Infallibility

[CG Didymus]

Unless you're gay, Paar. Then you have to be celibate. What is the Ammadiya view on LGBT?

Or unless you're a hormone filled teenager and your religion is telling you not to do it, even alone with yourself, which I do believe is what Baha'is teach. But I guess that's okay. It worked so well with Christians.

 

[Vinayaka]

Or unless you're a hormone filled teenager and your religion is telling you not to do it, even alone with yourself, which I do believe is what Baha'is teach. But I guess that's okay. It worked so well with Christians.

Come to think of it, there's a few more groups that could possibly be affected. What about widows, widowers, people separated for economic reasons like emigration, spouses of very ill people. I presume it's bad for all but hetero married together, but I'm not sure. Then what does it say about nocturnal emission? Surely that's sinful too.

 

[Trailblazer]

Youre article doesnt relect your posts. Every LGTQ (rather than homosexual; attraction to all people is normal regardless the sex. We are human) has their own view of homophobia. Of course, the common denominator is distaste for LGBTQ rights (not homosexual) and love between two people. I dont care about bahai views. Like christianity, you believe in actions can be changed attraction cannot. But your article said attraction: Born this Way is not true.

Thats what Im commenting on. Your article and post dont line up.

I do not know what you meant by that, what does not line up and why it doesn't.

 

[Trailblazer]

Is he attracted to men or just like having sex with them?

There's a difference.

For example, my best friend for so far thirteen years dated before. She wanted to have children. She literally wanted to have sex with a man (act) in order to have a child. She said it was fine but her attraction: spiritual, mental, emotional, physical attraction is only to a female. While anyone can be stimulated by any other person if their brain wasn't bias to who is who, that doesn't mean our minds and brains are. Being gay or straight isn't just about ones physical stimulation. People do that by masturbating. It goes beyond that.

Was he attracted to men? Or did he just like the sex but still like women?

Just rephrasing the question. I know it's not for me but just seeing if you understood the difference. Not knowing about something can develop negative views over something that's just not understood especially from a "human" point of view rather than academic.

From what he told me, he preferred the company of men, but he also has sex with them.

As an aside, I have a good Baha’i friend who is heterosexual, and he married a homosexual woman. They had sex in order to have a child but they never had sex after that. They have been married about 35 years and they are very happily married. Neither one of them has had sex with anyone else. Like me, they just do not consider sex important. It happens.

Sure, all people have biological urges controlled by hormones, but this lessens after women go through menopause. It does not seem to lessen as much for men, if at all, although their abilities to perform lessen with every decade.

I think that more of what people desire is psychological as opposed to physical. A lot of this is driven by our culture that tells people they have to have sex and more is better. If people “believe” that they need sex they will want sex, but if they realize they can live without it, the need goes away. Sex isn’t really a necessity, it is just what most people want. At the end of the day, if sex is not for procreation, sex it is about physical pleasure. To try to make it into something spiritual is just fooling oneself. The fact that someone says they “feel spiritual” does not make a purely physical act spiritual.

 

[Trailblazer]

Indeed, so we agree on that.
So then why should you forbid any kind of sexual intercourse as "illegitimate or unproper"? What is your rationally motivated justification for making any kind of distinction between one type of sexual intercourse and another if people are in a steady respectable relationship?

I do not know if you are referring to heterosexual vs. homosexual intercourse.Assuming you are referring to both, the answer is in that quote I posted. Note the bolded words:

'The Bahá’í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love, companionate marriage and others, all of which it considers positively harmful to man and to the society in which he lives. The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this very purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá’ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.'
(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, a copy of which was sent to the compiler with a letter dated March 8, 1981)
Lights of Guidance/Chastity and Sex Education - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith​

Why do you think it is “rational” for people to have sex with anyone they want to, with no restrictions? If someone loves someone and is in a steady respectable relationship, why not get married?

Why not just lay our cards on the table? The “reason” people want to have no holds barred is because sex feels good and people like to feel good.Moreover, many people do not want the commitment that comes with marriage. They do not see any harm in having sex out of wedlock because they think it is harmless, that it hurts nobody. But it is harmful to society because it has an effect upon families and the family is the most basic unit of society, the bedrock upon which it rests.

From the Book of Laws which is the Most Holy Book of the Baha’i Faith:

“The Bahá’í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Bahá’í law thus restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.” The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 223​

Having sex out of wedlock is also harmful to individuals even though they do not realize it. If it was not harmful to individuals and/or to society, God would not have revealed Laws disallowing premarital sex in the Bible, the Qur’an and the Writings of Baha’u’llah. Do you think you know more than an All-Knowing and All-Wise God about what is good for people?

Limiting sexual activity to marriage between a man and a woman is certainly not popular nowadays, even among many religious people, but it is what God has ordained through religious Laws. If you do not believe in God and are not a member of a religion there is no reason to adhere to any religious Laws, so why not just let religious people decide for themselves what is right for them?Why don’t we have a right to our opinion without getting swarmed and called irrational or unfair, just because we want to maintain high standards of behavior? We are not legislating on anyone’s behavior, there is no law against sex out of marriage, and in fact all the laws are changing to be in favor of homosexuals. Popular opinion has won out over the Laws of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

But Muhammad and Baha'u'llah had multiple wives. So God does change his mind about what is "moral"?

What does multiple wives have to do with morality? That was the custom in Islam. You need not assume it has anything to do with sex, but that is what people assume in this culture where sex predominates peoples' minds..

Yes, religious laws do change over time. In Islam men were allowed to have up to four wives. In the Baha'i Faith only one wife is allowed. Baha'u'llah took His wives before He wrote His Book of Laws so He was not subject to Baha'i Law.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I do not know what you meant by that, what does not line up and why it doesn't.

Your link mentioned there is no such thing as Born This Way. Born this

I do not know what you meant by that, what does not line up and why it doesn't.

Your article says that there is no such thing as being Born

This Way. What’s most amazing to me about the “born gay” phenomenon is that the scientific evidence for it is thin as a reed, yet it doesn’t matter. It’s an idea with such social utility that one doesn’t need much evidence in order to make it attractive and credible…

We (homosexuals) can change our psysiological and biological attractions because thats what Born this Way means. We cannot; the article argues against that.

In that same post, first paragraph 321, you said it cannot. We can change our behaviors, I agree. A lot of people who give us the benefit of the doubt, we agree you cant change, but then we stand on a wall because we are denied to be with the person we love. It goes beyond psyiological and biological attractions. We are Born to Love. So, going against actions is like telling a straight married couple they cant have sex, attraction is enough.

But your article doesnt reflect your points. Born this Way means we are biologically and psychologically attracted to people. Regardles our sex and gender, humans are attracted to other humans.

Why the conflicting views? I know in Catholicism (just information) they explain it as -we agree you cant change but youre disordered so you are tempted to. You have more temptation than the average straight Joe Smoe- like a person at an AA meeting or something.

I dont know if Bahai, Muslims, or Jews sees us as disabled. Some non-theists do too. -Shrugs-

But, can you explain how the rejection of Born This Way reflects your views that we are regardless our actions?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

From what he told me, he preferred the company of men, but he also has sex with them.

As an aside, I have a good Baha’i friend who is heterosexual, and he married a homosexual woman. They had sex in order to have a child but they never had sex after that. They have been married about 35 years and they are very happily married. Neither one of them has had sex with anyone else. Like me, they just do not consider sex important. It happens.

Sure, all people have biological urges controlled by hormones, but this lessens after women go through menopause. It does not seem to lessen as much for men, if at all, although their abilities to perform lessen with every decade.

I think that more of what people desire is psychological as opposed to physical. A lot of this is driven by our culture that tells people they have to have sex and more is better. If people “believe” that they need sex they will want sex, but if they realize they can live without it, the need goes away. Sex isn’t really a necessity, it is just what most people want. At the end of the day, if sex is not for procreation, sex it is about physical pleasure. To try to make it into something spiritual is just fooling oneself. The fact that someone says they “feel spiritual” does not make a purely physical act spiritual.

True. America believes sex is an expression of physcial love between two people. So, at least to many of us, sex isnt just an action. Psychological is important and we also feel that touch is also important. Animals touch without needng to procreate. My friend isnt attracted to men but she had sex with her friend to have a child. That father is still with her as the kids father and friend. So, sex means more than just going to bed.

You have assexuals probably have sex not specific to being stimulated, but the point of touch. The weird thing about it is christianity (I dont know how others interpret it) sees sex outside of marriage as something negative as if sex between two people who love each other is a sin until one says I do.

Which is odd becauses sex isnt a moral issue. It can be, I guess, but I see it that way with people who dont love each other. When two people do, I dont see the imorality of it.

As for your friend, thats just kinda odd. But then, I wasn ever heterosexual and dont enjoy or feel comfortable around men in that way; so, I cant relate.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your link mentioned there is no such thing as Born This Way. Born this


Your article says that there is no such thing as being Born

This Way. What’s most amazing to me about the “born gay” phenomenon is that the scientific evidence for it is thin as a reed, yet it doesn’t matter. It’s an idea with such social utility that one doesn’t need much evidence in order to make it attractive and credible…

We (homosexuals) can change our psysiological and biological attractions because thats what Born this Way means. We cannot; the article argues against that.

In that same post, first paragraph 321, you said it cannot. We can change our behaviors, I agree. A lot of people who give us the benefit of the doubt, we agree you cant change, but then we stand on a wall because we are denied to be with the person we love. It goes beyond psyiological and biological attractions. We are Born to Love. So, going against actions is like telling a straight married couple they cant have sex, attraction is enough.

But your article doesnt reflect your points. Born this Way means we are biologically and psychologically attracted to people. Regardles our sex and gender, humans are attracted to other humans.

Why the conflicting views? I know in Catholicism (just information) they explain it as -we agree you cant change but youre disordered so you are tempted to. You have more temptation than the average straight Joe Smoe- like a person at an AA meeting or something.

I dont know if Bahai, Muslims, or Jews sees us as disabled. Some non-theists do too. -Shrugs-

But, can you explain how the rejection of Born This Way reflects your views that we are regardless our actions?

The thing is, I do not know enough about this to comment on it from any scientific or even psychological point of view and I do not think there is any consensus, any proof as to whether people are born this way. There are conflicting opinions. It really does not matter to me anyway. The important thing is that we should never judge anyone. Just because my religion has certain Laws, that does not mean I judge anyone. Just because i do not consider sex important to me anymore, that does not mean I judge anyone. We are all different and at different points in our lives. There was a time when sex was very important to me but my priorities have shifted since I returned to the Baha'i Faith and started to try to get close to God.

Baha'u'llah said that each person should be looking at their own faults and not what we might think are the faults of others because each one of us knows our-self better than anyone else knows us.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45​

 

[Trailblazer]

True. America believes sex is an expression of physcial love between two people. So, at least to many of us, sex isnt just an action. Psychological is important and we also feel that touch is also important. Animals touch without needng to procreate. My friend isnt attracted to men but she had sex with her friend to have a child. That father is still with her as the kids father and friend. So, sex means more than just going to bed.

You have assexuals probably have sex not specific to being stimulated, but the point of touch. The weird thing about it is christianity (I dont know how others interpret it) sees sex outside of marriage as something negative as if sex between two people who love each other is a sin until one says I do.

Which is odd becauses sex isnt a moral issue. It can be, I guess, but I see it that way with people who dont love each other. When two people do, I dont see the imorality of it.

As for your friend, thats just kinda odd. But then, I wasn ever heterosexual and dont enjoy or feel comfortable around men in that way; so, I cant relate.

I really do not consider sex out of wedlock immoral. To me immoral means hating, judging, killing, stealing, lying, being selfish, stuff like that. Sex is just sex. If one's religion teaches or has laws that we are supposed to have sex only in wedlock, then I think we should follow those teachings or laws, but if people do not even believe in God I do not think those laws apply to them.

It is a Baha'i belief that in the distant future, everyone will believe in God and adhere to one religion, and by then people will be able to follow the laws, but we are not at that point yet. Most people do not even understand why the laws of religion are important, so why would they follow them? Yesterday I was talking to my Christian coworker about a Bahai Law and she considered it strange.Christianity is a lawless religion because they believe they are saved by grace alone, but the Bahai Faith is a religion of laws. This is all new to most people so it seems strange.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The thing is, I do not know enough about this to comment on it from any scientific or even psychological point of view and I do not think there is any consensus, any proof as to whether people are born this way. There are conflicting opinions. It really does not matter to me anyway. The important thing is that we should never judge anyone. Just because my religion has certain Laws, that does not mean I judge anyone. Just because i do not consider sex important to me anymore, that does not mean I judge anyone. We are all different and at different points in our lives. There was a time when sex was very important to me but my priorities have shifted since I returned to the Baha'i Faith and started to try to get close to God.

Baha'u'llah said that each person should be looking at their own faults and not what we might think are the faults of others because each one of us knows our-self better than anyone else knows us.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45​

Shrugs

It matters to a lot of people insofar it affect our US law and the rights of minorities. Its also a problem with bahai, Christian, Muslim, and other abrahamics faiths because practitioners are highly insulted by the contradiction of loving half the person but not all.

Its huge. I'm not an activist so I don't have much influence on the political and legal part. I do wish it was an interest for people who want to think of the best interest of people while putting aside their own views for the benefit of others. But it depends on the person and who they wish to support.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I really do not consider sex out of wedlock immoral. To me immoral means hating, judging, killing, stealing, lying, being selfish, stuff like that. Sex is just sex. If one's religion teaches or has laws that we are supposed to have sex only in wedlock, then I think we should follow those teachings or laws, but if people do not even believe in God I do not think those laws apply to them.

It is a Baha'i belief that in the distant future, everyone will believe in God and adhere to one religion, and by then people will be able to follow the laws, but we are not at that point yet. Most people do not even understand why the laws of religion are important, so why would they follow them? Yesterday I was talking to my Christian coworker about a Bahai Law and she considered it strange.Christianity is a lawless religion because they believe they are saved by grace alone, but the Bahai Faith is a religion of laws. This is all new to most people so it seems strange.

I don't think you see it, but judging doesn't need to be negative. A lot of religions by their nature insults the person beside it. Some believers know and are honest about it like JW, but others are ignorant of it.

When you have all people believe in one god, that, in itself, is negative because that belief it only benefits the people who believe it without giving any thought to the other persons well-being.

People have been killed over that type of thinking. Descrimination has as well. It doesnt need to be an act pressure from baha, words can be more harmful than actions. It doesn't need to be historical.

I can't cure the world but it's very sad and tiresome seeing how people's beliefs affect others. I wish I were an activist sometimes but I'm not one to educate/evangelize or carry signs to make change.

 

[Trailblazer]

Shrugs

It matters to a lot of people insofar it affect our US law and the rights of minorities. Its also a problem with bahai, Christian, Muslim, and other abrahamics faiths because practitioners are highly insulted by the contradiction of loving half the person but not all.

Its huge. I'm not an activist so I don't have much influence on the political and legal part. I do wish it was an interest for people who want to think of the best interest of people while putting aside their own views for the benefit of others. But it depends on the person and who they wish to support.

I did not say that it did not matter. I said it does not matter to me personally. Sex is just sex. I get tired of talking about it. It is not who we are. It is just a biological mechanism. It is important to people because people like to enjoy the physical pleasures, but it is just physical, not spiritual, so that is why it does not matter to me.

That said, I believe all people should be treated fairly and not discriminated against, so support gay rights. I know many other Baha’is who also support gay rights, but Baha’is are disallowed from being involved in political causes.

If Christians, Muslims or Baha’is feel like their religion is only loving half the person then they do not understand what their own religions teach, because all these religions teach that we are spiritual beings, not physical bodies. So it is not that we are a body and a soul, half and half, both of which are equal. We are a soul and the body is just a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive on earth... As Jesus said, the flesh profits nothing:

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Similar verses can be found in the Qur’an and the Baha’i Writings.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think you see it, but judging doesn't need to be negative. A lot of religions by their nature insults the person beside it. Some believers know and are honest about it like JW, but others are ignorant of it.

When you have all people believe in one god, that, in itself, is negative because that belief it only benefits the people who believe it without giving any thought to the other persons well-being.

People have been killed over that type of thinking. Descrimination has as well. It doesnt need to be an act pressure from baha, words can be more harmful than actions. It doesn't need to be historical.

I can't cure the world but it's very sad and tiresome seeing how people's beliefs affect others. I wish I were an activist sometimes but I'm not one to educate/evangelize or carry signs to make change.

A religion does not insult anyone just because it exists and has a certain set of beliefs. Sometimes religious people insult others with their beliefs, but the religion is not to blame for what people do.

All people have a right to their beliefs or non-beliefs. It is not the fault of believers if it makes atheists uncomfortable that believers believe in God. It is what we “do” with our beliefs that matters, how we treat other people, our words and actions.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Don't need to reply. Just sayinsa

A religion does not insult anyone just because it exists and has a certain set of beliefs. Sometimes religious people insult others with their beliefs, but the religion is not to blame for what people do.

All people have a right to their beliefs or non-beliefs. It is not the fault of believers if it makes atheists uncomfortable that believers believe in God. It is what we “do” with our beliefs that matters, how we treat other people, our words and actions.

Not specific to atheist.

That is why there is descrimination because the view "thats on them." Like racism and other things the majority doesnt doesn't experience what minorities go through (thank gosh) so it's hard to empathize (not sympathize).

While I'm not an activist either things like LGBT, Deaf, African American rights and supporting people with Epilepsy is a passion. I dont know what it's like to be Deaf. Nor have I experienced AF descrimination at its fullest. Though I do understand that love for others doesn't happen from afar. Catholics won't support gay rights but they invite us to their Church.

They let us take four out all sacraments without needing to sleep with anyone. If we are female or identify as gay we cant take all. That's an insult to the practitioner, the Muslim, the bahais. I don't practice Catholicism so it's no longer an insult for me.

I don' don't agree with any religion faith or spirituality that redefines who I am as a person.

This is how many feel and a lot of people leave religion.

That isn't their fault. It's not a petty party thing. Religions have to own up for what they do and accept how they treat people despite individual feelings of secondary love. It cant can't be two sided. One thing I like about JW and how they see others is they own up to their views on other people. God is conditional and they say people will not be saved by god if they don't follow his conditions. Couple of other things I can't think of at the moment but telling me I will go to hell bothers me less than hugging me and then telling me. Do either or.

But as witnessed and experiences bahai and Christian don't think that way. It's ignorance. It's not that you don't care. It' that to go out of your comfort zone realize carying as an action. Not compromising your faith but seeing how your faith affects people and helping without putting blame on the other.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
Please be specific with a quote/verse from Quran for Islam to substantiate one's point of view.

The same way from Baha'ullah, please be specific with a quote from Kitab-i-Aqdas written by Baha'ullah himself as a Law Book.

General understanding of the Bahais about Bahaullah won't serve a meaningful purpose here.

I have read here in these forums that every Bahai has his own independent understanding of Bahaism.

And Allah has revealed to you the Book and Wisdom and has taught you that which you did not know. [4:113]

Hikmah (Wisdom) here is different from the Book (which is referring to Quran), so it is revelation besides the Quran.

And remember the favor of Allah upon you and what has been revealed to you of the Book and wisdom by which He instructs you. [2:231]

And whoever obeys the Messenger, thereby obeys Allâh. (4:80)

Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed.(53:3–4)
This verse say anything prophet says, is a revelation (not just the Quran).

Sorry.
We were discussing the specific words. Please don't get from the verses of Quran which is not written there.
I did not expect it from a Bahai , they are supposed to be reason oriented. Aren't they? Please

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have read here in these forums that every Bahai has his own independent understanding

That is correct as G_d's Messages are of no compulsion and it is for us to decide what they are offering.

Likewise a Baha'i will read the Koran mindful of what Baha'u'llah has taught us of G_d and Muhammad and also offer that view.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Come to think of it, there's a few more groups that could possibly be affected. What about widows, widowers, people separated for economic reasons like emigration, spouses of very ill people. I presume it's bad for all but hetero married together, but I'm not sure. Then what does it say about nocturnal emission? Surely that's sinful too.

A Christian once told that nocturnal emissions were God's way of giving men a unsinful way to get away with getting off. I asked if it counted for emissions that happened during daydreams?

 

[CG Didymus]

From what he told me, he preferred the company of men, but he also has sex with them.

As an aside, I have a good Baha’i friend who is heterosexual, and he married a homosexual woman. They had sex in order to have a child but they never had sex after that. They have been married about 35 years and they are very happily married. Neither one of them has had sex with anyone else. Like me, they just do not consider sex important. It happens.

Sure, all people have biological urges controlled by hormones, but this lessens after women go through menopause. It does not seem to lessen as much for men, if at all, although their abilities to perform lessen with every decade.

I think that more of what people desire is psychological as opposed to physical. A lot of this is driven by our culture that tells people they have to have sex and more is better. If people “believe” that they need sex they will want sex, but if they realize they can live without it, the need goes away. Sex isn’t really a necessity, it is just what most people want. At the end of the day, if sex is not for procreation, sex it is about physical pleasure. To try to make it into something spiritual is just fooling oneself. The fact that someone says they “feel spiritual” does not make a purely physical act spiritual.

Isn't God the one who made the hormones and made sex feel good? And then, complains when people find different ways to enjoy it?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

paarsurrey said: ↑
Please be specific with a quote/verse from Quran for Islam to substantiate one's point of view.

The same way from Baha'ullah, please be specific with a quote from Kitab-i-Aqdas written by Baha'ullah himself as a Law Book.

General understanding of the Bahais about Bahaullah won't serve a meaningful purpose here.

I have read here in these forums that every Bahai has his own independent understanding of Bahaism.



Sorry.
We were discussing the specific words. Please don't get from the verses of Quran which is not written there.
I did not expect it from a Bahai , they are supposed to be reason oriented. Aren't they? Please

Regards

You were asking for verses of Quran which states the Prophet is infallible, and the verses I quoted are showing this point of view. Why not? When God has given wisdom to Muhammad, how could He make errors? Would not the Wisdom from God secure Him from mistakes?