Infallibility

[Trailblazer]

Abdul Baha's infallibility is as doubtful as of Bahaullah's himself. They were both human beings born of women.

"They were both human beings born of women."
What does that have to do with infallibility?
Baha'u'llah was human but also divine.

 

[Milton Platt]

God does keep His word but he never promised to forgive everyone.

I wouldn't know.....there is no way to even demonstrate he exists, much less prove he is telling the truth about anything.

 

[Trailblazer]

I wouldn't know.....there is no way to even demonstrate he exists, much less prove he is telling the truth about anything.

There is not way to prove God exists but there is evidence that indicates that He exists.... If God exists He would not lie because He is fully self-sufficient so He has no motive for lying

 

[Milton Platt]

There is not way to prove God exists but there is evidence that indicates that He exists.... If God exists He would not lie because He is fully self-sufficient so He has no motive for lying

How do you know these things? You are telling me stuff about a being that you cannot even demonstrate exists. What evidence? How do you know everything he told you isn't a hoax and he is laughing his *** off at people for being taken in? How do you know the entire universe isn't a cosmic joke? What way do you have to certify his veracity on anything? You don't. You only have stuff written down by someone else.

 

[sojourner]

How do you know these things? You are telling me stuff about a being that you admit you cannot even demonstrate exists. How do you know everything he told you isn't a hoax and he is laughing his *** off at people for being taken in? What way do you have to certify his veracity on anything? You don't. You only have stuff written down by someone else.

Hence, what I said about metaphor and avatar in the other thread. God represents whatever is best, whatever is highest, whatever is purest — things we can never perfectly attain. Therefore, the God-concept is one of infallibility, because infallibility represents a “highest ideal” for human beings.

 

[Milton Platt]

Hence, what I said about metaphor and avatar in the other thread. God represents whatever is best, whatever is highest, whatever is purest — things we can never perfectly attain. Therefore, the God-concept is one of infallibility, because infallibility represents a “highest ideal” for human beings.

okay, so god is not a real thing for you, but merely a concept?

 

[Milton Platt]

"They were both human beings born of women."
What does that have to do with infallibility?
Baha'u'llah was human but also divine.

Evidence?

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you know these things? You are telling me stuff about a being that you admit you cannot even demonstrate exists. How do you know everything he told you isn't a hoax and he is laughing his *** off at people for being taken in? What way do you have to certify his veracity on anything? You don't. You only have stuff written down by someone else.

We have scriptures, that is what we have to go on. God sends Messengers who reveal scriptures. The more current the scriptures are the more information we have about God because more is revealed by God to the Messenger as time goes on. However, all the Abrahamic scriptures concur on the Attributes of God, so that is one way we know it is no hoax. The Bible, the Qur'an and the Writings of Baha'u'llah all describe God as x, y, and z. That is no accident.

If I heard a voice in my head saying "I am God and I am x, y, and z" I would think I was going crazy. Think about it. How would YOU know what you heard was from God? The Messengers of God know it is God speaking to them because they are not ordinary human beings. They have a divine nature so they are able to understand God and know it is God speaking to them. Then they relay that information to the rest of us humans in scriptures and some of us choose to believe they are telling the truth.

All this makes sense if you think about it without prejudice.

Also, you have to consider motive. Is that not the first thing they look at in a criminal case? What motive would an All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, God have for fooling humans? It makes no sense so I have to disregard it as a possibility.

 

[Trailblazer]

Evidence?

There is evidence.
Once someone has verified the evidence it becomes proof to them, but it will never be proof to everyone because everyone views the evidence differently since no two humans think alike.

 

[Milton Platt]

There is evidence.
Once someone has verified the evidence it becomes proof to them, but it will never be proof to everyone because everyone views the evidence differently since no two humans think alike.

Proof has to do with mathematics.
Yes, some people have a higher bar for evidence for extraordinary claims, which is as it should be.

 

[Milton Platt]

We have scriptures, that is what we have to go on. God sends Messengers who reveal scriptures. The more current the scriptures are the more information we have about God because more is revealed by God to the Messenger as time goes on. However, all the Abrahamic scriptures concur on the Attributes of God, so that is one way we know it is no hoax. The Bible, the Qur'an and the Writings of Baha'u'llah all describe God as x, y, and z. That is no accident.

If I heard a voice in my head saying "I am God and I am x, y, and z" I would think I was going crazy. Think about it. How would YOU know what you heard was from God? The Messengers of God know it is God speaking to them because they are not ordinary human beings. They have a divine nature so they are able to understand God and know it is God speaking to them. Then they relay that information to the rest of us humans in scriptures and some of us choose to believe they are telling the truth.

All this makes sense if you think about it without prejudice.

Also, you have to consider motive. Is that not the first thing they look at in a criminal case? What motive would an All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, God have for fooling humans? It makes no sense so I have to disregard it as a possibility.

Scriptures are proof that someone believed something thousands of years ago and wrote it down. Nothing more. You cannot demonstrate that "messengers" know a message is from god, or that they got a message at all. You only have their word. It comes down to faith over evidence in the end.

 

[Trailblazer]

Proof has to do with mathematics.
Yes, some people have a higher bar for evidence for extraordinary claims, which is as it should be.

What I meant by proof is that we have proven it to ourselves.
I have a high bar and it has been met.

 

[sojourner]

okay, so god is not a real thing for you, but merely a concept?

Well... “concept” is really all we have. No, God is not a “thing,” as in some object. For me God is life, God is existence, itself.

 

[Trailblazer]

Scriptures are proof that someone believed something thousands of years ago and wrote it down. Nothing more. You cannot demonstrate that "messengers" know a message is from god, or that they god t a message at all. You only have their word. It comes down to faith over evidence in the end.

The Revelation of Baha'u'llah happened in the 19th century, not thousands of years ago.
I cannot prove that God spoke to Baha'u'llah because a claim like that is not subject to proofs.
No, it does not come down to faith over evidence because we look at all the evidence that indicates that the claim of Baha'u'llah was true and only after that do we have faith. It is a reason-based faith since there is a reason to believe the claim, even though we cannot prove it like a scientific fact.

 

[Milton Platt]

The Revelation of Baha'u'llah happened in the 19th century, not thousands of years ago.
I cannot prove that God spoke to Baha'u'llah because a claim like that is not subject to proofs.
No, it does not come down to faith over evidence because we look at all the evidence that indicates that the claim of Baha'u'llah was true and only after that do we have faith. It is a reason-based faith since there is a reason to believe the claim, even though we cannot prove it like a scientific fact.

Exactly my point. The only reason you have to believe any of that stuff is because you want to believe it. It isn’t evidence based. It is faith based. The fact that you can prove a specific claim to be true does not demonstrate how the knowledge was arrived at.
I can tell you all kinds of true things.

 

[Trailblazer]

Exactly my point. The only reason you have to believe any of that stuff is because you want to believe it.

That's funny. I guess that's why I spent 42 years running away from the Baha'i Faith and God. Do you have some kind of illusion that being a Bahai and believing in God is easy? What do you think we get for that belief? A lifetime of sacrificing what we want for the Cause of God, if we take it seriously. I tried to dodge the bullet most of my life and only decided to take it seriously about six years ago. Since then, I have had nothing for myself. It is all for the Cause of God.

I am not complaining. I am just pointing out that belief is not about what I want. If I thought about what I want I would be living a completely different lifestyle. No, it is not about what I want, it is about what I know is the Truth from God. I cannot run away from God's Truth, not any longer. It is not the right thing to do, despite what I might want for myself.

It isn’t evidence based. It is faith based. The fact that you can prove a specific claim to be true does not demonstrate how the knowledge was arrived at.
I can tell you all kinds of true things.

Faith is based upon the evidence that indicates that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be. There is plenty of that evidence.

 

[Marcion]

Yes I said I did. We all do, I'm part of 'we all'. As for Baha'i, somebody has to counter deception.

You will never stop a fundamentalist type of religious believer, they out of a certain blindness don't see it as deception but as spreading "truth". Spiritual realisation goes beyond the world of cause and effect (and its understanding through rationality) but a fundamentalist will believe that the starting point need not have anything to do with rationality. So your rational arguments can easily be ignored or laughed away by them, it is a hopeless cause to try and convince them to change their mind, waste of precious time better spent on useful things.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, God is not obligated to forgive anyone. God has no obligations. God may or not forgive them, but the bolded part below is what will happen to them:

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 169-171​

The Christians I know believe that God promises to forgive them of their sins if they believe in Jesus. If they want to, they can provide the verses that would support their belief. In James, he seems to be saying that "true" faith does save you, but true faith means doing the things Jesus commanded. A small problem arises with that. Which Christian perfectly follows those commandments?

What those Christians definitely do not believe is that a person has to "work" for or in some way earn their salvation. They believe salvation is a free gift given to those that believe in Jesus. And those that believe will be with Jesus in Paradise, but the non-believers will be cast into hell to be tormented.

So how is that different from your quote that says? A "true" follower of God experiences joy and gladness, but the people that live in "error" will be seized by fear and trembling? Are you sure there is no concept of a hell-type of existence after death for evil people in the Baha'i Faith? And, are there degrees of gladness versus trembling depending on how good or bad a person is? Do they get one day of gladness and then one day of fear and trembling if they were only half bad?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Are you sure there is no concept of a hell-type of existence after death for evil people in the Baha'i Faith? And, are there degrees of gladness versus trembling depending on how good or bad a person is? Do they get one day of gladness and then one day of fear and trembling if they were only half bad?

Justice in this world works by reward and punishment.

Heaven and hell are states of existence.

Now if all Humanity can live all virtues, we have heaven, Gods Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven.

We get to choose. Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

You will never stop a fundamentalist type of religious believer, they out of a certain blindness don't see it as deception but as spreading "truth". Spiritual realisation goes beyond the world of cause and effect (and its understanding through rationality) but a fundamentalist will believe that the starting point need not have anything to do with rationality. So your rational arguments can easily be ignored or laughed away by them, it is a hopeless cause to try and convince them to change their mind, waste of precious time better spent on useful things.

I guess it never occurred to you that the Baha'i Faith could actually be the Truth from God.
No, it never occurs to people who think they already know they are right. They have no interest in the Truth. All they want is what they want because it is comfy cozy and it suits their chosen lifestyle like a pair of designer shoes.

All they can do is toss around labels like fundamentalist or blindness because they have nothing of substance to say. The people that are blind are those who are living in the past, attached to their older religions that have been abrogated. Some of them are not even religions of God at all, they are some kind of spiritual practice that has nothing to do with God at all.

Obviously, you and your ilk cannot refute the Baha'i Faith so all you can do is hurl insults at its followers.
I know all about this behavior because I have been observing it on many different forums for six years.
Funny thing, nobody can refute the Bahai Faith, so all they can do is hurl insults at Baha'is. Their motives are so obvious.

“Those who would have men believe that religion is their own private property once more bring their efforts to bear against the Sun of Truth: they resist the Command of God; they invent calumnies, not having arguments against it, neither proofs. They attack with masked faces, not daring to come forth into the light of day.

Our methods are different, we do not attack, neither calumniate; we do not wish to dispute with them; we bring forth proofs and arguments; we invite them to confute our statements. They cannot answer us, but instead, they write all they can think of against the Divine Messenger, Bahá’u’lláh.” Paris Talks, p. 103​

Fundamentalist, what does that mean? If it means we follow the teachings and Laws of Baha'u'llah as best we can I see nothing wrong with that. It sure beats following self like most people do. But obviously it does not work for most people because most people are unwilling to give up what they want.

Nobody is going to stop the Baha'i Faith from moving forward because it is the Truth from God for this age and nobody can stop the Will of God from moving forward. The older religions have been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah and there is nothing the followers of those older religions can do about it.

It is obvious why so many people attack the Baha'i Faith but they won't succeed in bringing it down. These attacks only make the Faith grow. It has been that way throughout the history of the Faith.

“And I say unto you that no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God; it can only result in causing it to be more universally recognized. If a cause were of no significance, who would take the trouble to work against it!

But always the greater the cause the more do enemies arise in larger and larger numbers to attempt its overthrow! The brighter the light the darker the shadow! Our part it is to act in accordance with the teaching of Bahá’u’lláh in humility and firm steadfastness.” Paris Talks, p. 106​