In the U.S., Christianity loses members while atheism grows. Why?

[Sententia]

*Waits for the inevitable "people are getting smarter" response*

Awwww... Apex is feeling down?

Honestly there are more then a few studies. Bottom line is there are extremely smart people who also believe in a personal god.

Feel better?

 

[Kathryn]

My old religion professor used to say that people read the Bible like it was written yesterday in their hometown.

Maybe because so many of the truths found within the scriptures are ageless and timeless.

 

[Sententia]

Maybe because so many of the truths found within the scriptures are ageless and timeless.

So are many of the posts of members here... What is your point?

 

[Kathryn]

I made my point. It was a simple enough statement - don't make it more difficult than it has to be.

 

[Sententia]

I made my point. It was a simple enough statement - don't make it more difficult than it has to be.

That the timeless and ageless points made in the bible are nothing more or any greater then many of the points made here by many other visitors to this site?

Compared to many famous secular philosophers the scriptures are pathetic, simple minded and childish... and by scriptures I assume you mean the bible and not the koran or any other holy text you deny by embracing your holy bible.

 

[Kathryn]

and by scriptures I assume you mean the bible and not the koran or any other holy text you deny by embracing your holy bible.

I respect truth from any source.

 

[Sententia]

I respect truth from any source.

Sidestepping your point you made?

I made my point.

And the skies opened and YHWH came forth and said the point that Kathryn tried to make was made and so saith her and I.

Really... you made your point? Why did I question it? Why did I counter point it? You made your point... in your opinion and perhaps others...

Perhaps.

Defend it Kathryn.

Defend your point. Clarify it, back it up and show me why you think you can just declare your point is made and then walk away.

Is your blood divine?

If your an american like me then you are equal to me. Do you dispute this? Should you be more equal?

You made your point? What point? Why and how is it made?

 

[McBell]

Sidestepping your point you made?



And the skies opened and YHWH came forth and said the point that Kathryn tried to make was made and so saith her and I.

Really... you made your point? Why did I question it? Why did I counter point it? You made your point... in your opinion and perhaps others...

Perhaps.

Defend it Kathryn.

Defend your point. Clarify it, back it up and show me why you think you can just declare your point is made and then walk away.

Is your blood divine?

If your an american like me then you are equal to me. Do you dispute this? Should you be more equal?

You made your point? What point? Why and how is it made?

Dude...
You so seriously need to cut back on the caffeine.

 

[Sententia]

Dude...
You so seriously need to cut back on the caffeine.

Hee hee... perhaps mate. I have been busy lately... I thought RF might have missed me? Probably not... hah.

I missed RF though.

 

[dust1n]

I find it kind of funny that we're talking about the "cause" of atheism. Atheism is a non-action. It is simply not believing in a particular proposition. We are all atheists by default since we are born with no conception of a "God". It is only when people are taught about God that they are "caused" to become theists. Often this is at a very young age, so we tend to forget that theism is the thing that is caused. Atheism is the default.

Choosing to self-apply the label "atheist" isn't a non-action. Choosing "atheist" from a list of options on a survey is a choice.

Agreed, and that would be a good point if he had said, "everyone one is born a 'self-applied atheist.'

EDIT: And I never chose atheist of a list, nor did I use it to after I went through my 'christian phase', which was 13-15 years old. Before 13, I was not a 'self-described atheists', but I did not believe in god.

Actually, from what I've read about it, it seems that for humans, animism is the default.

I haven't anything about it, but could you explain to me how 'animism' is more of a human default than 'atheism'. I'm just curious about the concept, never heard of that before. (Or you know where I can read about it, that would be fine.)

Just my personal opinion that we don't believe anything after we are born, especially since we usually have to start participating in a language before we could ever actually comprehend any of these concepts anyways.

 

[dust1n]

Maybe because so many of the truths found within the scriptures are ageless and timeless.

"My old religion professor used to say that people read the Bible like it was written yesterday in their hometown."

^-- Um, Kathryn, I think that line is an insult...

"...people read the Bible like it was written yesterday..." implies someone is not taking the context of the book into consideration, which I imagine would be a very important factor if you thought it was written by divine intervention or had any bearing on the quality of life.

 

[Sententia]

Dude...
You so seriously need to cut back on the caffeine.

And to be fair... I guess I should call you out too.

Why is you think I should cut back on my caffeine? Shall I just accept opinions of others when they contradict with the reality I embrace?

Should I be less loquacious? Should I accept the farcical ancient religious and superstitious crap arguments many more intelligent then I have already debunked, owned and questioned because those arguing against it have declared case closed and declared they made their point?

Should I just be silent? (Or shall I just shut up?)

And why do you attribute a differing opinion to caffeine and what does that say about your opinion towards mormons who predominantly avoid caffeine?

It is in the interest of being fair... but do you disagree with my points and to what extent? If someone is going to baldly declare the scriptures as some timeless and ageless piece of wisdom or guidance in stark contrast to the crap and civilization destroying and conflict generating testament piece of pseudo scientific gibberish that it actually is I feel they should back that balderdash up. Are you disagreeing or do you have some issue with the way in which I am presenting the argument to someone who supposedly has sought to completely understand her opposition and criticizes others for not doing so?

SEEK FIRST TO UNDERSTAND. What this means is - before you judge so harshly, really really try to UNDERSTAND why the other person believes as they do. I think you may be surprised at what you find. You will certainly be wiser and make better informed decisions.

 

[MBT]

It's a pity to hear this information.I think only if we have the beautiful and inspiring faith,the result will be reversal.
:no:

 

[madhatter85]

Awwww... Apex is feeling down?

Honestly there are more then a few studies. Bottom line is there are extremely smart people who also believe in a personal god.

Feel better?

this is already common knowledge as many of the LDS apostles and seventy are highly educated and respected in their lines of work or fields of scientific research.

Famous Mormon Scientists
just to name a couple:
John A. Widtsoe (Former Apostle)
(1872 - 1952)
biochemist
He studied biochemistry at Harvard and in 1889 received a Ph.D. in chemistry from Gottingen University in Germany
Richard G. Scott (Current Apostle)
nuclear engineer
He did advanced studies at Oak Ridge National Laboratory for the Department of Energy.

Famous Mormon Engineers and Inventors
Famous Mormons Mathematicians
Famous Mormons in Education Management
Famous Mormons in Business A-E
Famous Mormons in Business F-M
Famous Mormons in Business N-Z

 

[McBell]

And to be fair... I guess I should call you out too.

Um..
On what?

Why is you think I should cut back on my caffeine?

Because instead of sounding like the BalanceFx I know, you sound like someone who has had about 20 to many cups of double espresso.

Shall I just accept opinions of others when they contradict with the reality I embrace?

I cannot help but wonder why you would jump to that particular conclusion.

Should I be less loquacious? Should I accept the farcical ancient religious and superstitious crap arguments many more intelligent then I have already debunked, owned and questioned because those arguing against it have declared case closed and declared they made their point?

Should I just be silent? (Or shall I just shut up?)

And why do you attribute a differing opinion to caffeine and what does that say about your opinion towards mormons who predominantly avoid caffeine?

So now you are merely going to lash out at anyone who dare reply to one your posts?

It is in the interest of being fair... but do you disagree with my points and to what extent?

I have no idea if I disagree with your points or not.
Since you are rambling on like a mad man attacking me for no other reason than your ASSUMPTIONS.

If someone is going to baldly declare the scriptures as some timeless and ageless piece of wisdom or guidance in stark contrast to the crap and civilization destroying and conflict generating testament piece of pseudo scientific gibberish that it actually is I feel they should back that balderdash up. Are you disagreeing or do you have some issue with the way in which I am presenting the argument to someone who supposedly has sought to completely understand her opposition and criticizes others for not doing so?

Geez.
you act as though you are looking for a fight.

My apologies for making you feel so threatened.
I just thought you sounded like some one who has had way more caffiene than they normally had.
No need to get your panties in a wad.

 

[Kathryn]

"My old religion professor used to say that people read the Bible like it was written yesterday in their hometown."

^-- Um, Kathryn, I think that line is an insult...

"...people read the Bible like it was written yesterday..." implies someone is not taking the context of the book into consideration, which I imagine would be a very important factor if you thought it was written by divine intervention or had any bearing on the quality of life.

Um, Dust1n, I know that. My response showed the unintentional irony of that statement.

There truly are many ageless and timeless truths in the scriptures. When we come across those, of COURSE it helps to place them in historical context - it fleshes out the meaning of the passage. But regardless of historical context, here are just a few timeless truths that are in the Bible:

“What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul.”

“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

“For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”

“The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.”

“Where there is no vision, the people perish. (Proverbs 29:18)”

“A sound heart is the life of the flesh: but envy the rottenness of the bones (Proverbs 14:30).”

“Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. (Proverbs 17:28)”

“Better is a dinner of herbs where love is than a fattened ox and hatred with it (Proverbs 15:17).”

“Give, and it shall be given to you. For whatever measure you deal out to others, it will be dealt to you in return.”

“Weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning. (Psalms 30:5)”

“If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.”

“And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”

“Love is patient; love is kind
and envies no one.
Love is never boastful, nor conceited, nor rude;
never selfish, not quick to take offense.
There is nothing love cannot face;
there is no limit to its faith,
its hope, and endurance.
In a word, there are three things
that last forever: faith, hope, and love;
but the greatest of them all is love.”

Psalm 23

A psalm of David.

1 The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.

2 He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
3 he restores my soul.
He guides me in paths of righteousness
for his name's sake.
4 Even though I walk
through the valley of the shadow of death, [a]
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows. 6 Surely goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD
forever.

The truths in these passages are timeless and eternal. Though an understanding of the historical context of these passages would add even more interesting detail, Christians don't need a thesaurus, a book of commentary, and a concordance of the original languages to grasp, or live by, these truths.

I believe that anyone could apply these beliefs in their lives and improve the quality of their life - and the lives of others around them.

 

[Apex]

Awwww... Apex is feeling down?

Honestly there are more then a few studies. Bottom line is there are extremely smart people who also believe in a personal god.

Feel better?

Yay for zombie post revivals.

The sad part is there have be four or five responses claiming that exact thing in this thread.

 

[RamaRaksha]

Um, Dust1n, I know that. My response showed the unintentional irony of that statement.

There truly are many ageless and timeless truths in the scriptures. When we come across those, of COURSE it helps to place them in historical context - it fleshes out the meaning of the passage. But regardless of historical context, here are just a few timeless truths that are in the Bible:

“What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul.”

“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

“For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”

“The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.”

“Where there is no vision, the people perish. (Proverbs 29:18)”

“A sound heart is the life of the flesh: but envy the rottenness of the bones (Proverbs 14:30).”

“Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. (Proverbs 17:28)”

“Better is a dinner of herbs where love is than a fattened ox and hatred with it (Proverbs 15:17).”

“Give, and it shall be given to you. For whatever measure you deal out to others, it will be dealt to you in return.”

“Weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning. (Psalms 30:5)”

“If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.”

“And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”

“Love is patient; love is kind
and envies no one.
Love is never boastful, nor conceited, nor rude;
never selfish, not quick to take offense.
There is nothing love cannot face;
there is no limit to its faith,
its hope, and endurance.
In a word, there are three things
that last forever: faith, hope, and love;
but the greatest of them all is love.”

Psalm 23

A psalm of David.

1 The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.

2 He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
3 he restores my soul.
He guides me in paths of righteousness
for his name's sake.
4 Even though I walk
through the valley of the shadow of death, [a]
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows. 6 Surely goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD
forever.

The truths in these passages are timeless and eternal. Though an understanding of the historical context of these passages would add even more interesting detail, Christians don't need a thesaurus, a book of commentary, and a concordance of the original languages to grasp, or live by, these truths.

I believe that anyone could apply these beliefs in their lives and improve the quality of their life - and the lives of others around them.

Very nice. What you wrote is Faith. In Faith there is no name for God, no rules, no books or admonitions, words to God are spoken thru the heart. Then came religion - lasso god and make him ours, make him proselytize for us(some religions), books and rules, looking thru books to speak to God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Agreed, and that would be a good point if he had said, "everyone one is born a 'self-applied atheist.'

EDIT: And I never chose atheist of a list, nor did I use it to after I went through my 'christian phase', which was 13-15 years old. Before 13, I was not a 'self-described atheists', but I did not believe in god.

As laid out in the OP, this whole thread is about changes in religious self-identification as reported in surveys. Even if newborn babies were atheist, they're not telling people that they are, so they wouldn't be responsible for the effect we're discussing here.

I haven't anything about it, but could you explain to me how 'animism' is more of a human default than 'atheism'. I'm just curious about the concept, never heard of that before. (Or you know where I can read about it, that would be fine.)

I've heard it from a few places, but the most straightforward example that I can think of is by Michael Shermer - he talks about it in his book Why People Believe Weird Things.

People tend to attribute agency to natural phenomena. Shermer talks about this in terms of Type I vs. Type II errors.

We also have a tendency to infer design where none exists. For example, as one researcher put it in a Quirks and Quarks interview that I'll have to track down, when he asked his daughter why a particular rock was sharp and pointy, she said "so animals won't sit on it"... even though she had never been told that rocks were made by anyone for any particular purpose.

Also, we infer causation in cases of correlation (e.g. I did X, then it rained, so the two things must have something to do with each other). We also have a tendency to identify human-like charactaristics where none exist (as another researcher put it in that Quirks and Quarks interview, "this is why we see faces in clouds and not clouds in faces").

Just my personal opinion that we don't believe anything after we are born, especially since we usually have to start participating in a language before we could ever actually comprehend any of these concepts anyways.

I disagree with that strongly. I think the evidence shows that we're born hard-wired for all sorts of things. Stephen Pinker's book The Blank Slate probably explains it a lot better than I could, though.

Edit: actually, one of the examples that Pinker uses is language: even people who have never been taught language will still create their own languages that obey the same general grammatical rules as more common languages.

 

[Beaudreaux]

The "cause" of atheism?
That's easy.
Theism.

LOL!!! That is so true and so funny at the same time. THANKS for that.