Infallibility

[Marcion]

Nobody is going to stop the Baha'i Faith from moving forward because it is the Truth from God for this age and nobody can stop the Will of God from moving forward. The older religions have been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah and there is nothing the followers of those older religions can do about it.

These smilies are fabulous!

 

[Vinayaka]

You will never stop a fundamentalist type of religious believer, they out of a certain blindness don't see it as deception but as spreading "truth". Spiritual realisation goes beyond the world of cause and effect (and its understanding through rationality) but a fundamentalist will believe that the starting point need not have anything to do with rationality. So your rational arguments can easily be ignored or laughed away by them, it is a hopeless cause to try and convince them to change their mind, waste of precious time better spent on useful things.

You're absolutely correct. Once every few months I fall victim to my own stupidity (anava) and respond when I should know better. It serves no useful purpose. Thanks for the reminder. It's been about 3 days since I've engaged with the brand of fundamentalism you're alluding to.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Christians I know believe that God promises to forgive them of their sins if they believe in Jesus. If they want to, they can provide the verses that would support their belief. In James, he seems to be saying that "true" faith does save you, but true faith means doing the things Jesus commanded. A small problem arises with that. Which Christian perfectly follows those commandments?

What those Christians definitely do not believe is that a person has to "work" for or in some way earn their salvation. They believe salvation is a free gift given to those that believe in Jesus. And those that believe will be with Jesus in Paradise, but the non-believers will be cast into hell to be tormented.

Who cares what Christians believe? They believe in an illusion, lies taught by the Church. They believe in the Christianity of Paul, not the Christianity of Jesus.

They are in for a big surprise because the door to heaven is going to be shut in their faces, unless they lived the life Jesus taught. There are no free gifts, no guarantees of salvation.

So how is that different from your quote that says? A "true" follower of God experiences joy and gladness, but the people that live in "error" will be seized by fear and trembling? Are you sure there is no concept of a hell-type of existence after death for evil people in the Baha'i Faith? And, are there degrees of gladness versus trembling depending on how good or bad a person is? Do they get one day of gladness and then one day of fear and trembling if they were only half bad?

If course there are degrees of heaven and hell, which are simply states of the soul, nearness and distance from God. That is explained in other passages.

Those who live in error are not necessarily nonbelievers, they probably are not nonbelievers. They are people who committed evil deeds. I hope they straight to hell and stay there for eternity. I guess it's a good thing I am not God because I would never forgive them. These are people who murder people for money or sex or sometimes for no reason at all except they they felt like it. Why should God forgive these people? They permanently destroy the lives of families who lost loved ones. Every time I watch ID TV I hope there is a hell. Baha'is like to downplay hell but there is a hell although it is not the fiery pit Christians believe in. Ummmmm... if there was no hell, what is the passage below all about? What that passage means is that they would want to perish rather than continue to exist, if they knew where they were going.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345​

 

[Marcion]

I guess

Keep on guessing!

 

[Trailblazer]

Keep on guessing!

It does not matter why they do not try to refute it, all that matters is if they can refute it or not.
If it is as false as some people say it is it should easy to refute.

 

[paarsurrey]

"They were both human beings born of women."
What does that have to do with infallibility?
Baha'u'llah was human but also divine.

Humans make mistakes, so did Mirza Hussein Ali Nouri make mistakes in understanding verses of Quran correctly from the verses in the context. So, he was just a human being never a divine.

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

Humans make mistakes, so did Mirza Hussein Ali Nouri make mistakes in understanding verses of Quran correctly from the verses in the context. So, he was just a human being never a divine.

Or it could be that you are the one who does not understand the verses of Qur'an correctly, and you just think you do.

 

[oldbadger]

So when did this idea that a scripture or a prophet or a messenger or a pope is absolutely perfect in every way come into practice? Has it been there since early times, or is it more recent? What purpose does it serve?

What or who do you consider infallible, if anything?

Total infallibility is as impossible as Total security.

Religions that seek control in any kind of World Order that claim infallibility for their prophets, their leaders and their assemblies, explaining that even decisions which seem crazy to the people are in fact sensible, these can be viewed as eccentric novelties as long as they can never gain any foothold on any control of folks outside that religion.

My suggestion is to get clear and keep clear of any such claims.

 

[Marcion]

Still, that a movement cannot be infallible is clear to most of us.
But ask an orthodox Christian if Jesus was infallible.
Ask a devotee of Krishna if Lord Krishna was infallible.
Ask an orthodox muslim if their prophet Muhammed was infallible.
Ask a Bahai if their prophet was infallible.

Do you think they will ever think or admit that their preceptors made any "mistakes" in their lives?

If you see your Preceptor as having been one with God, how are you ever going to think that they were fallible beings who made wrong decisions in their lives?

How are you going to criticize or doubt any word they spoke or instruction they gave?

 

[paarsurrey]

Still, that a movement cannot be infallible is clear to most of us.
But ask an orthodox Christian if Jesus was infallible.
Ask a devotee of Krishna if Lord Krishna was infallible.
Ask an orthodox muslim if their prophet Muhammed was infallible.
Ask a Bahai if their prophet was infallible.

Do you think they will ever think or admit that their preceptors made any "mistakes" in their lives?

If you see your Preceptor as having been one with God, how are you ever going to think that they were fallible beings who made wrong decisions in their lives?

How are you going to criticize or doubt any word they spoke or instruction they gave?

"Ask an orthodox muslim if their prophet Muhammed was infallible." Unquote.

We Muslims believe that Muhammad was not G-d, he was a human being. He could sometimes make a mistake of understanding.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Or it could be that you are the one who does not understand the verses of Qur'an correctly, and you just think you do.

In many a post I have asked my Bahais friends to quote a verse with the verses in the context and then prove their point of view but they have not done so. Please do it now and we could see it. It is just a friendly investigation for truth . Right, please?

Regards

 

[Riders]

So my question on this would be did Jews believe the bible to e infallible before Jesus and do they think the old testament is infallible?

 

[paarsurrey]

So my question on this would be did Jews believe the bible to e infallible before Jesus and do they think the old testament is infallible?

It is a good question.
Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

Still, that a movement cannot be infallible is clear to most of us.
But ask an orthodox Christian if Jesus was infallible.
Ask a devotee of Krishna if Lord Krishna was infallible.
Ask an orthodox muslim if their prophet Muhammed was infallible.
Ask a Bahai if their prophet was infallible.

Do you think they will ever think or admit that their preceptors made any "mistakes" in their lives?

If you see your Preceptor as having been one with God, how are you ever going to think that they were fallible beings who made wrong decisions in their lives?

How are you going to criticize or doubt any word they spoke or instruction they gave?

I do not think we have to take this infallibility stuff to the hilt. There is no human who has never made a mistake and since Baha’u’llah and Jesus had a human station they must have made mistakes. I think that infallibility applies to their divine station, that they never made mistakes when they spoke for God.

So here is the crux of the issue.... IF, in speaking for God, the Manifestations of God (Jesus, Muhammad, and Baha’u’llah, etc.) made mistakes, how can we trust anything they said in their scriptures? Anything could be right or wrong.

If we can criticize and doubt what they spoke or wrote then they would be on par with ordinary humans, just like any ordinary man, so they would immediately be demoted from Manifestation of God to ordinary man, and we do not need them anymore. There are plenty of wise men in the world.

IF while speaking for God, the Manifestations of God were infallible, then if we criticize or doubt anything they said or wrote we are being illogical, since no human is infallible. I think what bothers some people is that they cannot accept that someone knows more than they know and can tell them what they should be doing. It does not bother me at all because it is illogical to criticize or doubt someone who infallible. I have no problem with not knowing everything about anything. Humility is a good thing. I do not have to understand why certain Laws are as they are. I just accept them as they are, knowing that Baha’u’llah knows more than I do and He understands things I cannot understand since He is more than a man.

It seems odd to me how Jews and Muslims can base their faith in God upon a man who they believe is a fallible Prophet. It also makes no sense that God would become a man as Christians believe. The concept of a Manifestation of God that is a God-man is the only thing that makes sense to me. I am not about to obey and take seriously the teachings and Laws of a Prophet who might have gotten it wrong when he spoke for God.

 

[Trailblazer]

In many a post I have asked my Bahais friends to quote a verse with the verses in the context and then prove their point of view but they have not done so. Please do it now and we could see it. It is just a friendly investigation for truth . Right, please?

Regards

What do you want me to quote and prove?

 

[Marcion]

"Ask an orthodox muslim if their prophet Muhammed was infallible." Unquote.

We Muslims believe that Muhammad was not G-d, he was a human being. He could sometimes make a mistake of understanding.

So, if your prophet was not infallible in the words he spoke, how do you end up with a fully trustworthy Quran?

 

[ObjectOfMercy]

Only God is infallible and that includes Christ because Christ is God the Son. God's Word the Bible is infallible for it is His word and not man's word. Let God be true and every man a liar. This is why believers in Christ trust the Bible and only the Bible in all matters regarding their faith. God speaks only truth. We can rely on the Bible. However the truth must be revealed by God. We cannot understand the Bible, nor God's message from it, except by revelation by God to our individual minds. This He does by election, so that salvation is of the LORD, and not of man. Praise God!

 

[Marcion]

God's Word the Bible is infallible for it is His word and not man's word.

Can you please give proof of how this miracle happened since Jesus did not write the Christian Bible?
Who told you to believe in this miracle and why did you accept it?

 

[ObjectOfMercy]

Can you please give proof of how this miracle happened since Jesus did not write the Christian Bible?
Who told you to believe in this miracle and why did you accept it?

God made me spiritually alive from the dead through the hearing of His glorious gospel of Divine grace in Christ Jesus unto all the chosen vessels of God. Indeed it was a miracle, because by nature men do not understand, nor can they perceive this knowledge of the Holy. Only by the Lord Jesus opening my eyes (like as He did to the blind in the Bible) were my eyes made to see and know Him and see my salvation in Him, outside of myself. I thank God for this miracle of Divine grace which saved me. God Himself taught me, as it also says in the Bible.
Christ Himself says this in John 6:45:
"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

 

[Marcion]

God made me spiritually alive from the dead through the hearing of His glorious gospel of Divine grace in Christ Jesus unto all the chosen vessels of God. Indeed it was a miracle, because by nature men do not understand, nor can they perceive this knowledge of the Holy. Only by the Lord Jesus opening my eyes (like as He did to the blind in the Bible) were my eyes made to see and know Him and see my salvation in Him, outside of myself. I thank God for this miracle of Divine grace which saved me. God Himself taught me, as it also says in the Bible.
Christ Himself says this in John 6:45:
"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

Your proof utterly fails, you seem to make up your own dogma and have decided to accept that dogma as "truth".
What happens to people who persist in discussing while using dogma's?