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INDISPUTABLE Rational Proof That God Exists (Or Existed)

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
One that does things for no reason? :)

Like creating everything in the universe? So far as I can tell if god did exist, there could be no rational reason behind creating the universe. And certainly no rational reason behind creating the universe so big and putting only humans in it. Especially when they can only see a mere fraction of it and certainly can't visit it beyond the very limited confines of our own solar system. It's an awful waste of time and energy.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Like creating everything in the universe? So far as I can tell if god did exist, there could be no rational reason behind creating the universe. And certainly no rational reason behind creating the universe so big and putting only humans in it. Especially when they can only see a mere fraction of it and certainly can't visit it beyond the very limited confines of our own solar system. It's an awful waste of time and energy.
You're right: god should have given us teleportation.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Like creating everything in the universe? So far as I can tell if god did exist, there could be no rational reason behind creating the universe.
We wouldn't know God's reasoning. (If such a God did exist)

And certainly no rational reason behind creating the universe so big and putting only humans in it.
Only if that's what we think God did. If God's reason was to create a universe full of life (of which we haven't discovered yet, but that could be because of our flawed methods of searching rather than its existence) and that we're just one small part of all that life. It won't put it in the center of creation as Creationists want to, but it wouldn't be an irrational God. Only if we assume God's purpose to be something that we find irrational will that God-image be irrational. (I think) If we try to make God rational (new definition of God instead of the old and ancient definitions), it's easier to have a rational belief.

Especially when they can only see a mere fraction of it and certainly can't visit it beyond the very limited confines of our own solar system. It's an awful waste of time and energy.
It is. That's why God (if there is one) would have other purposes or thoughts about the Universe than we commonly think.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
That site contained Vilenkin's reasons why he thought the other eternal cosmological arguments were impossible. It contained Craig's impression of those reasons. Vilenkin, Hawking, Sandage, etc... have given a multiplicity of scientific reasons why eternal models of the universe do not work. I have tried to post but a few. I can't discuss them all. If you wish to discuss eternal "worlds" then pick a specific model and we can discuss it. I can't accept a personal commentary on Craig as an argument against that site of the others I have provided. There are no known natural eternals or infinites and there are no reasons to believe they exist, and many to believe it is impossible. [/font][/color]

Vilenkin’s cosmogony argues to a personal God and the site concluded its argument by quoting Craig, but I have not had a proper response to the objections I made concerning this.


A cause must always be greater than the effect. Sufficient causation requires that cause to have certain aspects. The creator of time cannot be in time, the creator of matter can be composed of matter, etc.... If every joule of energy in the universe was added together the cause must have at least that much. That is another reason nature can't cause it's self because nature never acts perfectly efficient. That is also why oscillating models are impossible.

If I may…
…you cannot infer more qualities or power in a cause than is necessary for the effect. Object A strikes object B and moves it distance G. From that observation just how do you presume to infer in A the potential for H, I, J or Z? We cannot infer from G that the cause A is greater or can exceed B, but only that the power of A was exactly sufficient to move B and achieve G.

And you are still, for some reason, and after I don’t know how many posts, repeating that same non-sense about “nature can’t be the cause of itself”. Of course it can’t!

Saying truth exists independently from perception is simply a brute fact. My perception is not conditional of anything's existence beyond claims about perception.
The suns existence has nothing to do with my eyes or temperature sensory. Confirmation has nothing to do with existence.


I’m not questioning whether perception can deceive us, as we can all think of numerous examples where it appears to do exactly that; I’m questioning whether “truth” can be known independent of what we experience, such as the dead living again when our every experience is that they do not; and likewise what are these “moral truths” you speak of, and how are they true independent of experience?



To say that carbon is a part of the "world" but yet God is not is arbitrary.


Carbon objects can be seen, heard, touched, tasted and smelt. Not even theists disbelieve there is carbon matter; but God can only be imagined, and even then the concept must be compunded from experience.


Why is the supernatural any different from any other type of reality. It can be verified or inferred through what can be easily detected, the same way the Quantum or wind can be. Supernatural truths do not have a higher level of improbability than natural truths even if they do have less certain methods of detection.


What do you mean by “any other type of reality?” By the very definition of the term there is only reality, the one and only reality that we all share.

And please provide examples of a “supernatural truth”?




The probability Christ changed water to wine by non-natural methods is determined by the testimony and evidence and is not less probable than it doing so by natural means. In fact since there exists no natural means it could change from water to wine then the sole probability is determined by the historical method.


If it is improbable in experience that no natural means could change water into wine, which we all agree that it is, then that same improbability applies to the same event reported to be experienced. Probability in the sense we’re discussing here* concerns what is more likely than not in possible experience or as A J Ayer writes in Language, Truth and Logic: “An observation increases our confidence in the proposition, as measured by our willingness to rely on it in practice as a forecast of our sensations, and to retain it in preference to other hypotheses in the face of an unfavourable experience.”


I have even used probabilistic calculus to debate the issue but it can be.


*Ayer adds a footnote to say: “This definition does not, of course apply to the mathematical usage of the term ‘probability’.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Instead he/it made it physically imposable to exceed the speed of light!

Here's a notion I've kept to myself...until now....

With creation as a 'constant'....then a constant is needed to keep it that way....
"Let there be light"
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Like creating everything in the universe? So far as I can tell if god did exist, there could be no rational reason behind creating the universe. And certainly no rational reason behind creating the universe so big and putting only humans in it. Especially when they can only see a mere fraction of it and certainly can't visit it beyond the very limited confines of our own solar system. It's an awful waste of time and energy.
This is absurd.

1. If there was a rational reason an infinite being would create the universe in all probability a fallible finite being would probably not have a clue what it was.
2. It gets even worse when that same being was supplied the rational reason in the most studied and cherished book in human history because he is so finite he must be spoon fed it, and still does not get it.
3. Every aspect of the universe contains a rationality only a mind could have supplied, yet that is exactly what you deny.
4. God's purpose was to create a place of wonder and mystery to indicate his existence and to allow a free moral agent to exist with freewill so as to freely chose to love him or reject him. The is no greater rationality possible.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Vilenkin’s cosmogony argues to a personal God and the site concluded its argument by quoting Craig, but I have not had a proper response to the objections I made concerning this.
Vilenkin does not argue to a theistic conclusion. He argues to a natural finite without natural cause or explanation. He additionally argues for the impossibility of the major infinite universe and multiverse concepts. I do not think he is a theist and as a cosmologist does not speculate on God. Now the site may have done so, and Craig is often used because he is brilliant and a theist. That site also contained posts by the hundreds that hashed out all aspects of the article. I apologize that I just can't get to and respond to all your claims. I am one of the few orthodox Christians on the site and so am the target for most of the atheists and hard agnostics. I just can't get to everything. Can you give me your post # or research that sites posts for the response.




If I may…
…you cannot infer more qualities or power in a cause than is necessary for the effect. Object A strikes object B and moves it distance G. From that observation just how do you presume to infer in A the potential for H, I, J or Z? We cannot infer from G that the cause A is greater or can exceed B, but only that the power of A was exactly sufficient to move B and achieve G.
You can for faith claims but I am not really doing so directly. What we know of think we know is that the cause of the universe must be more powerful that all the combined energy in it which is unimaginably powerful (even the singularity is given as almost infinite in power by secular scientists),
It must be unimaginably intelligent, it must be non-material, it must be outside of time and space. Now that resembles the God of the Bible far more than any natural entity, especially since the cause created nature and was not natural. There might be a semantic technicality in there somewhere but nothing I said is unreasonable. I am not making proof claim, only best fit claims.


And you are still, for some reason, and after I don’t know how many posts, repeating that same non-sense about “nature can’t be the cause of itself”. Of course it can’t!
I will stop repeating it when it is granted in responses. If you agree with the above the only other issue is whether nature is finite or infinite. All evidence suggests it is finite. Given those two I am so near a proof for a God that I could rest my case. However I can never get those two things conceded at the same time. So I must relentlessly state them over and over.




I’m not questioning whether perception can deceive us, as we can all think of numerous examples where it appears to do exactly that; I’m questioning whether “truth” can be known independent of what we experience, such as the dead living again when our every experience is that they do not; and likewise what are these “moral truths” you speak of, and how are they true independent of experience?
I am not arguing for a known. I am arguing for the best explanation for evidence and or testimony.






Carbon objects can be seen, heard, touched, tasted and smelt. Not even theists disbelieve there is carbon matter; but God can only be imagined, and even then the concept must be compunded from experience.
No God can be experienced in the exact same way as love, pleasure, beauty, etc.... Why is only God eliminated from the extremely long list of non-empirical experiences?





What do you mean by “any other type of reality?” By the very definition of the term there is only reality, the one and only reality that we all share.
That was stated clumsily. I meant modes of perception. Math is a mode, touch is a mode, philosophy is a mode, and experience is a mode?

And please provide examples of a “supernatural truth”?
The cause of nature. Morality, Being born again. Miracles.







If it is improbable in experience that no natural means could change water into wine, which we all agree that it is, then that same improbability applies to the same event reported to be experienced. Probability in the sense we’re discussing here* concerns what is more likely than not in possible experience or as A J Ayer writes in Language, Truth and Logic: “An observation increases our confidence in the proposition, as measured by our willingness to rely on it in practice as a forecast of our sensations, and to retain it in preference to other hypotheses in the face of an unfavourable experience.”
It is not improbable in experience. It is less frequent. Quantum physics had no known examples a hundred years or so ago. Yet it is as real as Newtonian physics. The frequency of perception is not
a limitation. You are also talking about frequency of natural occurrences. Miracles are not natural occurrences. Confidence is subjective and not exactly a science. Their have been an inexhaustible list of betrayals of confidence. This event is decided by strength of testimony alone. It is strong in the opinions of those most capable of judging as we have been debating. Confidence is not directly relatable to frequency in many cases and not related to truth in many cases. Confidence many times is based on more preference than anything else. Cognitive dissonance is one powerful force. I have read studies that indicated that a person who is actually wrong is less willing to admit it based on the amount of evidence supplied. That is a minority of cases but so frequent as to be indicative.




*Ayer adds a footnote to say: “This definition does not, of course apply to the mathematical usage of the term ‘probability’.
Probabilistic calculus is an ambiguous animal and that is why I do not use it but I have seen it used to prove Gospel events. However lets say it is highly inaccurate. If it returns a 98% probable figure then surely the worst case scenario is 60% 0r 70%. I will supply some of it for curiosity if you wish.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
I for one...have no religion.....no dogmatic faith.

But I do believe in Something Greater.
That much will stand to reason.

What is the evidence that you base your "beliefs" then? Is it simply intuition and if so then how do you know your right?
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Well...Cause and effect at the 'point' of singularity.

And the scheme of superlatives.....One Greatest of all.

I know but I'm talking about your claims to "spirit". why need there by anything other than the material? Why do you need to create an answer when we don't have one?
 
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