Infallibility

[CG Didymus]

I do not know if you are referring to heterosexual vs. homosexual intercourse.Assuming you are referring to both, the answer is in that quote I posted. Note the bolded words:

'The Bahá’í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love, companionate marriage and others, all of which it considers positively harmful to man and to the society in which he lives. The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this very purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá’ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.'
(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, a copy of which was sent to the compiler with a letter dated March 8, 1981)
Lights of Guidance/Chastity and Sex Education - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith​

Why do you think it is “rational” for people to have sex with anyone they want to, with no restrictions? If someone loves someone and is in a steady respectable relationship, why not get married?

Why not just lay our cards on the table? The “reason” people want to have no holds barred is because sex feels good and people like to feel good.Moreover, many people do not want the commitment that comes with marriage. They do not see any harm in having sex out of wedlock because they think it is harmless, that it hurts nobody. But it is harmful to society because it has an effect upon families and the family is the most basic unit of society, the bedrock upon which it rests.

From the Book of Laws which is the Most Holy Book of the Baha’i Faith:

“The Bahá’í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Bahá’í law thus restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.” The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 223​

Having sex out of wedlock is also harmful to individuals even though they do not realize it. If it was not harmful to individuals and/or to society, God would not have revealed Laws disallowing premarital sex in the Bible, the Qur’an and the Writings of Baha’u’llah. Do you think you know more than an All-Knowing and All-Wise God about what is good for people?

Limiting sexual activity to marriage between a man and a woman is certainly not popular nowadays, even among many religious people, but it is what God has ordained through religious Laws. If you do not believe in God and are not a member of a religion there is no reason to adhere to any religious Laws, so why not just let religious people decide for themselves what is right for them?Why don’t we have a right to our opinion without getting swarmed and called irrational or unfair, just because we want to maintain high standards of behavior? We are not legislating on anyone’s behavior, there is no law against sex out of marriage, and in fact all the laws are changing to be in favor of homosexuals. Popular opinion has won out over the Laws of God.

When have religious laws about sex ever worked on the majority of people? Including religious people? Including religious leaders? Why did God change his mind and allow multiple spouses in some religions? If it had anything to do with the culture of the people, then why didn't God consider the needs of modern society?

Do you really think the laws of the Baha'i Faith regarding sex will work? Are they working amongst the Baha'is? In the past religions they had the death penalty attached to, and it still didn't stop it. So what is the penalty prescribed by the Baha'i Faith?

 

[CG Didymus]

What does multiple wives have to do with morality? That was the custom in Islam. You need not assume it has anything to do with sex, but that is what people assume in this culture where sex predominates peoples' minds..

Yes, religious laws do change over time. In Islam men were allowed to have up to four wives. In the Baha'i Faith only one wife is allowed. Baha'u'llah took His wives before He wrote His Book of Laws so He was not subject to Baha'i Law.

The point was that God changed his mind. Doesn't that make it a changeable "social" law? So what about the social laws of the current society? Strict moral laws didn't work and aren't working for Christianity and especially with Catholics, so what makes it different for the Baha'is? Will they be able to abide by those rules of moral behavior?

 

[Trailblazer]

Isn't God the one who made the hormones and made sex feel good? And then, complains when people find different ways to enjoy it?

God made it feel good to ensure continuation of the species, and there is no reason to think that God did it for any other reason, especially given what it says in scriptures...

God is not complaining about anything. God just warns us through the scriptures what can happen if we savourest the things that are not of God, but are rather of men:

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
​

The purpose of our existence is not to feel good physically. That is transitory happiness; here today, gone tomorrow. In short, it is a complete waste of a human life.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5​

 

[CG Didymus]

Your link mentioned there is no such thing as Born This Way. Born this


Your article says that there is no such thing as being Born

This Way. What’s most amazing to me about the “born gay” phenomenon is that the scientific evidence for it is thin as a reed, yet it doesn’t matter. It’s an idea with such social utility that one doesn’t need much evidence in order to make it attractive and credible…

We (homosexuals) can change our psysiological and biological attractions because thats what Born this Way means. We cannot; the article argues against that.

In that same post, first paragraph 321, you said it cannot. We can change our behaviors, I agree. A lot of people who give us the benefit of the doubt, we agree you cant change, but then we stand on a wall because we are denied to be with the person we love. It goes beyond psyiological and biological attractions. We are Born to Love. So, going against actions is like telling a straight married couple they cant have sex, attraction is enough.

But your article doesnt reflect your points. Born this Way means we are biologically and psychologically attracted to people. Regardles our sex and gender, humans are attracted to other humans.

Why the conflicting views? I know in Catholicism (just information) they explain it as -we agree you cant change but youre disordered so you are tempted to. You have more temptation than the average straight Joe Smoe- like a person at an AA meeting or something.

I dont know if Bahai, Muslims, or Jews sees us as disabled. Some non-theists do too. -Shrugs-

But, can you explain how the rejection of Born This Way reflects your views that we are regardless our actions?

90% of why I squelched any homosexual feelings was because religion said it was sinful and homosexuals would be sent to hell. What would happen if religion put no stigma on it? If it was normal and acceptable for people to do if they so desired? But, supposedly, it's not religion but the infallible God that hates it.

 

[CG Didymus]

I really do not consider sex out of wedlock immoral. To me immoral means hating, judging, killing, stealing, lying, being selfish, stuff like that. Sex is just sex. If one's religion teaches or has laws that we are supposed to have sex only in wedlock, then I think we should follow those teachings or laws, but if people do not even believe in God I do not think those laws apply to them.

It is a Baha'i belief that in the distant future, everyone will believe in God and adhere to one religion, and by then people will be able to follow the laws, but we are not at that point yet. Most people do not even understand why the laws of religion are important, so why would they follow them? Yesterday I was talking to my Christian coworker about a Bahai Law and she considered it strange.Christianity is a lawless religion because they believe they are saved by grace alone, but the Bahai Faith is a religion of laws. This is all new to most people so it seems strange.

Christians do try to follow most Bible laws, but following laws is not what saves them. Since, they believe nobody but Jesus was able to perfectly follow God's law, so everybody else would fall short and their righteousness is like filthy rags to God. All they have to do is believe in Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross, and their sins will be forgiven. Pretty cool huh? Or, pretty dumb and weird?

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't think you see it, but judging doesn't need to be negative. A lot of religions by their nature insults the person beside it. Some believers know and are honest about it like JW, but others are ignorant of it.

When you have all people believe in one god, that, in itself, is negative because that belief it only benefits the people who believe it without giving any thought to the other persons well-being.

People have been killed over that type of thinking. Descrimination has as well. It doesnt need to be an act pressure from baha, words can be more harmful than actions. It doesn't need to be historical.

I can't cure the world but it's very sad and tiresome seeing how people's beliefs affect others. I wish I were an activist sometimes but I'm not one to educate/evangelize or carry signs to make change.

You are obviously a very nice, thoughtful, honest and spiritual person. Too bad some religions say God doesn't like your sexual orientation.

 

[Trailblazer]

When have religious laws about sex ever worked on the majority of people? Including religious people? Including religious leaders?

They have not worked because sex is what people want more than anything else. They do not give a rip if God does not think it is in their best interest, all they care about is what feels good in the moment. I find it extremely sad that so many people are so attached that that which perishes. In every new age God tries to tell people that they are bartering away their eternal life for things of the flesh but but most people are hopelessly lost in self and desire.

Why did God change his mind and allow multiple spouses in some religions? If it had anything to do with the culture of the people, then why didn't God consider the needs of modern society?

Multiple spouses were allowed in the past because that was according to the needs of those times, to protect women. Since single women could not survive in those cultures in those days they needed a husband to protect them. That is no longer necessary in modern society since women can become educated, earn a living and fend for themselves.

Do you really think the laws of the Baha'i Faith regarding sex will work? Are they working amongst the Baha'is? In the past religions they had the death penalty attached to, and it still didn't stop it. So what is the penalty prescribed by the Baha'i Faith?

Do you even hear yourself talking? If they still did it knowing there was a death penalty attached to it, what does that tell you? It tells you they are so attached to sex that it is more important than life. Don't you even see that as sad? This tells you that sex is a serious addiction. It is now and always has been. That is why God has to reveal Laws.

I do not know what other Baha'is do, I only know what I do. If the Baha'is are not following the Baha'i Laws on sex I consider them hypocrites. The same applies to Christians. They know what Jesus and Paul said, yet they make a mockery out of the Christian religion by living together out of wedlock. To me that says that sex is more important to them than God.

There is no penalty that I know of for breaking Baha'i Laws on sexual matters. The most that can happen is that if they are flagrant about being homosexual they might have their voting rights taken away. The same could apply to those heterosexual couples who live together out of wedlock. I consider this a rather light punishment. These Baha'is make the Bahai Faith look bad to outsiders by their flagrant disregard for Baha'i Laws. The Baha'i Faith is a religion of Laws. If these Baha'is don't "like" the Laws, maybe they should drop out.

 

[Trailblazer]

The point was that God changed his mind. Doesn't that make it a changeable "social" law? So what about the social laws of the current society? Strict moral laws didn't work and aren't working for Christianity and especially with Catholics, so what makes it different for the Baha'is? Will they be able to abide by those rules of moral behavior?

God can change His Mind whenever he wants to because God is Omnipotent.
What God reveals is not about what "works" for humans. It is about what is in the best interest of humans. The fact that people cannot obey the Laws is no reason for God to change them. What, is God supposed to lower His Standards to accommodate human perversity? No, I don't think so.

I do not know what Baha'is are doing or what they will be able to do. I only know a few Baha'is on forums, but from the way some of them talk about sex I wonder if they ever even read what Baha'u'llah wrote.
Yes, it is going to be a long time before people can follow the Laws of God. That won't happen until they love God more than self.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

90% of why I squelched any homosexual feelings was because religion said it was sinful and homosexuals would be sent to hell. What would happen if religion put no stigma on it? If it was normal and acceptable for people to do if they so desired? But, supposedly, it's not religion but the infallible God that hates it.

Probably. I dont know. When I was a practicing Catholic, no one told me about going to hell or anything. Priests were nice and the congragents were pretty healthy with their views. What I didnt like is the undertone. Then when I read the CCC, and got to know more about what some Catholics are cons-about, I backed off. For me, its what they dont say rather than what they do. Its hard to stay in a community when the undertone is we like you but not that much.

Its one thing if it were an organization. But LGBTQ Catholics really do believe in god. Ive even known some Catholics that dont think those two are inseperable.

 

[Trailblazer]

Christians do try to follow most Bible laws, but following laws is not what saves them. Since, they believe nobody but Jesus was able to perfectly follow God's law, so everybody else would fall short and their righteousness is like filthy rags to God. All they have to do is believe in Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross, and their sins will be forgiven. Pretty cool huh? Or, pretty dumb and weird?

I think it is despicable actually. It is just an excuse to do whatever they want to do.
It is also based upon false doctrines of the Church so they are not saved at all.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You are obviously a very nice, thoughtful, honest and spiritual person. Too bad some religions say God doesn't like your sexual orientation.

Thanks. Yeah. For me its annoying; but, I cant imagine other LGBTQ people in these religions who feel god is seeing them one thing when god could be telling him or her something else. I mean when people have such a strong belief in god, it really tears them up they arent accepted by their religious community.

I wish I knew how to approach it since I do want to help youth, but the religious experience I havent gone through. So, I do what I can.

 

[CG Didymus]

God made it feel good to ensure continuation of the species, and there is no reason to think that God did it for any other reason, especially given what it says in scriptures...

God is not complaining about anything. God just warns us through the scriptures what can happen if we savourest the things that are not of God, but are rather of men:

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
​

The purpose of our existence is not to feel good physically. That is transitory happiness; here today, gone tomorrow. In short, it is a complete waste of a human life.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5​

God doesn't complain about human behavior he thinks is immoral?

Before Muhammad and Baha'u'llah, what knowledge and strict observance of God did Christianity teach that ended up being true? And like I've said before, strict observance of God's laws prior to Jesus included stoning people to death for adultery. Did it stop the behavior? Or did it make religious people try and hide their behavior? Making them hypocrites.

So again I ask, when has these supposed laws of God ever worked? And strict observance leads to strict enforcement. So what is the Baha'i leadership going to do? What is the punishment going to be for sexual behavior violations? What is right now?

 

[CG Didymus]

God can change His Mind whenever he wants to because God is Omnipotent.
What God reveals is not about what "works" for humans. It is about what is in the best interest of humans. The fact that people cannot obey the Laws is no reason for God to change them. What, is God supposed to lower His Standards to accommodate human perversity? No, I don't think so.

I do not know what Baha'is are doing or what they will be able to do. I only know a few Baha'is on forums, but from the way some of them talk about sex I wonder if they ever even read what Baha'u'llah wrote.
Yes, it is going to be a long time before people can follow the Laws of God. That won't happen until they love God more than self.

When I first got involved with people that were Baha'is, a book came out called "Unrestrained as the Wind" as I recall doing sexual things by yourself was also against the rules. Is that true? And, if it is, would you expect that any Baha'i youth is able to abide by that rule? But then once they find someone and get married, can they touch themselves then or is it still wrong? And, they can only be sexually stimulated by their partner? But then that is only for pleasure, so should they only touch each other when it leads to sex for the purpose of having a baby?

 

[CG Didymus]

I think it is despicable actually. It is just an excuse to do whatever they want to do.
It is also based upon false doctrines of the Church so they are not saved at all.

But that's what lots of Christians believe. They say the NT teaches that. And, because they believe the NT is the "infallible" Word of God, they follow it. From what the NT actually says, where did hey go wrong?

 

[CG Didymus]

Thanks. Yeah. For me its annoying; but, I cant imagine other LGBTQ people in these religions who feel god is seeing them one thing when god could be telling him or her something else. I mean when people have such a strong belief in god, it really tears them up they arent accepted by their religious community.

I wish I knew how to approach it since I do want to help youth, but the religious experience I havent gone through. So, I do what I can.

I've got to think that gays within the Baha'i will be pushed back into the closet, rather than get "help" for their "sickness". But it sounds like any that enjoys so too much, in any way that isn't acceptable under Baha'i law, is not living for God, but living for themselves and their desires. Which essentially means those desires are evil. At least the Baha'i don't have a hell to send these people to.

 

[Vinayaka]

I've got to think that gays within the Baha'i will be pushed back into the closet, rather than get "help" for their "sickness".

In most cases, I believe gays would quietly slink out the door.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In most cases, I believe gays would quietly slink out the door.

While saying, "take care and much love" on the way out.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I've got to think that gays within the Baha'i will be pushed back into the closet, rather than get "help" for their "sickness".

Pretty much. What I dont care for is the contradiction. You cant help people come to god when you see them as temptation-to-sin more than their counterparts. Then deny this is so but deny them marriage at the same time.

At least the Baha'i don't have a hell to send these people t

True. I like the directness and honesty. Thats why I respect JW. Thr problem for me isn't the beliefs. I understand the spiritual meaning of marriage between male and female. What I dont like is having a second option of celibacy and programs that change people to what they feel is considered normal. Sometimes education helps a little but if it challenges their beliefs, its tolerance not one love.

 

[Vinayaka]

While saying, "take care and much love" on the way out.

No, it'd probably be 'hearing', not 'saying'.

 

[Trailblazer]

So again I ask, when has these supposed laws of God ever worked? And strict observance leads to strict enforcement. So what is the Baha'i leadership going to do? What is the punishment going to be for sexual behavior violations? What is right now?

I have no idea if there will be any punishment for sexual behavior infractions by the Bahai leadership or what that punishment would be.

It is irrelevant whether the Laws work or not. God is not going to lower His Standards to human standards. If people do not adhere to the Laws, they are the losers. God cannot lose because God does not need anything from humans. All the Teachings and Laws of religion are for human benefit.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 140​

When we do what God enjoins us to do we benefit from it. I can testify to that. My life has completely changed since I cam back to the Baha'i Faith six years ago because I am now aware of the teachings and Laws of Baha'u'llah and I try to adhere to them. Before that I just lived for myself and I was not improving my character at all. I have grown more spiritually in the past six years than I have in my entire life. I still have a long way to go but the journey will never end because there will always be room for improvement.

"Our past is not the thing that matters so much in this world as what we intend to do with our future. The inestimable value of religion is that when a man is vitally connected with it, through a real and living belief in it and in the Prophet Who brought it, he receives a strength greater than his own which helps him to develop his good characteristics and overcome his bad ones. The whole purpose of religion is to change not only our thoughts but our acts; when we believe in God and His Prophet and His Teachings, we find we are growing, even though we perhaps thought ourselves incapable of growth and change!"
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 3, 1943)
Lights of Guidance (second part)​