Infallibility

[Vinayaka]

You should be asking the Manifestation of God to show you the evidence of divinity, and truth of His claim. You should ask for the proof of His claim.

Why ask him? "You should ... " is a phrase we could all do without. Who gave you the right to say "You should ..." to another person on this planet? (Yes, I know, Baha'u'llah gave you that right, because you declared.) Not conducive to interfaith harmony at all. Imagine going to an interfaith meeting, and a guy stands up, and says ... "Hey everyone, you should all listen to me." Then the next guy stands up and says, "No, everyone, you guys should all listen to ME!" And on it goes around the entire room. Then everyone goes home.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why ask him? "You should ... " is a phrase we could all do without. Who gave you the right to say "You should ..." to another person on this planet? (Yes, I know, Baha'u'llah gave you that right, because you declared.) Not conducive to interfaith harmony at all. Imagine going to an interfaith meeting, and a guy stands up, and says ... "Hey everyone, you should all listen to me." Then the next guy stands up and says, "No, everyone, you guys should all listen to ME!" And on it goes around the entire room. Then everyone goes home.

I don't think you should believe in anything or anyone without seeing evidence and proofs. It is too dangerous to trust and follow a false teacher.

 

[Trailblazer]

Only if you believe that. About 7 billion people don't. Others substitute various names for Baha'u'llah. Still others have no names like that.

CG Didymus asked what we should be questioning about the Baha'i Faith.

I said we should be questioning whether Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God or not... That is all that we need to know. Actually, that is not all we need to know, but it is the first thing we need to know, because if Baha'u'llah was not a Manifestation of God there is no point having any further discussion about the Baha'i Faith.

It has nothing to do with whether I believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God or whether anyone believes that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God because what people believe does not create Reality. Baha’u’llah was either (a) a Manifestation of God or (b) a false prophet. It has to be either (a) or (b), logically speaking.

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't think you should believe in anything or anyone without seeing evidence and proofs. It is too dangerous to trust and follow a false teacher.

Of course. But as you know, 'proof' varies from person to person. For me there is no proof of any belief. Belief stands on it's own without proof. But for those who have the psychological need for it, they invent it in their imagination, and repeat the mantra, "I have proof' until it's like a placebo, and works, even though they really don't have any proof at all.

 

[Vinayaka]

CG Didymus asked what we should be questioning about the Baha'i Faith.

I said we should be questioning whether Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God or not... That is all that we need to know. Actually, that is not all we need to know, but it is the first thing we need to know, because if Baha'u'llah was not a Manifestation of God there is no point having any further discussion about the Baha'i Faith.

It has nothing to do with whether I believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God or whether anyone believes that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God because what people believe does not create Reality. Baha’u’llah was either (a) a Manifestation of God or (b) a false prophet. It has to be either (a) or (b), logically speaking.

There is a third option, and that is that there are no prophets at all, neither true ones, or false ones. 'Prophet' could be a make believe situation, much like science fiction. But that goes outside the box of prophet based religions, which would be hard for those folks programmed that those are the only valid religions or paradigms.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is a third option, and that is that there are no prophets at all, neither true ones, or false ones. 'Prophet' could be a make believe situation, much like science fiction. But that goes outside the box of prophet based religions, which would be hard for those folks programmed that those are the only valid religions or paradigms.

That would be covered under (b) a false prophet because if there are no real prophets Baha'u'llah (and all the others) would be false prophets, since they claimed to BE someone they were not.

 

[CG Didymus]

That would be covered under (b) a false prophet because if there are no real prophets Baha'u'llah (and all the others) would be false prophets, since they claimed to BE someone they were not.

Is there anyone that you and the Baha'is consider to be a false prophet? 'Cause a lot of people sure seem to have claimed to be a prophet.

 

[Vinayaka]

That would be covered under (b) a false prophet because if there are no real prophets Baha'u'llah (and all the others) would be false prophets, since they claimed to BE someone they were not.

As I said, it's outside your box, so you're unable to conceive of it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Is there anyone that you and the Baha'is consider to be a false prophet? 'Cause a lot of people sure seem to have claimed to be a prophet.

Anyone who was not a True Prophet was a false prophet.
The only true Prophets we know about are the ones who have been mentioned in the Baha'i Writings, but that does not mean there are not others we do not know about.

From: Twelve table talks given by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in ‘Akká

​

Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?

Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.

Additional Tablets, Extracts and Talks | Bahá’í Reference Library

 

[Trailblazer]

As I said, it's outside your box, so you're unable to conceive of it.

I have no box.

 

[Vinayaka]

I have no box.

Everyone has a subconscious mind. "You can take the boy from the country, but you can't take the country from the boy." The traits of Bahai'ism are loud and clear in all your words. Of course you have a box. We all do. Perhaps you didn't understand the metaphor, or had never heard of it before.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course you have a box. We all do. Perhaps you didn't understand the metaphor, or had never heard of it before.

That would mean you also have a box. You have a Hindu box.
The 100-dollar question is why the Bahai box bothers you so much.
The Hindu box does not bother me at all.

 

[Vinayaka]

That would mean you also have a box. You have a Hindu box.
The 100-dollar question is why the Bahai box bothers you so much.
The Hindu box does not bother me at all.

Yes I said I did. We all do, I'm part of 'we all'. As for Baha'i, somebody has to counter deception.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes I said I did. We all do, I'm part of 'we all'. As for Baha'i, somebody has to counter deception.

What deception?

 

[Trailblazer]

The traits of Bahai'ism are loud and clear in all your words.

What are those traits?

 

[CG Didymus]

There is a third option, and that is that there are no prophets at all, neither true ones, or false ones. 'Prophet' could be a make believe situation, much like science fiction. But that goes outside the box of prophet based religions, which would be hard for those folks programmed that those are the only valid religions or paradigms.

If I had a nickel for every so-called "prophet" that was just a charismatic person that borrowed ideas from Jesus or Buddha somebody and put a new twist on them. The person that took the title "Baha'u'llah" was more than that, though. But I just can't believe how much of a Shia Islamic influence the religion has. Even the bad stuff from the Christian Book of Revelation they say was fulfilled hundreds of years ago by evil Islamic leaders. Not the Pope. Not the guy from the Inquisition, but Moslems. Like we went through with them already, where's the Buddhist and Hindu influence in the Baha'i teachings? Oh, and I just counted up my nickels. I've got a buck twenty five and counting.

 

[CG Didymus]

That would mean you also have a box. You have a Hindu box.
The 100-dollar question is why the Bahai box bothers you so much.
The Hindu box does not bother me at all.

Hmmm, the caste system, reincarnation, multiple gods and goddesses, Krishna and the gopi's,.. for a Baha'i, these are all controversial subjects. None of them bothers you? And it's not fair if Vinayaka answers the question... He knows the answer. So if I guess it right do I get the $100?

 

[Trailblazer]

Hmmm, the caste system, reincarnation, multiple gods and goddesses, Krishna and the gopi's,.. for a Baha'i, these are all controversial subjects. None of them bothers you? And it's not fair if Vinayaka answers the question... He knows the answer. So if I guess it right do I get the $100?

I hope you read the post I just posted carefully, because it is very important.

I cannot speak for other Baha'is, I can only speak for myself. But as a Bahai who knows what Baha'u'llah wrote I can say that the caste system is against the Baha'i principles and that multiple gods and goddesses is against the Baha'i beliefs. That there is only one God is basic to Baha'i theology. It is a Baha'i belief that Krishna was a Manifestation of God who established Hinduism as a major religion.

I do not know anything about the gopis. I will not apologize just because I do not know much about religions other than Baha'i. I was never interested in religion and I only learned what I now know about Baha'i within the last six years. I only knew the basics before I became a Bahai, so I had a lot to learn. I do not have the time to learn about all the other religions I do not even believe in. I also have other responsibilities in life.

Back to your question; no, it does not bother me if people believe in the caste system, reincarnation, multiple gods and goddesses, Krishna and the gopi's. Because I have boundaries between myself and other people their beliefs do not bother me at all. They have a right to their beliefs and I have a right to mine. I have a right to believe that their beliefs are untrue and mine are true, because they cannot both be true, since they are contradictory.

God is the final arbiter of who is right and who is wrong. I think some people will know after we die, but I do not think everyone will know. Those who thought they knew the truth and were wrong might still cling to their false beliefs, be they atheists or beleivers.

 

[siti]

So an interpretation that makes sense to me is Baha'u'llah when referring to being encompassed by the dogs of the earth and beasts of the field is simply saying that darkness fills the surrounding regions and lands. Spirituality and virtue have diminished and man's lower nature as symbolised by the animal has gained ascendency over the people.

Well OK - but the context (which we have been reminded several times by Bahai's in this thread is very important) has Baha'u'llah bemoaning the fact that he is being prevented by "the dogs of the earth" and "beasts of every land" from sharing the "gems of [God's] wisdom" openly. So the question is who can be identified as the ones preventing him fro m sharing openly? Perhaps it was a condition of his release from prison that he should refrain from preaching the Babi religion? Perhaps he was simply under too much government scrutiny and fearful of making any declarations that might further implicate himself as a leader of what the government of Persia (and possibly the Ottoman government) viewed as a murderous sect.

In any case, whatever the reason and whatever the interpretation, my reason for posting the quote in the context of this thread was because one of your fellow Baha'is had falsely claimed that Baha'u'llah had never made such derogatory characterizations of fellow humans. Clearly this was wrong and, in fact, according to your comments, the opposite is true:

The Baha'i writings often refer to the lower nature of man as like an animal...

And what you mean by "lower nature" is a way of looking at the world that is not Baha'i. And that was the point that another poster was making - that by calling people who happen not to agree with your faith animals, you're not going to win a huge number of friends.

 

[siti]

Also, as I understand it, the Babi writings never made Subh-i-Azhal on an equal footing with “Him whom God will make manifest” so it was a purely nominal appointment made to the time of the revealing of Baha’u’llah’s great station.

So much for infallibility then!