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Inherited sin: yes or no

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
After all it is God's plan for us to live on the earth and thus it was created to suit us and we were created in which we are able to live on earth .....

Even if you believe this, you would have to think God could have made the gravity 4 times as great, and then just made us 4 times more able to withstand it, right?

It's arbitrary. A few years ago I had a discussion with a religious person who was convinced that if "God placed" the Earth one inch closer to the sun we would all burn up, and one inch further away we would all freeze to death.

He didn't much care for my explanation of a star's "Goldilocks zone" or the fact that we're discovering more and more planets that fall within the GZ of the stars they orbit.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
We are the puddles yes. In that we didn't exist independently from earth with our current physical resistance to certain levels of air pressure and gravity, needed some uber-being to create a planet with just the right levels of each to suit us. Rather, our species developed to fit our surroundings. If there was way more or less air pressure on Earth, humans...all creatures for that matter...would have developed differently.
I don't believe Man is an accident.
and I do believe ...having made creation....
God abides by His own Word

that is to say.....that Man is a creation ....works.
that Man is formed in a manner suitable for this planet....works

other planets are not as suitable to form life
so...no life there
and God abides.....if the chemistry and gravity and temperature are not 'just right'
no life there

and science would agree....citing the 'Goldie Locks' situation we enjoy
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Peace and blessings to all. I started to ponder upon this subject after my husband (who is Muslim) and I watched a debate with the well known writer, public speaker and missionary Ahmed Hoosen Deedat. I am Christian and while I acknowledge Mr. Deedat had valid points and is very knowledgeable, I can't help but to ask more....questions that I haven't heard anyone ask like...
According to Islam...
1. Was Adam and Eve created in this flesh we have? (I know they were created from dust or clay) were they bound to die just as we are bound to die?
2. Will those who make it to paradise physically transform turning this flesh into a new glorious body?
3. And if so, why? If this flesh we have isn't tainted and sin isn't inherited then why would our bodies have to transform in order to enter heaven?

If all we need to enter heaven is to have done more good deeds than bad deeds, then why would or bodies need to transform. Especially if God made Adam and Eve in this flesh and according to the Quran they were living in the paradise before they were casted out which brings me to another question....
According to Islam....
If all we need to be in God's good grace is to have done more good deeds than bad ones, then why did God cast Adam and Eve out of the paradise after they were tricked by satan and God accepted their repentance. Why would he let us into paradise after all the sins we have committed if he casted Adam and Eve out after only one sin which was initiated by satan? Repentance is a good deed...isn't it? And I'm sure by the time they committed that one sin, Adam and Eve had already done way more good deeds. They obeyed God upto that point....right? And even when they sinned, it was because they were tricked by satan. Isn't God the most merciful? According to the scriptures, God knew satan would try to trick them and that's why God warned them so intensely. So why would God cast them out of the paradise and punish them so severely for something that he knew would happen; punish them so severely even after he accepted their repentance? It just sounds like God isn't that merciful. How can we make it into paradise? Adam and Eve were cast OUT for one sin so how will we make it INTO paradise with all the sins we have and will continue to commit intentionally and unintentionally?

We are not held responsible by God for the sins of others.

However, our sins affect others -and later generations.

When it is said that the sins of the fathers will be visited upon the sons, etc.,
That does not mean the sons are somehow guilty, but that the overall less-than-ideal situation caused by the sins of the fathers will affect the sons.
That can include how God must deal with later generations to correct them.
If previous generations obeyed God and diligently taught their children, for example, the situation of the children would be better and God would be able to perfect them to a greater degree -not start all over again.

Though Satan and Adam and Eve sinned before we did, they are no more guilty than we are, and we are not held responsible for their sins.
Sin would have happened regardless -because we are new and inexperienced.

It is written that we must master it. We must become the sort of people who will not cause disorder in eternity. It is not so much about guilt as preparedness.
If it were about guilt, God would not give us salvation by grace.
However, it is written that a man is also justified by works -and not faith alone.
Therefore we must strive to overcome sin -and not rely solely on grace or foregiveness.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
I do not believe Adam nor Eve repented. They were perfect and their sin was willful and deliberate. Though Eve believed the Devil's lies, the Bible reveals Adam did not. (1 Timothy 2:14) When confronted with their sin, both sought to deflect their blame to others. God passed the death sentence on both and they both eventually died. Adam passed on to his descendants sin and death according to the Scriptures. (Romans 5:12) IMO, the notion that God judges us on the basis of the number of good deeds versus sins we perform, is also not valid. (Ezekiel 18:21-32)

Adam dying meant nothing - there is a Resurrection. No scripture in the Bible indicates that if Adam had been so evil that he could not be forgiven. If Adam had been a bad man Cain would have run to him after killing Abel and rebelling against God.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
We are the puddles yes. In that we didn't exist independently from earth with our current physical resistance to certain levels of air pressure and gravity, needed some uber-being to create a planet with just the right levels of each to suit us. Rather, our species developed to fit our surroundings. If there was way more or less air pressure on Earth, humans...all creatures for that matter...would have developed differently.

Or wouldn't have developed at all.
 

Barry Scott

New Member
It has nothing to do with inherent sin but rather a false deity(demiurge) claiming to be the real creator. Jesus referred to him as the prince of this world and his other names Yahweh, Jehovah, Yaldabaoth . It has infiltrated bloodlines of humanity not because of (sin) but because of the unique abilities of certain humans. Requiring blood sacrifice is a very dark practice linked to dark arts not a loving creator who is supposedly omnipotent.
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
Peace and blessings to all. ... I can't help but to ask more....questions that I haven't heard anyone ask like...
According to Islam...
1. Was Adam and Eve created in this flesh we have? (I know they were created from dust or clay) were they bound to die just as we are bound to die?
Peace be on you.
From Ahmadiyya-Muslim understandings:
Yes, they were full human after a long chain of events of ceation+guided evolution.
But, they were not first people.
They died as people are bound to die i.e. soul goes back to God, body goes to earth.



2. Will those who make it to paradise physically transform turning this flesh into a new glorious body?
Yes, Hereafter and happenings after that will not be like physical things of this world.

We will raise you into a form of which you have not the slightest knowledge.
Quran- Surah Al-Waqiah (Ch. 56: V.62)

In recent times, the founder of the Ahmadiyya Community, Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) of Qadian, presented this view of spiritual existence as against carnal existence in his unique and outstanding treatise entitled 'The Philosophy of the Teachings of Islam". All views propounded in the book are well documented with Quranic references and traditions of the Holy Founder of Islam. A brief account is reproduced here.

According to his profound study, the life in the hereafter would not be material. Instead, it would be of a spiritual nature of which we can only visualise certain aspects. We cannot determine precisely how things will take shape. One of the salient features of his vision of the hereafter concerns the soul giving birth to another rarer entity, which would occupy the same position in relation to the soul as the soul occupies in relation to our carnal existence here on earth. This birth of a soul from within the soul will be related to the sort of life that we have lived here on earth. If our lives here are spent in submission to the will of God and in accordance with His commands, our tastes gradually become cultured and attuned to enjoying spiritual pleasures as against carnal pleasures. Within the soul a sort of embryonic soul begins to take shape. New faculties are born and new tastes are acquired, in which those accustomed to carnal pleasures find no enjoyment. These new types of refined human beings can find the content of their heart. Sacrifice instead of the usurpation of others' rights becomes enjoyable. Forgiveness takes the upper hand of revenge, and love with no selfish motive is born like a second nature, replacing all relationships that have ulterior motives. Thus, one can say a new soul within the soul is in the offing.

All these projections regarding the development of the soul are inferences drawn from various verses of the Holy Quran, yet the exact nature of future events cannot be precisely determined. One can only say that something along these lines would take place, the details of which lie beyond the reach of human understanding.
Ref: https://www.alislam.org/books/study-of-islam/life-after-death.html



3. And if so, why? If this flesh we have isn't tainted and sin isn't inherited then why would our bodies have to transform in order to enter heaven?
He lived in this world, not in paradise. [According to Quran, once one in paradise, they are not expelled.]
It is not related with so-called original sin. This sin did not existed according to Quran.
Adam forgot something, repented, and forgiven....That is all.
This world is of less dimensions (x,y,z) and time.
For complete manifestation, Hereafter will have comprehensive dimensions.



If all we need to enter heaven is to have done more good deeds than bad deeds, then why would or bodies need to transform. Especially if God made Adam and Eve in this flesh and according to the Quran they were living in the paradise before they were casted out which brings me to another question....

They were not casted out from paradise.
They were living in the world.


Quran
[2:36] And We said: ‘O Adam, dwell thou and thy wife in the garden, and eat therefrom plentifully wherever you will, but approach not this tree, lest you be of the wrongdoers.’

[2:37] But Satan caused them both to slip by means of it and drove them out of the state in which they were. And We said: ‘Go forth; some of you are enemies of others, and for you there is an abode in the earth and a provision for a time.

[2:38] Then Adam learnt from his Lord certain words of prayer. So He turned towards him with mercy. Surely, He is Oft-Returning with compassion, and is Merciful.

[2:39] We said: ‘Go forth, all of you, from here. And if there comes to you guidance from Me, then whoso shall follow My guidance, on them shall come no fear, nor shall they grieve.’

'from here' does not mean paradise. Could be directive to move to other part of land (or condition, state)




According to Islam....
If all we need to be in God's good grace is to have done more good deeds than bad ones, then why did God cast Adam and Eve out of the paradise after they were tricked by satan and God accepted their repentance. Why would he let us into paradise after all the sins we have committed if he casted Adam and Eve out after only one sin which was initiated by satan? Repentance is a good deed...isn't it? And I'm sure by the time they committed that one sin, Adam and Eve had already done way more good deeds. They obeyed God upto that point....right? And even when they sinned, it was because they were tricked by satan. Isn't God the most merciful? According to the scriptures, God knew satan would try to trick them and that's why God warned them so intensely. So why would God cast them out of the paradise and punish them so severely for something that he knew would happen; punish them so severely even after he accepted their repentance? It just sounds like God isn't that merciful. How can we make it into paradise? Adam and Eve were cast OUT for one sin so how will we make it INTO paradise with all the sins we have and will continue to commit intentionally and unintentionally?

Quran
[20:116] And verily, We had made a covenant with Adam beforehand, but he forgot, and We found in him no determination to disobey.

No original sin as we are born as image of God.
After birth we have to work out to progress and get high states of moral and spirituality.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That makes no sense considering neither Adam nor Eve knew right from wrong until after they had already eaten from the tree.

"22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"


How can Adam & Eve have wilfully sinned when they didn't know the concept existed, never mind what it was? God didn't take any time to explain to them what sin was prior to this; nor did he gift them the knowledge of what right & wrong was. Adam & Eve had to take it. From a tree that God placed in Eden... deliberately... knowing they were going to eat from it....

If Adam & Eve 'sinned' then in what way is the Biblical god a just one?

So, to answer the original question: "Inherited sin: yes or no?" No.

Both Adam and his wife knew that God had forbidden them from eating from that one tree. Therefore, I believe they knew it was wrong or bad for them to do this. And they also knew the penalty for doing this. So, I believe the sense in which Adam came 'to know good and bad' was his willful grasping at moral independence, deciding for himself what is good and bad, not coming to know after the fact that what he did was wrong. The tree was simply a boundary that God put on man's freedom, an expression of God's right to decide proper conduct for his creation. By trespassing on that boundary, Adam did sin, as the Bible affirms. (Romans 5:12)
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Adam dying meant nothing - there is a Resurrection. No scripture in the Bible indicates that if Adam had been so evil that he could not be forgiven. If Adam had been a bad man Cain would have run to him after killing Abel and rebelling against God.
Adam was a perfect man, morally and physically. His sin was not the result of human weakness, but a deliberate act. Thus, by sinning Adam lost both paradise and everlasting life. Nothing in the Bible indicates that Adam will be resurrected.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
I do not believe Adam nor Eve repented. They were perfect and their sin was willful and deliberate. Though Eve believed the Devil's lies, the Bible reveals Adam did not. (1 Timothy 2:14)
Since none of that is in Genesis, where is Paul getting it from?

And if you say "from God", did God not read Genesis either?
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
I guess that's why God teases Job about knowing anything about Creation. Surely, Job would've been knowledgeable about the Genesis account, right? So he'd believe in it, but God is telling him that's stupid, so ...
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Both Adam and his wife knew that God had forbidden them from eating from that one tree.

Right.


Therefore, I believe they knew it was wrong or bad for them to do this.

Non-sequitur. They still don't have a clue of what "wrong" or "bad" are at this point - they haven't eaten from the tree! All they know is that God didn't want them to do it. He didn't say why. Further, God wasn't once equated with morality during that whole story. How was Adam supposed to know?


And they also knew the penalty for doing this.

Yes, they would die the same day they ate from the tree. They didn't. The serpent spoke the truth, God lied (again), and Adam & Eve got the rap for it. So just...


So, I believe the sense in which Adam came 'to know good and bad' was his willful grasping at moral independence, deciding for himself what is good and bad, not coming to know after the fact that what he did was wrong.

And for this they were punished? That would imply that God never meant for humans to be able to do anything on their own; and that we shouldn't really be allowed to make choices, nor decide for ourselves what is right or wrong. And that leads me back to my original question: "If Adam & Eve 'sinned' then in what way is the Biblical god a just one?"


The tree was simply a boundary that God put on man's freedom, an expression of God's right to decide proper conduct for his creation. By trespassing on that boundary, Adam did sin, as the Bible affirms. (Romans 5:12)

And who gave God the right to decide what is "proper conduct"; especially considering his perception of justice essentially boils down to "might makes right"?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
To the OP, no.

"Sin" means to "miss the mark", so how can a newborn "miss the mark" as soon as it is borne?
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Since none of that is in Genesis, where is Paul getting it from?

And if you say "from God", did God not read Genesis either?
"All Scripture is inspired of God" and often one book will mention details not mentioned in other inspired writings. (2 Timothy 3:16,17)
 
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