusional unevidenced assertions.

 

[Truthseeker]

Is there someone who does not have a limited idea of what a god might be?

Good point. God is beyond anyone's comprehension, even a Prophet. But a Prophet knows more about the will of God for people, and through their mouths comes more knowledge than Einstein would know.

 

[lukethethird]

Good point. God is beyond anyone's comprehension, even a Prophet. But a Prophet knows more about the will of God for people, and through their mouths comes more knowledge than Einstein would know.

For example?

 

[RestlessSoul]

A deity he declared unequivocally he did not believe in. You do know what open minded means right? Only you seem to be misrepresenting it, as I've often seen theists do, as a prima facie acceptance of claims or beliefs without any or proper objective evidence.








Not when they want their work in physics peer reviewed though, obviously.

An open mind is a mind which is always evolving Sheldon; a mind which accepts that nothing is certain, nothing is fixed. A mind which is open is open to doubt, and makes no unequivocal declarations.

 

[Audie]

Good point. God is beyond anyone's comprehension, even a Prophet. But a Prophet knows more about the will of God for people, and through their mouths comes more knowledge than Einstein would know.

I have seen such statements but never an
example of such knowledge.

 

[Sheldon]

An open mind is a mind which is always evolving Sheldon; a mind which accepts that nothing is certain, nothing is fixed. A mind which is open is open to doubt, and makes no unequivocal declarations.

Open minded means treating all ideas without bias or prejudice. The very antithesis of basing belief on faith, or subjective bias, I'd say.

 

[Audie]

Open minded means treating all ideas without bias or prejudice. The very antithesis of basing belief on faith, or subjective bias, I'd say.

Promulgations on " open mind " from a theist
have a hollow ring.

 

[viole]

Paint is not light.

A stone is not light, either. Yet, it has a lot of energy.

ciao

- viole

 

[DKH]

but like you said, humans are incapable of fathoming the concept of being infinite, beyond the actual words themselves.

With all due respect, I didn't actually say this (see post 40). My comment was that humans didn't have a complete understanding of infinity. The supplied bible verse (Isa 57:15) goes beyond the basic definition of the actual word itself. It verifies that a human had contact (in some way) with God, related to the topic being discussed.

my question was and still IS, God HAD to have "been" somewhere, BEFORE creating the heavens and then the Earth. What and WHERE was that "somewhere" BEFORE God did all His creating? The way I read the scripture regarding this matter, is that "in the beginning" without defining the 'beginning of WHAT', God "created", that is BROUGHT INTO BEING, the heavens and the Earth.

It is my opinion that the term "heavens" can be defined as: the sky of the planet earth and the celestial bodies in the expanse of outer space. That's it…This would be known as the physical universe. Where, in basic physics, time causes the existence of matter. So, time exists when matter exists and vice-versa. Thus, when I use terms like: eternity and infinity, I am claiming that God is without beginning and without end, as well as without limits. The God is outside of time and matter, because God created time, thus matter. Therefore, not bound by the laws of physic or any other laws related to the physical. I'll even "go as far as" stating that God is even beyond eternity! Hence, there is nothing before God. So, the idea of infinite regression of causes is not a factor in the subject matter being discussed (in my opinion).

 

[74x12]

A stone is not light, either. Yet, it has a lot of energy.

ciao

- viole

Even paint will emit light if you burn it. That's all flame is. Superheated particles glowing orange or whatever color; coming off of whatever is burning. My point was that energy can't exist without light existing.

 

[viole]

Even paint will emit light if you burn it. That's all flame is. Superheated particles glowing orange or whatever color; coming off of whatever is burning. My point was that energy can't exist without light existing.

Maybe it is rather way round. Light would not exist without energy, for the simple reason that to each photon is associated an energy that is proportional to its frequency. Red light photons have less energy than green light photon.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Ehav4Ever]

That's sort of what the Bahai's believe as well.....that there really was no "creation", in that God AND the universe and both equally eternal and uncreated. Yet, in spite OF that, (they) still refer to God as "creator-God", for reasons I have never gotten a decent explanation for.

Actually, this is not a correct interpretation of what Jews hold by.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I read in a Jewish book that God simply existed at the same time as everything else and was the creating part of it not the getting-created.
My religion is a little different.

I am not sure what "Jewish book" you are referencing but that is not a correct expression of what has been historically and anciently held in Jewish text. It could be that the translation of the book you read was faulty, it could be that the book was not quoting ancient sources, it could also be that there is a confusion because the world "god" in English does not really relate well to words in ancient Hebrew.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I am not sure what "Jewish book" you are referencing but that is not a correct expression of what has been historically and anciently held in Jewish text. It could be that the translation of the book you read was faulty, it could be that the book was not quoting ancient sources, it could also be that there is a confusion because the world "god" in English does not really relate well to words in ancient Hebrew.

Samson Raphael Hirsch The Pentateuch

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Samson Raphael Hirsch The Pentateuch

It would be that your translation then is a bit problematic. I.e. the translation you are using. The problem could be in trying to translate the list of concepts into English. Rabbi Hirsch was real precise about how the Hebrew language needed to be understood within itself w/o the use of foreign languages.

For example, below is the Hebrew of what Rabbi Hirsch wrote about Beresheeth 1:1 and what it states is not similar to the statement that "God simply existed at the same time as everything else." I have highlighted the parts that contradict this statement.

Instead, a better way of translating, or summing up, what he wrote - shown below- would be something like this.

Hashem, the Source of creation/reality, (אלהים) caused all elements of reality/the universe/matter/the natural laws of reality/etc. to exist as well as what is possible to happen in reality - all of this was created/initiated from nothing insituated by the use of the Hebrew word (ברא). Time is included in this, as a created thing, so before time was created there was no such thing as past, present, or future. Thus, the Source of creation/reality is not subject to something it created. The Source of creation was itself not created because if it was it would not be "The Source" of creation. Thus nothing can a create something that is the "Source" of creation. Further, the Source of creation is not made up of anything that it created and does not reside in a location or have a form like what is found in the universe it created.
​

BTW - I think the basic problem comes up that the word (אלהים) does not really translate into what the English word "god" means in the west.

 

[robocop (actually)]

It would be that your translation then is a bit problematic. I.e. the translation you are using. The problem could be in trying to translate the list of concepts into English. Rabbi Hirsch was real precise about how the Hebrew language needed to be understood within itself w/o the use of foreign languages.

For example, below is the Hebrew of what Rabbi Hirsch wrote about Beresheeth 1:1 and what it states is not similar to the statement that "God simply existed at the same time as everything else." I have highlighted the parts that contradict this statement.

Instead, a better way of translating, or summing up, what he wrote - shown below- would be something like this.

Hashem, the Source of creation/reality, (אלהים) caused all elements of reality/the universe/matter/the natural laws of reality/etc. to exist as well as what is possible to happen in reality - all of this was created/initiated from nothing insituated by the use of the Hebrew word (ברא). Time is included in this, as a created thing, so before time was created there was no such thing as past, present, or future. Thus, the Source of creation/reality is not subject to something it created. The Source of creation was itself not created because if it was it would not be "The Source" of creation. Thus nothing can a create something that is the "Source" of creation. Further, the Source of creation is not made up of anything that it created and does not reside in a location or have a form like what is found in the universe it created.
​

BTW - I think the basic problem comes up that the word (אלהים) does not really translate into what the English word "god" means in the west.

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View attachment 60033

Alright; thank you for your effort Ehav.