Infallibility

[paarsurrey]

Baha'u'llah says the Most Great Infalability is of G_d and Baha'u'llah is a Messenger.

This Infallability is essential for the Messengers, this is how the Quran, the words of Muhammad, is error free.

"Know that infallibility is of two kinds: essential infallibility and acquired infallibility. In like manner there is essential knowledge and acquired knowledge; and so it is with other names and attributes. Essential infallibility is peculiar to the supreme Manifestation, for it is His essential requirement, and an essential requirement cannot be separated from the thing itself. The rays are the essential necessity of the sun and are inseparable from it. Knowledge is an essential necessity of God and is inseparable from Him. Power is an essential necessity of God and is inseparable from Him. If it could be separated from Him, He would not be God. If the rays could be separated from the sun, it would not be the sun. Therefore, if one imagines separation of the Most Great Infallibility from the supreme Manifestation, He would not be the supreme Manifestation, and He would lack the essential perfections."

There is much written on this.

Regards Tony

"Most Great Infallibility from the supreme Manifestation"

It is a wrong understanding that the above passage is about the infallibility of Bahaullah as a messenger, as he has not said it by name for Bahaullah, it is of G-d. Right, please?
Also please provide the reference of the passage to see the context.

Regards

 

[Unveiled Artist]

John D’Emilio, homosexual professor of history and of women’s and gender studies at the University of Illinois at Chicago explained in an interview what many—perhaps most—homosexual academicians think about homoerotic attraction and biological determinism:

What’s most amazing to me about the “born gay” phenomenon is that the scientific evidence for it is thin as a reed, yet it doesn’t matter. It’s an idea with such social utility that one doesn’t need much evidence in order to make it attractive and credible…. queer theory asks us…to be skeptical of seeing both gender and sexuality as fixed categories. Who can argue with that?​

Homosexuals Admit "Sexual Orientation" Can and Does Change

That does not prove anything. Natural does not equate to moral. Humans are not animals in the wild. We are spiritual beings. Sex is just part of our animal nature. We can rise above our animal nature if we choose to.

You really got to research this more. Religious websites (and LGBTQ supportive websites) are highly bias on both ends. So, its best to do it neutral and see why people are attracted to each other regardless whats between their legs.

What role do hormones play in determining sexual attraction?

Sexual orientation (attraction not behavior), sexual and gender identity (not preference) in All human beings (intersex, female, male, or neither) are all based on biological and psychological make up of your brain and body. Its like if you like chocolate and I vanilla, we can choose not to eat ice cream etc but we cant chose nor change our tastebuds.

Biology and physiology is not a behavior. Right???

Your links are religious links not scientific studies that talk about sexual attraction in human beings regardless their gender and sex. These studies have nothing to do with behavior (as in the bible) and not addictive lust (as in your links). Its purely what makes us human, rats, dogs, and fish who they are. No one is special.

The biological attraction between people cannot be changed. Their genitals does not make one set of people a choice and other set another. Thats like saying, you and your wife who attracted to each other, decide to marry, and just turned yourself off to men. Medical and psychological studies of attraction itself just isnt like that. Unless you are attracted to the same sex but prefer to be with someone of the opposite?

If this sounds off a bit, this is how heterosexuals and homosexuals and bisexuals feel when people question or make statements against who they are biologically attracted to. We're ginnie pigs. No one is singled out.

What’s most amazing to me about the “born gay” phenomenon is that the scientific evidence for it is thin as a reed, yet it doesn’t matter. It’s an idea with such social utility that one doesn’t need much evidence in order to make it attractive and credible…. queer theory asks us…to be skeptical of seeing both gender and sexuality as fixed categories. Who can argue with that?​

This isnt giving proof its just making a statement (you are false, we are right cause we know better than doctors whose attracted to who).

I have a personal question for you too and you can quote bahaullah too.

If you wanted to be attracted to someone of your same sex, how would you do it? (You can sleep with anyone, but my question is attraction)

Does abrahamic religions scripture say how people are attracted to who and the logistics behind that attraction?

Another thing, if you (all) read this far.

If you have a husband or wife, can you make yourself not be attracted to her or him? If so, how? If not, how not?

You dont have to answer from your personal experiences. You can use a dummy, but the context of the question is the same.

Gottta go.. If you can, could you list medical sources on human attraction that has nothing to do with heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality, just biological attraction without religious implications.

From a academics site? Research? studies or so have you?

 

[Marcion]

Natural does not equate to moral. Humans are not animals in the wild. We are spiritual beings. Sex is just part of our animal nature. We can rise above our animal nature if we choose to.

Agree. Now please explain to me how exactly the act of sex is divided into moral sex and immoral sex and explain to me how the one became to be immoral and the other moral.
I would prefer if you linked it to the 5 yama's and 5 niyama's, the 10 do's or don'ts of morality.

Changing people's inborn sexual orientation is impossible (apart from a brain transplant).

Edit: Indian supreme court decriminalises homosexuality

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Here's something else I posted as s thread awhile back about animals and fish changing sex
12 Amazing Gender-Bending Animals | 12. Frogs.

As for attraction, that's purely biological. Conversion is aren't changing attraction but trying to suppress what they call unnatural attractions so that "natural" ones develop.

That assumes that the human body if only programed to grow a certain way. The reason why cancer cells, seizures, etc are harmful is not because it's harmful to the body. Cells does whatever. Nerves not much different.

It's how they affect us is how it's treated. Someone who is deaf need no more medical attention than I do as vision impaired unless our hearing or sight impairs our day to day life.

@Trailblazer our sexual orientations are not illness or disease one can treat. We can't change someone who is heterosexual to be, I don't know attracted to children (yes... It's extreme but people get killed over others trying to change their sexual orientations. They imprision people for such attractions.)

People who changed from straight to god most likely did by suppressing their attractions and thinking by changing their behavior will change who they are attracted to.

Other straight people have sexual addiction to where they need to see someone to change their attractions as if their attractions to the opposite sex somehow makes them more sex-bound than attracted to someone of the same sex.

Not an analogy. It works both ways.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"Most Great Infallibility from the supreme Manifestation"

It is a wrong understanding that the above passage is about the infallibility of Bahaullah as a messenger, as he has not said it by name for Bahaullah, it is of G-d. Right, please?
Also please provide the reference of the passage to see the context.

Regards

'Supreme Manifestation' in the quote is a reference to the Manifestations of God, and Bahaullah is the latest one in Bahai belief.

In Quran, it is also said, those who obey Muhammad, indeed obey God. Now, if Muhammad was not infallible, how would obedience to Him be the same as obedience to God? Only if there is no difference between God and Muhammad, it can be said, obedience to Muhammad is obedience to God, right?

 

[paarsurrey]

'Supreme Manifestation' in the quote is a reference to the Manifestations of God, and Bahaullah is the latest one in Bahai belief.

In Quran, it is also said, those who obey Muhammad, indeed obey God. Now, if Muhammad was not infallible, how would obedience to Him be the same as obedience to God? Only if there is no difference between God and Muhammad, it can be said, obedience to Muhammad is obedience to God, right?

Please be specific with a quote/verse from Quran for Islam to substantiate one's point of view.

The same way from Baha'ullah, please be specific with a quote from Kitab-i-Aqdas written by Baha'ullah himself as a Law Book.

General understanding of the Bahais about Bahaullah won't serve a meaningful purpose here.

I have read here in these forums that every Bahai has his own independent understanding of Bahaism.

Right, please?
Anybody, please

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"Most Great Infallibility from the supreme Manifestation"

It is a wrong understanding that the above passage is about the infallibility of Bahaullah as a messenger, as he has not said it by name for Bahaullah, it is of G-d. Right, please?
Also please provide the reference of the passage to see the context.

Regards

What I have found is I know very little.

Today 109 new translations have just been released through the Baha'i Library, from those translations you may like this talk, which also is applicable to this subject;

Table talk given by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in ‘Akká

The Three Kinds of Prophets

1QUESTION: HOW MANY kinds of divine Prophets are there?

2Answer: "There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

3Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars."

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Please be specific with a quote/verse from Quran for Islam to substantiate one's point of view.

The same way from Baha'ullah, please be specific with a quote from Kitab-i-Aqdas written by Baha'ullah himself as a Law Book.

General understanding of the Bahais about Bahaullah won't serve a meaningful purpose here.

I have read here in these forums that every Bahai has his own independent understanding of Bahaism.

Right, please?
Anybody, please

Regards

And Allah has revealed to you the Book and Wisdom and has taught you that which you did not know. [4:113]

Hikmah (Wisdom) here is different from the Book (which is referring to Quran), so it is revelation besides the Quran.



And remember the favor of Allah upon you and what has been revealed to you of the Book and wisdom by which He instructs you. [2:231]

And whoever obeys the Messenger, thereby obeys Allâh. (4:80)

Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed.(53:3–4)
This verse say anything prophet says, is a revelation (not just the Quran).

 

[Trailblazer]

The biological attraction between people cannot be changed. Their genitals does not make one set of people a choice and other set another. Thats like saying, you and your wife who attracted to each other, decide to marry, and just turned yourself off to men. Medical and psychological studies of attraction itself just isnt like that. Unless you are attracted to the same sex but prefer to be with someone of the opposite?

The question is whether it is a biological attraction that cannot be changed or a psychological issue, a matter of preference,a free will choice people make.Religion will say one thing science another. That is because religion looks at humans as spiritual beings with free will and science views humans as a biological animal. Nevertheless, I do not think that science has determined thatbiological attraction between people cannot be changed.

I have a personal question for you too and you can quote bahaullah too.

If you wanted to be attracted to someone of your same sex, how would you do it? (You can sleep with anyone, but my question is attraction)

Does abrahamic religions scripture say how people are attracted to who and the logistics behind that attraction?

I do not know what other Abrahamic religions teach about sex. I only know what the Baha’i Faith teaches... Here it is, in a nutshell:

'The Bahá’í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love, companionate marriage and others, all of which it considers positively harmful to man and to the society in which he lives. The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this very purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá’ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.'

"In response to another letter enquiring if there were any legitimate way in which a person could express the sex instinct if, for some reason, he were unable to marry or if outer circumstances such as economic factors were to cause him to delay marriage, the Guardian's secretary wrote on his behalf:

'Concerning your question whether there are any legitimate forms of expression of the sex instinct outside of marriage: According to the Bahá’í Teachings no sexual act can be considered lawful unless performed between lawfully married persons. Outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse. The Bahá’í youth should, on the one hand, be taught the lesson of self-control which, when exercised, undoubtedly has a salutary effect on the development of character and of personality in general, and on the other should be advised, nay even encouraged, to contract marriage while still young and in full possession of their physical vigour. Economic factors, no doubt, are often a serious hindrance to early marriage but in most cases are only an excuse, and as such should not be over stressed.'

"In another letter on the Guardian's behalf, also to an individual believer, the secretary writes:

'Amongst the many other evils afflicting society in this spiritual low water mark in history is the question of immorality, and over-emphasis of sex…'

"This indicates how the whole matter of sex and the problems related to it have assumed far too great an importance in the thinking of present-day society.......

In 'The Advent of Divine Justice', when describing the moral standards that Bahá’ís must uphold both individually and in their community life, the Guardian wrote:

'Such a chaste and holy life, with its implications of modesty, purity, temperance, decency, and clean-mindedness, involves no less than the exercise of moderation in all that pertains to dress, language, amusements, and all artistic and literary avocations. It demands daily vigilance in the control of one's carnal desires and corrupt inclinations.......'

(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, a copy of which was sent to the compiler with a letter dated March 8, 1981)
Lights of Guidance/Chastity and Sex Education - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

If you have a husband or wife, can you make yourself not be attracted to her or him? If so, how? If not, how not?

I do not think one can force “feelings” of attraction to another person or force them not be attracted to another person. However, we can control what we “do” about that attraction. We do not have to act upon it.Humans are spiritual beings, not animals. Our higher self can rule over our physical desires. That is my “take” on it.

If you can, could you list medical sources on human attraction that has nothing to do with heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality, just biological attraction without religious implications.

From a academics site? Research? studies or so have you?

I have not researched anything because sex is not a burning issue for me anymore. I have too many other things I consider far more important. As the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith (Shoghi Effendi) said in the quote above “the whole matter of sex and the problems related to it have assumed far too great an importance in the thinking of present-day society.”

That said, everyone has to live their own life and make their own choices. If sex is important to people, I would never judge them for that. It used to be very important to me but quite a few years ago I realized that my sexual desires came in between me and God and living a spiritual life, so I made a conscious choice not to have sex anymore. It took a while to forget about it, but after I did I was very happy with my choice and I felt freer that I had ever felt in my life. I never had the desire for it again, not even once. That proves it is “possible” for people to contain their desires, if they choose to do so, but if they have no good reason to do so then I see no reason why they would. To give up sex just to give up sex is kind of silly. There has to be a reason.

I am certainly not saying that all people have to give up sex just to be close to God. I am only saying that it made a big difference for me. Everyone is very different regarding what comes in between them and God.

One reason I love the Baha’i Faith so much is because of the very high standards of behavior we are asked to strive for, including living a chaste and holy life. I would never want to be in a religion that did not challenge me to improve my character.

 

[Trailblazer]

Agree. Now please explain to me how exactly the act of sex is divided into moral sex and immoral sex and explain to me how the one became to be immoral and the other moral.

I did not mean to imply that the act of sex is immoral. I used the wrong word because I was on the run, in a hurry to get to work on time. I meant to say unlawful, not immoral.

Certain sexual behavior is unlawful according to religions. However, the laws of religion only apply those who belong to that religion; at least that is the Baha’i view. Maybe other religions teach that everyone should follow their laws, I don’t know.

Changing people's inborn sexual orientation is impossible (apart from a brain transplant).

I am not buying what you say, that sexual orientation is inborn. About six months ago, I rented one of our houses to a tenant who is in his 50s. For most of his life he was married and he had a wife and he has three children. Now, at his age, he has decided he likes to have sex with men and not with women anymore. How do you explain that?

If sexual orientation is inborn, how do you explain bisexuals? That is not at all uncommon.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer our sexual orientations are not illness or disease one can treat. We can't change someone who is heterosexual to be, I don't know attracted to children (yes... It's extreme but people get killed over others trying to change their sexual orientations. They imprision people for such attractions.)

People who changed from straight to god most likely did by suppressing their attractions and thinking by changing their behavior will change who they are attracted to.

I do not necessarily believe that. This whole idea of suppressing our desires comes from psychology. I studied psychology for many years and got an advanced degree and back then I believed like most people in this culture. I do not buy into that anymore, not since I got serious about the Baha’i Faith and read what Baha'u'llah wrote with a serious intent.

Other straight people have sexual addiction to where they need to see someone to change their attractions as if their attractions to the opposite sex somehow makes them more sex-bound than attracted to someone of the same sex.

It makes no difference whatsoever if someone is a homosexual or a heterosexual. People are people and they are all very different. Some people are more focused on sex whereas others are not. I think we need to just let people be who they are. The fact that my religion has certain Laws is separate from my personal feelings about how people should be treated and respected for who they are. I do not think it is fair to say that just because I am a Baha’i I am homophobic. I am not. In fact, I have more respect for a homosexual who is married and having sex than a heterosexual who has sex outside of marriage because. I think it is easier to “choose” to get married than to choose one’s sexual orientation. The homosexual couple has made a commitment whereas the heterosexual couple has not. That says something about the character of the former.

 

[Marcion]

One reason I love the Baha’i Faith so much is because of the very high standards of behavior we are asked to strive for, including living a chaste and holy life. I would never want to be in a religion that did not challenge me to improve my character.

Then you would probably also applaud that married heterosexual couples would rather go for medicallised artificial insemination so that that vile animal act of sexual intercourse could be avoided altogether?

Indian supreme court decriminalises homosexuality

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I cant comment on everything because my brain wont remember unless I break things down in tiny parts.

Your article said sexual attraction can be changed. It isnt specific to action. It says there is no such thing as being born this way.

If what you say now is true, I dont think you understand what the article is proving against.

You say we cant change our physisological and biological attractions just our actions. The article says we are not born this way (so we can change our PB) in order to be attracted to people of the opposite sex. So, according to the article, you can change your PB as well as I can so w can both act in a manner congruent to heterosexual norms.

Thats rediculous. You can have homosexual sex and not be homosexual. Likwise, I can have heterosexual sex, that doesnt make me straight.

If you believe we only control our actions, which I agree, the article is not supporting your views.

Also you must must must separate your quotes. I know youre used to it, but its a waste of time for you if you actualy want me to reply according to your quotes. I cant comment on your quotes when they are bundle up in its own essay.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I do not necessarily believe that. This whole idea of suppressing our desires comes from psychology. I studied psychology for many years and got an advanced degree and back then I believed like most people in this culture. I do not buy into that anymore, not since I got serious about the Baha’i Faith and read what Baha'u'llah wrote with a serious intent.

It makes no difference whatsoever if someone is a homosexual or a heterosexual. People are people and they are all very different. Some people are more focused on sex whereas others are not. I think we need to just let people be who they are. The fact that my religion has certain Laws is separate from my personal feelings about how people should be treated and respected for who they are. I do not think it is fair to say that just because I am a Baha’i I am homophobic. I am not. In fact, I have more respect for a homosexual who is married and having sex than a heterosexual who has sex outside of marriage because. I think it is easier to “choose” to get married than to choose one’s sexual orientation. The homosexual couple has made a commitment whereas the heterosexual couple has not. That says something about the character of the former.

Youre article doesnt relect your posts. Every LGTQ (rather than homosexual; attraction to all people is normal regardless the sex. We are human) has their own view of homophobia. Of course, the common denominator is distaste for LGBTQ rights (not homosexual) and love between two people. I dont care about bahai views. Like christianity, you believe in actions can be changed attraction cannot. But your article said attraction: Born this Way is not true.

Thats what Im commenting on. Your article and post dont line up.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I did not mean to imply that the act of sex is immoral. I used the wrong word because I was on the run, in a hurry to get to work on time. I meant to say unlawful, not immoral.

Certain sexual behavior is unlawful according to religions. However, the laws of religion only apply those who belong to that religion; at least that is the Baha’i view. Maybe other religions teach that everyone should follow their laws, I don’t know.

I am not buying what you say, that sexual orientation is inborn. About six months ago, I rented one of our houses to a tenant who is in his 50s. For most of his life he was married and he had a wife and he has three children. Now, at his age, he has decided he likes to have sex with men and not with women anymore. How do you explain that?

If sexual orientation is inborn, how do you explain bisexuals? That is not at all uncommon.

Is he attracted to men or just like having sex with them?

There's a difference.

Edit.

For example, my best friend for so far thirteen years dated before. She wanted to have children. She literally wanted to have sex with a man (act) in order to have a child. She said it was fine but her attraction: spiritual, mental, emotional, physical attraction is only to a female. While anyone can be stimulated by any other person if their brain wasn't bias to who is who, that doesn't mean our minds and brains are. Being gay or straight isn't just about ones physical stimulation. People do that by masturbating. It goes beyond that.

Was he attracted to men? Or did he just like the sex but still like women?

Just rephrasing the question. I know it's not for me but just seeing if you understood the difference. Not knowing about something can develop negative views over something that's just not understood especially from a "human" point of view rather than academic.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then you would probably also applaud that married heterosexual couples would rather go for medicallised artificial insemination so that that vile animal act of sexual intercourse could be avoided altogether?

That is a straw man. There is nothing "vile" about sexual intercourse:

'The Bahá’í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love, companionate marriage and others, all of which it considers positively harmful to man and to the society in which he lives. The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this very purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá’ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.'
(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, a copy of which was sent to the compiler with a letter dated March 8, 1981)

Lights of Guidance/Chastity and Sex Education - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

Indian supreme court decriminalises homosexuality

Good.

 

[Marcion]

That is a straw man. There is nothing "vile" about sexual intercourse:

Indeed, so we agree on that.
So then why should you forbid any kind of sexual intercourse as "illegitimate or unproper"? What is your rationally motivated justification for making any kind of distinction between one type of sexual intercourse and another if people are in a steady respectable relationship?

 

[paarsurrey]

That is a straw man. There is nothing "vile" about sexual intercourse:

'The Bahá’í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love, companionate marriage and others, all of which it considers positively harmful to man and to the society in which he lives. The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this very purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá’ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.'
(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, a copy of which was sent to the compiler with a letter dated March 8, 1981)

Lights of Guidance/Chastity and Sex Education - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith
Good.

"The Bahá’ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.' " Unquote

It is a good and peaceful teaching.
Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

"The Bahá’ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.' " Unquote

It is a good and peaceful teaching.
Regards

Unless you're gay, Paar. Then you have to be celibate. What is the Ammadiya view on LGBT?

 

[CG Didymus]

That is a straw man. There is nothing "vile" about sexual intercourse:

'The Bahá’í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love, companionate marriage and others, all of which it considers positively harmful to man and to the society in which he lives. The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this very purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá’ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.'
(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, a copy of which was sent to the compiler with a letter dated March 8, 1981)

Lights of Guidance/Chastity and Sex Education - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith
Good.

But Muhammad and Baha'u'llah had multiple wives. So God does change his mind about what is "moral"?