Infallibility

[Riders]

Only God is infallible and that includes Christ because Christ is God the Son. God's Word the Bible is infallible for it is His word and not man's word. Let God be true and every man a liar. This is why believers in Christ trust the Bible and only the Bible in all matters regarding their faith. God speaks only truth. We can rely on the Bible. However the truth must be revealed by God. We cannot understand the Bible, nor God's message from it, except by revelation by God to our individual minds. This He does by election, so that salvation is of the LORD, and not of man. Praise God!

WHat bible? The

Only God is infallible and that includes Christ because Christ is God the Son. God's Word the Bible is infallible for it is His word and not man's word. Let God be true and every man a liar. This is why believers in Christ trust the Bible and only the Bible in all matters regarding their faith. God speaks only truth. We can rely on the Bible. However the truth must be revealed by God. We cannot understand the Bible, nor God's message from it, except by revelation by God to our individual minds. This He does by election, so that salvation is of the LORD, and not of man. Praise God!

What Bible? The Jewish Cabbalah, Torah? Old testament new testament KIng James NIV Johovas winess bible, lost scriptures, Catholic bible, Oxford Bible,Book Of Mormon,Apocryoha?

 

[paarsurrey]

Infallibility

One may like to read my post #85 in another thread which is very much relevant here.

Regards

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not think we have to take this infallibility stuff to the hilt. There is no human who has never made a mistake and since Baha’u’llah and Jesus had a human station they must have made mistakes. I think that infallibility applies to their divine station, that they never made mistakes when they spoke for God.

So here is the crux of the issue.... IF, in speaking for God, the Manifestations of God (Jesus, Muhammad, and Baha’u’llah, etc.) made mistakes, how can we trust anything they said in their scriptures? Anything could be right or wrong.

If we can criticize and doubt what they spoke or wrote then they would be on par with ordinary humans, just like any ordinary man, so they would immediately be demoted from Manifestation of God to ordinary man, and we do not need them anymore. There are plenty of wise men in the world.

IF while speaking for God, the Manifestations of God were infallible, then if we criticize or doubt anything they said or wrote we are being illogical, since no human is infallible. I think what bothers some people is that they cannot accept that someone knows more than they know and can tell them what they should be doing. It does not bother me at all because it is illogical to criticize or doubt someone who infallible. I have no problem with not knowing everything about anything. Humility is a good thing. I do not have to understand why certain Laws are as they are. I just accept them as they are, knowing that Baha’u’llah knows more than I do and He understands things I cannot understand since He is more than a man.

It seems odd to me how Jews and Muslims can base their faith in God upon a man who they believe is a fallible Prophet. It also makes no sense that God would become a man as Christians believe. The concept of a Manifestation of God that is a God-man is the only thing that makes sense to me. I am not about to obey and take seriously the teachings and Laws of a Prophet who might have gotten it wrong when he spoke for God.

I've questioned Baha'is before about Moses, Abraham, Noah and Adam. As far as I know, Baha'is have said that all of them are manifestations. But I don't think Jews believe any of the ones from Judaism were anything more than fallible men. They made mistakes. I think it's the same with their prophets. They spoke God's Word, but they also led their lives as ordinary people too.

Abraham and Noah are just small stories in the Bible. They obeyed God. It doesn't have them doing the things that a manifestation is supposed to do. Besides, they might be mythical anyway. Then there is Adam. He disobeyed God, and the Baha'i Faith names a "cycle" after him? Again, he's probably mythical. And, who other than some Jews, Christians and Moslems, believe he was the first man? Other religions and cultures have their own creation myths and the "first" man stories.

I understand why a religion makes its prophet/founder infallible and also their Scriptures. They need it to be the absolute truth. But, the rest of us can question it and criticize it and say how illogical it all sounds. Baha'is, though, have to treat the writings and the religions with respect. Some Baha'is go to far trying to be everything to every religion. That's not your style. But, I think it is a more honest representation of the underlying belief about the other religions taught in the Baha'i Faith... the other religions had their day but have lost the truth and are irrelevant.

But how do you convince people that believe their religion is the infallible word of God? Then, how do you convince people that your religion is the new infallible word of God, when they are perfectly happy with the religion they have? A religion that is working for them? A religion that has adapted and changed to modern society? Baha'is then become the hard-nosed, hard-headed fundamentalist kind of religion that is telling them that their religion is wrong and doesn't work. When it is working. What do you do?

 

[Trailblazer]

I've questioned Baha'is before about Moses, Abraham, Noah and Adam. As far as I know, Baha'is have said that all of them are manifestations. But I don't think Jews believe any of the ones from Judaism were anything more than fallible men. They made mistakes. I think it's the same with their prophets. They spoke God's Word, but they also led their lives as ordinary people too.

Abraham and Noah are just small stories in the Bible. They obeyed God. It doesn't have them doing the things that a manifestation is supposed to do. Besides, they might be mythical anyway. Then there is Adam. He disobeyed God, and the Baha'i Faith names a "cycle" after him? Again, he's probably mythical. And, who other than some Jews, Christians and Moslems, believe he was the first man? Other religions and cultures have their own creation myths and the "first" man stories.

Baha'u'llah explains the significance of Abraham and Noah and some other Bible Prophets in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. Not all Prophets are universal Manifestations like Jesus, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah.

Abdu'l-Baha explained the difference between the three kinds of Prophets:

Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?
Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.
Additional Tablets, Extracts and Talks | Bahá’í Reference Library​

I understand why a religion makes its prophet/founder infallible and also their Scriptures. They need it to be the absolute truth. But, the rest of us can question it and criticize it and say how illogical it all sounds. Baha'is, though, have to treat the writings and the religions with respect. Some Baha'is go to far trying to be everything to every religion. That's not your style. But, I think it is a more honest representation of the underlying belief about the other religions taught in the Baha'i Faith... the other religions had their day but have lost the truth and are irrelevant.

All religions can and should be treated with respect, but that does not mean they are still applicable for this age in history.

But how do you convince people that believe their religion is the infallible word of God? Then, how do you convince people that your religion is the new infallible word of God, when they are perfectly happy with the religion they have? A religion that is working for them? A religion that has adapted and changed to modern society? Baha'is then become the hard-nosed, hard-headed fundamentalist kind of religion that is telling them that their religion is wrong and doesn't work. When it is working. What do you do?

It is not the job of the Baha'is to convince anyone of anything. Our only job is to impart accurate information. If people are happy with the religion they have they are not going to become Baha'is. That is their choice since we all have free will.

I do not consider the Baha'i Faith fundamentalist just because we believe that only one religion can be in force during any time period in history. That is simply the core theology of the Bahai Faith, called Progressive Revelation.

Is their religion working? That depends upon what you mean by working. If you mean it meets their personal needs then maybe the older religions are working, but they are not working to meet the needs of all of humanity. The problem is, most people only care about themselves, not about humanity. That is one reason why there are so few Baha'is.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'u'llah explains the significance of Abraham and Noah and some other Bible Prophets in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. Not all Prophets are universal Manifestations like Jesus, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah.

Abdu'l-Baha explained the difference between the three kinds of Prophets:

Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?
Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.
Additional Tablets, Extracts and Talks | Bahá’í Reference Library​

All religions can and should be treated with respect, but that does not mean they are still applicable for this age in history.

It is not the job of the Baha'is to convince anyone of anything. Our only job is to impart accurate information. If people are happy with the religion they have they are not going to become Baha'is. That is their choice since we all have free will.

I do not consider the Baha'i Faith fundamentalist just because we believe that only one religion can be in force during any time period in history. That is simply the core theology of the Bahai Faith, called Progressive Revelation.

Is their religion working? That depends upon what you mean by working. If you mean it meets their personal needs then maybe the older religions are working, but they are not working to meet the needs of all of humanity. The problem is, most people only care about themselves, not about humanity. That is one reason why there are so few Baha'is.

I've heard and seen Baha'is include Adam, Abraham and Noah listed as manifestations. Is this true?

 

[paarsurrey]

Baha'u'llah explains the significance of Abraham and Noah and some other Bible Prophets in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. Not all Prophets are universal Manifestations like Jesus, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah.

Abdu'l-Baha explained the difference between the three kinds of Prophets:

Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?
Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.
Additional Tablets, Extracts and Talks | Bahá’í Reference Library​

All religions can and should be treated with respect, but that does not mean they are still applicable for this age in history.

It is not the job of the Baha'is to convince anyone of anything. Our only job is to impart accurate information. If people are happy with the religion they have they are not going to become Baha'is. That is their choice since we all have free will.

I do not consider the Baha'i Faith fundamentalist just because we believe that only one religion can be in force during any time period in history. That is simply the core theology of the Bahai Faith, called Progressive Revelation.

Is their religion working? That depends upon what you mean by working. If you mean it meets their personal needs then maybe the older religions are working, but they are not working to meet the needs of all of humanity. The problem is, most people only care about themselves, not about humanity. That is one reason why there are so few Baha'is.

"The Kitáb-i-Íqán. Not all Prophets are universal Manifestations like Jesus, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah." Unquote.

Please give quote from Kitáb-i-Íqán where Jesus has been stated to be a universal manifestation by Bahaullah with a new Law.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

So, if your prophet was not infallible in the words he spoke, how do you end up with a fully trustworthy Quran?

Quran is not authored by Muhammad, whatever is in Quran it has been spoken by G-d , only that is infallible . Quran is infallible being Word of G-d.

Other than that what Muhammad spoke were the words of Muhammad he could make a mistake of understanding in them.
No prophet/messenger of G-d could sin, they are all innocent. Muhammad was a prophet/messenger of G-d.
To make a mistake and to sin are two different things.

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

I've heard and seen Baha'is include Adam, Abraham and Noah listed as manifestations. Is this true?

They were Prophets but I do not know if they could be considered universal Manifestations of God.

 

[paarsurrey]

"They were both human beings born of women."
What does that have to do with infallibility?
Baha'u'llah was human but also divine.

Did Bahaullah claim god-head for himself?
or
Did Bahaullah say that he is a servant of G-d, not a G-d, and there is no other G-d but G-d, and denied god-head for him (Bahaullah) in clear and unequivocal manner?
Please

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

Did Bahaullah claim god-head for himself?
or
Did Bahaullah say that he is a servant of G-d, not a G-d, and there is no other G-d but G-d, and denied god-head for him (Bahaullah) in clear and unequivocal manner?

Yes, Baha'u'llah did say that.

“Certain ones among you have said: “He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.” By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me. If this be My transgression, then I am truly the first of the transgressors. I and My kindred are at your mercy. Do ye as ye please, and be not of them that hesitate, that I might return to God My Lord, and reach the place where I can no longer behold your faces. This, indeed, is My dearest wish, My most ardent desire. Of My state God is, verily, sufficiently informed, observant.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 228​

 

[Marcion]

I wonder who it was that started the idea (dogma) that God spoke the words that ended up in the Quran.
How did God do this, was it a miraculous event?
Was there an angle who related those holy messages to the person(s?) who wrote down the words?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Quran is not authored by Muhammad, whatever is in Quran it has been spoken by G-d , only that is infallible . Quran is infallible being Word of G-d.

Other than that what Muhammad spoke were the words of Muhammad he could make a mistake of understanding in them.
No prophet/messenger of G-d could sin, they are all innocent. Muhammad was a prophet/messenger of G-d.
To make a mistake and to sin are two different things.

Regards

What mistakes did Muhammad make?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Please give quote from Kitáb-i-Íqán where Jesus has been stated to be a universal manifestation by Bahaullah with a new Law.

Here is one such quote. There might be others.

“To them that are endowed with understanding, it is clear and manifest that when the fire of the love of Jesus consumed the veils of Jewish limitations, and His authority was made apparent and partially enforced, He the Revealer of the unseen Beauty, addressing one day His disciples, referred unto His passing, and, kindling in their hearts the fire of bereavement, said unto them: “I go away and come again unto you.” And in another place He said: “I go and another will come Who will tell you all that I have not told you, and will fulfil all that I have said.” Both these sayings have but one meaning, were you to ponder upon the Manifestations of the Unity of God with divine insight.​

Every discerning observer will recognize that in the Dispensation of the Qur’án both the Book and the Cause of Jesus were confirmed. As to the matter of names, Muhammad, Himself, declared: “I am Jesus.” He recognized the truth of the signs, prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God. In this sense, neither the person of Jesus nor His writings hath differed from that of Muhammad and of His holy Book, inasmuch as both have championed the Cause of God, uttered His praise, and revealed His commandments. Thus it is that Jesus, Himself, declared: “I go away and come again unto you.” Consider the sun. Were it to say now, “I am the sun of yesterday,” it would speak the truth. And should it, bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner, if it be said that all the days are but one and the same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect to their particular names and designations, that they differ, that again is true. For though they are the same, yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a specific attribute, a particular character. Conceive accordingly the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou mayest comprehend the allusions made by the creator of all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to why that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times, called Himself by different names and titles.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 20-22​

 

[paarsurrey]

CG Didymus said: ↑
Since Abdu'l Baha and Shoghi Effendi were not the manifestation, wouldn't they be fallible humans?

Yes they were fallible, but Baha'u'llah conferred infallibility upon Abdu'l-Baha.

I believe Bahaullah himself was a fallible human being, so if he conferred any infallibility on Abdul Baha it is as invalid as Bahaullah's own, please.
Is it one's blind-faith, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Infallibility

On may like to read my post #141 in another thread which is very relevent here also.

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is it one's blind-faith, please?

paarsurrey - There is no compulsion in religion and Allah guides us all.

"And so those who were given knowledge may know that It (i.e. the Quran) is the truth from your Lord and [therefore] believe in it, and their hearts humbly submit to it. And indeed is Allah the Guide of those who have believed to a straight path." Quran, 22:54

Only Allah knows our hearts and our intent. We are all blind in some way, as only Allah is all knowing.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe Bahaullah himself was a fallible human being, so if he conferred any infallibility on Abdul Baha it is as invalid as Bahaullah's own, please.
Is it one's blind-faith, please?

I believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God whose Will was identical to the Will of God, so whatever Baha'u'llah revealed was just as infallible as if God had come and spoken it Himself.

"The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167​

That does not mean that Abdu'l Baha and Shoghi Effendi were infallible.
It is not blind faith because I did not believe it without looking into it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That does not mean that Abdu'l Baha and Shoghi Effendi were infallible.

The Covernant of Baha'u'llah has conferred infallibility to both Abdul'baha and on to Shoghi Effendi as to full Interpretation of the Message of Baha'u'llah and infallible guidance to the Universal House of Justice.

The will and testement of Abdul'baha explained this in detail.

Shoghi Effendi has clarified his conferred infallibility.

The Universal House of Justice has clarified their Infalability.

We can not seperate that Infallibility from what Baha'u'llah has given.

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

The Covernant of Baha'u'llah has conferred infallibility to both Abdul'baha and on to Shoghi Effendi as to full Interpretation of the Message of Baha'u'llah and infallible guidance to the Universal House of Justice.

The will and testement of Abdul'baha explained this in detail.

Shoghi Effendi has clarified his conferred infallibility.

The Universal House of Justice has clarified their Infalability.

We can not seperate that Infallibility from what Baha'u'llah has given.

Regards Tony

Does one mean that there is a chain of "infallibility" in the Bahaism people, please?
Only the poor ordinary followers of Bahaullah are fallible.
Well, since Bahaullah himself was a human being so he has to be fallible also, as the reason goes. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Infallibility

One may like to read post #188 in another thread, that is very much relevant here for fallibility of Bahaullah, please.

Regards