Infallibility

[siti]

Dear God - you guys really have no idea what he was talking about do you? The Bab was already dead so it wasn't about persecutions against him. Baha'u'llah had not yet "Manifested" himself so there were no Baha'is - so it couldn't be about persecution of them either. In fact it was written whilst Baha'u'llah was in Baghdad - personally I reckon probably in his second stint in that city. So what are the facts surrounding the writing of the tablet, Gems of Divine Mysteries?

1. Baha'u'llah had gone to Baghdad under the protection of the Russian embassy - his brother in law (if I recall correctly) was an official of the Russian ambassador in Baghdad and Baha'u'llah lived in his house.
2. Baha'u'llah had spent a couple of years whirling and Sufi-ing in Kurdistan - look it up
3. When he came back, the Babis were in disarray and despondency - many of them having fled "persecution" in Persia following two failed Babi attempts to assassinate the Shah under Mirza Yahya's leadership - Mirza Yahya was the Bab's chosen successor but at this point was in hiding because he was probably the orchestrator of both assassination attempts
4. Baha'u'llah assumed leadership of the Babi movement and as the leader of a religious sect that had twice made attempts on the life of the Shah, the Persian government wanted him extradited to face trial in Tehran...but for Russian diplomatic efforts, the Ottomans might well have extradited him. But he certainly was not in a position to return home to Persia.

So when he wrote "Encompassed as I am at this time by the dogs of the earth and the beasts of every land, concealed as I remain in the hidden habitation of Mine inner Being, forbidden as I may be from divulging that which God hath bestowed upon Me..." - he was bemoaning the fact that he was not free to move around and preach Babi-ism (the tablet is an answer to a question about how the Bab could have been the promised Mahdi) because he was a fugitive from the law of the "dogs of the earth" and the "beasts of every land" - aka the Persian government and others who thought that the Babis should be held to account for their treasonous and murderous plots and that their leaders should likewise face justice for leading them to revolt against the Shah and his government.

Like you said - context is important.

 

[Dawnofhope]

3. When he came back, the Babis were in disarray and despondency - many of them having fled "persecution" in Persia following two failed Babi attempts to assassinate the Shah under Mirza Yahya's leadership - Mirza Yahya was the Bab's chosen successor but at this point was in hiding because he was probably the orchestrator of both assassination attempts

I had understood there to be just one assassination attempt conducted by two Babis of their own volition. What’s the other assassination attempt and what’s the evidence it was orchestrated by any Babi leader?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

....under Mirza Yahya's leadership - Mirza Yahya was the Bab's chosen successor ....

You may find this interesting:

"In brief outline the narrative is this. For some while He wandered about in those districts. After the death of the late prince Muḥammad Sháh He returned to Ṭihrán, having in His mind [the intention of] corresponding and entering into relations with the Báb. The medium of this correspondence was the celebrated Mullá ‘Abdu’l-Karím of Qazvín, who was the Báb’s mainstay and trusted intimate. Now since a great celebrity had been attained for Bahá’u’lláh in Ṭihrán, and the hearts of men were disposed towards Him, He, together with Mullá ‘Abdu’l-Karím, considered it as expedient that, in face of the agitation amongst the doctors, the aggressiveness of the greater part of [the people of] Persia, and the irresistible power of the Amír-Nizám, whereby both the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh were in great danger and liable to incur severe punishment, some measure should be adopted to direct the thoughts of men towards some absent person, by which means Bahá’u’lláh would remain protected from the interference of all men. And since further, having regard to sundry considerations, they did not consider an outsider as suitable, they cast the lot of this augury to the name of Bahá’u’lláh’s brother Mírzá Yaḥyá.
By the assistance and instruction of Bahá’u’lláh, therefore, they made him notorious and famous on the tongues of friends and foes, and wrote letters, ostensibly at his dictation, to the Báb. And since secret correspondences were in process the Báb highly approved of this scheme. So Mírzá Yaḥyá was
concealed and hidden while mention of him was on the tongues and in the mouths of men. And this mighty plan was of wondrous efficacy, for Bahá’u’lláh, though He was known and seen, remained safe and secure, and this veil was the cause that no one outside [the sect] fathomed the matter or fell into the idea of molestation, until Bahá’u’lláh quitted Ṭihrán at the permission of the King and was permitted to withdraw to the Supreme Shrines."

Abdulbaha, a traveller narrative

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So when he wrote "Encompassed as I am at this time by the dogs of the earth and the beasts of every land, concealed as I remain in the hidden habitation of Mine inner Being, forbidden as I may be from divulging that which God hath bestowed upon Me..." - he was bemoaning the fact that he was not free to move around and preach Babi-ism (the tablet is an answer to a question about how the Bab could have been the promised Mahdi) because he was a fugitive from the law of the "dogs of the earth" and the "beasts of every land" - aka the Persian government and others who thought that the Babis should be held to account for their treasonous and murderous plots and that their leaders should likewise face justice for leading them to revolt against the Shah and his government.

Like you said - context is important.

When Bahaullah wrote the Gems of divine mysteries, His mission as a new Manifestation had already begun. His mission began when He was in the prison of siah Chal, in Tehran, which symbolically marked by the vision of the maiden He had in the Shah Chal. So, when Bahaullah says He is surrounded by the dogs, He is probably talking about the religious leaders around Him. So, if He was to declare openly to the public that He has a new Revelation, it would not be wise yet. It is interesting that Christ enemies are also called dogs in the Bible.

 

[siti]

You may find this interesting:

Interesting indeed - where is this from? Essentially it says that Baha'u'llah lied through his teeth about the leadership of the Babi movement - with the express (though secret) approval of the Bab himself (who was in prison at that time). This is about the situation of the Babis in Tehran in the late 1840s - the tablet under discussion was written in Baghdad between 1853 and 1863. A lot of water had passed under the bridge in between - but it is certainly interesting that there is evidence of Baha'u'llah himself already unashamedly engaging in calculated subterfuge as early as that.

I'm guessing that the point of you posting this was to show that in fact the Bab had favoured Baha'u'llah as leader and the idea of Mirza Yahya's appointment by the Bab was a ruse to throw the government authorities off the trail. Of course it would have suited Baha'u'llah to maintain that deception, especially after the first attempt to assassinate the Shah had failed and the perpetrators had been arrested and put to death.

But what does all that sum up to? It tells us that from before the Bab's execution in 1850, the leadership of the Babi movement was based on a deliberate lie - one way or the other. And out of that lie emerged the leaders of two new religious movements - Baha'u'llah and Subh-i-Azal. So the question you must then ask is: what else did they lie about?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Interesting indeed - where is this from? Essentially it says that Baha'u'llah lied through his teeth about the leadership of the Babi movement - with the express (though secret) approval of the Bab himself (who was in prison at that time). This is about the situation of the Babis in Tehran in the late 1840s - the tablet under discussion was written in Baghdad between 1853 and 1863. A lot of water had passed under the bridge in between - but it is certainly interesting that there is evidence of Baha'u'llah himself already unashamedly engaging in calculated subterfuge as early as that.

I'm guessing that the point of you posting this was to show that in fact the Bab had favoured Baha'u'llah as leader and the idea of Mirza Yahya's appointment by the Bab was a ruse to throw the government authorities off the trail. Of course it would have suited Baha'u'llah to maintain that deception, especially after the first attempt to assassinate the Shah had failed and the perpetrators had been arrested and put to death.

But what does all that sum up to? It tells us that from before the Bab's execution in 1850, the leadership of the Babi movement was based on a deliberate lie - one way or the other. And out of that lie emerged the leaders of two new religious movements - Baha'u'llah and Subh-i-Azal. So the question you must then ask is: what else did they lie about?

The plan that was made, reminds me of this verse of Quran:

"...those who disbelieved plotted against you to restrain you or kill you or evict you .But they plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners."

 

[siti]

He is probably talking about the religious leaders around Him. So, if He was to declare openly to the public that He has a new Revelation, it would not be wise yet. It is interesting that Christ enemies are also called dogs in the Bible.

Indeed - IT - you do have a propensity for raising interesting points...so despite a succession of successive "Manifestations" in between - Muhammad, the Bab and now - by the 1850s - Baha'u'llah himself, there has been no discernible spiritual advancement in terms of "loving one's enemies" (as Christ commanded) in the more than 18 centuries between Christ and Baha'u'llah? Indeed - in view of the manner in which Jesus himself seems to have expressed himself (Matthew 5:44; Luke 23:34) and the manner in which Baha'u'llah did in Gems of Divine Mysteries (for example), there seems to have been considerable spiritual retrogression - even among the Manifestations themselves wouldn't you say?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Indeed - IT - you do have a propensity for raising interesting points...so despite a succession of successive "Manifestations" in between - Muhammad, the Bab and now - by the 1850s - Baha'u'llah himself, there has been no discernible spiritual advancement in terms of "loving one's enemies" (as Christ commanded) in the more than 18 centuries between Christ and Baha'u'llah? Indeed - in view of the manner in which Jesus himself seems to have expressed himself (Matthew 5:44; Luke 23:34) and the manner in which Baha'u'llah did in Gems of Divine Mysteries (for example), there seems to have been considerable spiritual retrogression - even among the Manifestations themselves wouldn't you say?

Indeed. Each of the Manifestations had specific missions according the requirements of the time, They appeared. Jesus said, if they slap your face, show them the other side. Bahaullah wrote, if a king rises against another nation, all other kings must unite and rise against him.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@siti here is the verse I was referring to, in the Bible:

"For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet."

 

[loverofhumanity]

Dear God - you guys really have no idea what he was talking about do you? The Bab was already dead so it wasn't about persecutions against him. Baha'u'llah had not yet "Manifested" himself so there were no Baha'is - so it couldn't be about persecution of them either. In fact it was written whilst Baha'u'llah was in Baghdad - personally I reckon probably in his second stint in that city. So what are the facts surrounding the writing of the tablet, Gems of Divine Mysteries?

1. Baha'u'llah had gone to Baghdad under the protection of the Russian embassy - his brother in law (if I recall correctly) was an official of the Russian ambassador in Baghdad and Baha'u'llah lived in his house.
2. Baha'u'llah had spent a couple of years whirling and Sufi-ing in Kurdistan - look it up
3. When he came back, the Babis were in disarray and despondency - many of them having fled "persecution" in Persia following two failed Babi attempts to assassinate the Shah under Mirza Yahya's leadership - Mirza Yahya was the Bab's chosen successor but at this point was in hiding because he was probably the orchestrator of both assassination attempts
4. Baha'u'llah assumed leadership of the Babi movement and as the leader of a religious sect that had twice made attempts on the life of the Shah, the Persian government wanted him extradited to face trial in Tehran...but for Russian diplomatic efforts, the Ottomans might well have extradited him. But he certainly was not in a position to return home to Persia.

So when he wrote "Encompassed as I am at this time by the dogs of the earth and the beasts of every land, concealed as I remain in the hidden habitation of Mine inner Being, forbidden as I may be from divulging that which God hath bestowed upon Me..." - he was bemoaning the fact that he was not free to move around and preach Babi-ism (the tablet is an answer to a question about how the Bab could have been the promised Mahdi) because he was a fugitive from the law of the "dogs of the earth" and the "beasts of every land" - aka the Persian government and others who thought that the Babis should be held to account for their treasonous and murderous plots and that their leaders should likewise face justice for leading them to revolt against the Shah and his government.

Like you said - context is important.

My point is that His reference to dogs and beasts was referring to His oppression and not used to describe every non believer.

 

[siti]

@siti here is the verse I was referring to, in the Bible:

"For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet."

That's from the Psalms (22 if I recall) - it is clearly poetic and Jesus certainly didn't write or say those words about anyone. Anyway - I'm getting a bit bored with this side topic - my point in the first place was merely to point out that despite the Baha'i denial of it earlier in this thread, Baha'u'llah did indeed use derogatory remarks likening his enemies to animals. It is interesting that deception has been part and parcel of the Baha'i dispensation since before its actual inception in 1863. As far as I can tell not much has changed.

 

[siti]

My point is that His reference to dogs and beasts was referring to His oppression and not used to describe every non believer.

And my point is that your original claim that he didn't use such words and that the instances that had been referred to were probably mistranslations was false. And it was indeed false - but what we have gleaned in the process of establishing that is also valuable - it seems that knowingly making false statements has been a key part of the Babi/Bahai religion since the 1840s.

 

[siti]

I had understood there to be just one assassination attempt conducted by two Babis of their own volition. What’s the other assassination attempt and what’s the evidence it was orchestrated by any Babi leader?

Hmmm! I think I may have to apologize for this one. I got it from Wikipedia's Baha'u'llah page where it says (with my emphasis):

Mirza Yahya had married the widow of the Báb against the Báb's clear instructions;[10] dispatched followers to the province of Nur for the second attempt on the life of the Shah;[32] and instigated violence against prominent Bábís who had challenged his leadership.

Bahá'u'lláh - Wikipedia

The reference given for the "second attempt on the life of the Shah" is Peter Smith's 1987 book The Babi and Baha’i Religions: From Messianic Shi`ism to a World Religion, page 60 - but I haven't been able to verify that this is what the book really says - I haven't found a copy yet - so it might be a misinterpretation...I honestly don't know and I should have checked it first.

All that said, one attempted assassination or two...the fact remains that the most likely interpretation of Baha'u'llah's "dogs of the earth" remark is as a reference to his political "tormentors" - who else? And he certainly wrote it and intended it as an insulting reference to his enemies. And it was the denial of this fact that I was originally objecting to.

 

[danieldemol]

Interesting indeed - where is this from? Essentially it says that Baha'u'llah lied through his teeth about the leadership of the Babi movement - with the express (though secret) approval of the Bab himself (who was in prison at that time). This is about the situation of the Babis in Tehran in the late 1840s - the tablet under discussion was written in Baghdad between 1853 and 1863. A lot of water had passed under the bridge in between - but it is certainly interesting that there is evidence of Baha'u'llah himself already unashamedly engaging in calculated subterfuge as early as that.

I'm guessing that the point of you posting this was to show that in fact the Bab had favoured Baha'u'llah as leader and the idea of Mirza Yahya's appointment by the Bab was a ruse to throw the government authorities off the trail. Of course it would have suited Baha'u'llah to maintain that deception, especially after the first attempt to assassinate the Shah had failed and the perpetrators had been arrested and put to death.

But what does all that sum up to? It tells us that from before the Bab's execution in 1850, the leadership of the Babi movement was based on a deliberate lie - one way or the other. And out of that lie emerged the leaders of two new religious movements - Baha'u'llah and Subh-i-Azal. So the question you must then ask is: what else did they lie about?

One could ask of those who lied to the gestapo to smuggle Jews out of Germany that what else did they lie about, or one could adopt a more pragmatic approach and see that it is not always wrong to mislead a tyrant.

Also, as I understand it, the Babi writings never made Subh-i-Azhal on an equal footing with “Him whom God will make manifest” so it was a purely nominal appointment made to the time of the revealing of Baha’u’llah’s great station.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hmmm! I think I may have to apologize for this one. I got it from Wikipedia's Baha'u'llah page where it says (with my emphasis):

Mirza Yahya had married the widow of the Báb against the Báb's clear instructions;[10] dispatched followers to the province of Nur for the second attempt on the life of the Shah;[32] and instigated violence against prominent Bábís who had challenged his leadership.

Bahá'u'lláh - Wikipedia

The reference given for the "second attempt on the life of the Shah" is Peter Smith's 1987 book The Babi and Baha’i Religions: From Messianic Shi`ism to a World Religion, page 60 - but I haven't been able to verify that this is what the book really says - I haven't found a copy yet - so it might be a misinterpretation...I honestly don't know and I should have checked it first.

All that said, one attempted assassination or two...the fact remains that the most likely interpretation of Baha'u'llah's "dogs of the earth" remark is as a reference to his political "tormentors" - who else? And he certainly wrote it and intended it as an insulting reference to his enemies. And it was the denial of this fact that I was originally objecting to.

Its just one attempt I believe. I've never heard of a second.

The Baha'is are very open about this aspect of our history. It is recorded on our bahai.org website:

The Bábís had continuously emphasized that their sole concern was to proclaim the new spiritual and social teachings revealed by the Báb. At the same time, they believed that it was their duty to defend themselves and their families, provided they did not engage in acts of aggression. Once the guiding hands of those who understood the Báb’s message were withdrawn by such brutal repression, it was predictable that volatile elements among the Bábís might prove unable to maintain the original discipline.


This proved to be the case when on 15 August 1852, two Bábís fired a pistol at the Shah. The king escaped serious injury because the pistol was loaded only with birdshot; but the attempt on the monarch's life triggered a new wave of persecutions on a scale far surpassing anything the country had yet witnessed. Thousands of men, women and children were put to death in circumstances of horrible cruelty. Advised that the property of the "apostates" was forfeit, many local authorities joined in hunting down followers of the Báb. In Tehran the different trade guilds—bakers, butchers, carpenters and others—seized groups of Bábís and vied with each other to devise the cruellest forms of tortures.

The Bábí Movement | What Bahá’ís Believe

This poorly orchestrated attempt on the life of the Shah appears to have been the initiative of two Babis acting independantly of any leadership.

The result of the renewed persecution was Baha'u'llah's imprisonment in Tihran. He would not have been released if it were discovered that in anyway He was responsible.

The Gems of Divine mystery appears to have been written between 1858 and 1862:

http://bahai-library.com/images/t/tablets_bahaullah_baghdad_timeline.gif

Any translated material is best obtained from the official Bahai.org library

Gems of Divine Mysteries | Bahá’í Reference Library

The text in question reads:

Encompassed as I am at this time by the dogs of the earth and the beasts of every land, concealed as I remain in the hidden habitation of Mine inner Being, forbidden as I may be from divulging that which God hath bestowed upon Me of the wonders of His knowledge, the gems of His wisdom, and the tokens of His power, yet am I loath to frustrate the hopes of one who hath approached the sanctuary of grandeur, sought to enter within the precincts of eternity, and aspired to soar in the immensity of this creation at the dawning of the divine decree. I shall therefore relate unto thee certain truths from among those which God hath vouchsafed unto Me, this only to the extent that souls can bear and minds endure, lest the malicious raise a clamour or the dissemblers hoist their banners. I implore God to graciously aid Me in this, for unto such as beseech Him, He is the All-Bounteous, and of those who show mercy, He is the Most Merciful.

The Baha'i writings often refer to the lower nature of man as like an animal. For example:

As long as man is a captive of habit, pursuing the dictates of self and desire, he is vanquished and defeated. This passionate personal ego takes the reins from his hands, crowds out the qualities of the divine ego and changes him into an animal, a creature unable to judge good from evil, or to distinguish light from darkness. He becomes blind to divine attributes, for this acquired individuality, the result of an evil routine of thought becomes the dominant note of his life. May all of you be freed from these dangers and delivered from the world of desires that you may enter into the realm of light and become divine, radiant, merciful, Godlike.
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Divine Philosophy, p. 133-134)

Lower Nature

So an interpretation that makes sense to me is Baha'u'llah when referring to being encompassed by the dogs of the earth and beasts of the field is simply saying that darkness fills the surrounding regions and lands. Spirituality and virtue have diminished and man's lower nature as symbolised by the animal has gained ascendency over the people.

 

[CG Didymus]

If bringing a new Religious Law or Revelation is wrong, then previous Messengers were wrong too, weren't they?

This relates to a post I made to Adrian. I think it's important to this thread also. Tribal religions sometimes had horrible practices like animal or even human sacrifices to appease their gods. The religious leaders probably had to convince the people that this was the infallible truth from their God. Obviously, it wasn't. So questioning religious claims is extremely important. Too often, and Baha'is say this also, religions take myths and legends as literal when they shouldn't be. What should we be questioning about the Baha'i Faith? Or, is it different and infallibly perfect?

 

[Vinayaka]

This relates to a post I made to Adrian. I think it's important to this thread also. Tribal religions sometimes had horrible practices like animal or even human sacrifices to appease their gods. The religious leaders probably had to convince the people that this was the infallible truth from their God. Obviously, it wasn't. So questioning religious claims is extremely important. Too often, and Baha'is say this also, religions take myths and legends as literal when they shouldn't be. What should we be questioning about the Baha'i Faith? Or, is it different and infallibly perfect?

I think it necessary to question any and all faiths, including your own. Most folks do. Some don't.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This relates to a post I made to Adrian. I think it's important to this thread also. Tribal religions sometimes had horrible practices like animal or even human sacrifices to appease their gods. The religious leaders probably had to convince the people that this was the infallible truth from their God. Obviously, it wasn't.

I don't believe human sacrifice was part of any truly divine revelation. Animal sacrifice maybe, but that is even not very clear to me.

So questioning religious claims is extremely important.

Yes, it is.

Too often, and Baha'is say this also, religions take myths and legends as literal when they shouldn't be.

Ok.

What should we be questioning about the Baha'i Faith? Or, is it different and infallibly perfect?

You should be asking the Manifestation of God to show you the evidence of divinity, and truth of His claim. You should ask for the proof of His claim.
Bahaullah has expounded on this subject in details in the Book of Iqan (certitude).

 

[Trailblazer]

What should we be questioning about the Baha'i Faith?

Whether Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God or not... That is all that we need to know. From that premise flow the conclusions.

 

[Vinayaka]

Whether Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God or not... That is all that we need to know. From that premise flow the conclusions.

Only if you believe that. About 7 billion people don't. Others substitute various names for Baha'u'llah. Still others have no names like that.