Inherited sin: yes or no

[Sabour]

If God made everything perfect, including Adam and Eve, wouldn't that mean that everything is uncorrupted and in its purest form

Your assumption here is that God made Adam and Eve perfect, but they were not perfect. People are not perfect. They have the ability to choose and make decisions. Angels are made without the ability to make choices, they just follow what God orders them. Adam and Eve were not angels.

And death is bad

Why do you think death is bad? For a true believer and a good person, death would draw the person closer to heaven. Once a person dies, his test is over and he is not risking failure in the test anymore if he passed it.

One thing we have to know is that life is just a stage among the stages we have to pass by to reach paradise.

6:32 And the worldly life is not but amusement and diversion; but the home of the Hereafter is best for those who fear Allah , so will you not reason?


3:14. Beautified for people is the love of that which they desire - of women and sons, heaped-up sums of gold and silver, fine branded horses, and cattle and tilled land. That is the enjoyment of worldly life, but Allah has with Him the best return.

3:15 15. Say, "Shall I inform you of [something] better than that? For those who fear Allah will be gardens in the presence of their Lord beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide eternally, and purified spouses and approval from Allah . And Allah is Seeing of [His] servants -

3:185. Every soul will taste death, and you will only be given your [full] compensation on the Day of Resurrection. So he who is drawn away from the Fire and admitted to Paradise has attained [his desire]. And what is the life of this world except the enjoyment of delusion.



18:7 Indeed, We have made that which is on the earth adornment for it that We may test them [as to] which of them is best in deed.

18:45 And present to them the example of the life of this world, [its being] like rain which We send down from the sky, and the vegetation of the earth mingles with it and [then] it becomes dry remnants, scattered by the winds. And Allah is ever, over all things, Perfect in Ability.

18:46 Wealth and children are [but] adornment of the worldly life. But the enduring good deeds are better to your Lord for reward and better for [one's] hope.


28:77 But seek, through that which Allah has given you, the home of the Hereafter; and [yet], do not forget your share of the world. And do good as Allah has done good to you. And desire not corruption in the land. Indeed, Allah does not like corrupters."who

death is a punishment

Death is not a punishment. All people taste death no matter who they were.

3:185 Every soul will taste death, and you will only be given your [full] compensation on the Day of Resurrection. So he who is drawn away from the Fire and admitted to Paradise has attained [his desire]. And what is the life of this world except the enjoyment of delusion.

In Islam, Adam and Eve were held accountable for their transgression even though they were pure, sinless,....naive and inexperienced in evil and malicious intentions; the way children are. Also, God accepted their repentance but punished them anyway by casting them out of the Paradise.

Let me ask you, if you had a child who you wanted to put in school. One day he did something bad and you told him I will punish you and put you in school to learn a couple of things. If he came later and told you I am sorry, would you take him out of school? Or would you keep him until he graduates and becomes educated and know how to conduct himself? Wouldn't you keep him so he would be qualified for the next stage in his life? Isn't it that many children see going to school as torture, while other students see it as a preparation for the next stage and overall generally rewarding? And worth having to wake up early every day and going to school for like 12 -16 years?

I would say we are students in this life.

 

[rusra02]

Lord God said:



Genesis 2:17

Who's telling a lie again?

Adam died in God's eyes that very day, and began the death process that would gradually but inevitably kill him. (Ephesians 2:9) Satan lied, telling Eve "you certainly will not die." (Genesis 3:4)

 

[Acim]

Adam died in God's eyes that very day, and began the death process that would gradually but inevitably kill him. (Ephesians 2:9)

Please explain how you are backing up assertion that Adam died in God's eyes that very day.
We literally have no indication of humans living forever prior to this, thus seems like a convenient ad hoc assertion to think / argue that had Adam not eaten of that fruit, he would still be in Eden/paradise/heaven.

Satan lied, telling Eve "you certainly will not die." (Genesis 3:4)

I still see that as (spiritual) truth, ye certainly does not die.
Arguably, the one claiming you will die is therefore dead while making that claim.

Like all stories, there is more than one way to understand what is being conveyed and I have trouble understanding how spiritual discernment doesn't see such a god is not worthy of any allegiance nor respect. Though helps my understanding to realize it is quite plausibly a dream world this god has instituted upon (actual) God's Creation, as I noted in post #52 of this thread.

Heck, I'll just start a new thread for this tangent. I can tie it to inherited sin (which I do actually believe in), but is a bit convoluted and not really the tangent I'm on anyway in this thread.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

My Muslim brothers and sisters....please try to understand the Christian perspective of sin...I have given support from the bible AND the Quran to back up my perspective yet I feel that you are not even looking and my proof.....I fully understand the Christian AND ISLAMIC interpretation of sin. In Christianity, it is a curse And in Islam it is just a part of the life that God gave us...I get it! But what I don't get is why God being perfect would create man imperfect..it just doesn't make sense. Also why would he take Adam and Eve (and it clearly says it in the Quran) out of an awesome Paradise (which Paradise to me, is a great privilege), if he accepted their repentance....it sounds like a punishment to me.....I'm sorry but I'm just trying to use common sense....
Quran 2:36
But Satan caused them to deflect therefrom and expelled them from the (happy) state in which they were; and We said: Fall down, one of you a foe unto the other! There shall be for you on earth a habitation and provision for a time.

If they were on earth already, then why does the Quran say that God told them to fall down (fall down from where?); that he provided the earth for them to live for a limited time. Weren't they living (in Paradise) on the earth already for a limited time?
God casted them out of paradise....
Paradise- (and this is the exact definition found in the dictionary)
1.
heaven, as the final abode of the righteous.
2.
an intermediate place for the departed souls of the righteous awaiting resurrection.
3.
(often initial capital letter) Eden (def 1).
4.
a place of extreme beauty, delight, or happiness.
5.
a state of supreme happiness; bliss.
6.
Architecture.
parvis.
an enclosure beside a church, as an atrium or cloister.
--http://www.dictionary.com/browse/paradise

Does paradise mean something different in Islam?
Also, if it wasn't a punishment placed on Adam and Eve, why didn't he allow them to stay in Paradise and why mankind being the offspring of Adam and Eve, are we not living in Paradise now? Are we not trying to find the straight path to make it to Paradise now? And those of us who do make it, will we ascend to Paradise in this flesh or physical form? (I don't believe so)

Please! brothers and sisters...this is not difficult to comprehend.

Do people not mourn, cry, suffer, feel sorrow and grief when our love ones die? (Doesn't sound good to me)
In the Bible when God discovers that Eve fell into Satan's temptation, he says "what have you done?" expressing his disappointment.

 

[muhammad_isa]

In Islam, Adam and Eve were held accountable for their transgression even though they were pure, sinless,....naive and inexperienced in evil and malicious intentions; the way children are. Also, God accepted their repentance but punished them anyway by casting them out of the Paradise.

Yes .. now that's very interesting .. "cast them out of paradise"
It was always to be though, wasn't it? "Inherit" is probably not the right word to use .. in any case, people normally understand it to mean we are "guilty until proved innocent" at birth. The opposite is true .. Babies are born pure and only get tainted by their parents or environment, and their sins as adults

 

[rusra02]

Please explain how you are backing up assertion that Adam died in God's eyes that very day.
We literally have no indication of humans living forever prior to this, thus seems like a convenient ad hoc assertion to think / argue that had Adam not eaten of that fruit, he would still be in Eden/paradise/heaven.



I still see that as (spiritual) truth, ye certainly does not die.
Arguably, the one claiming you will die is therefore dead while making that claim.

Like all stories, there is more than one way to understand what is being conveyed and I have trouble understanding how spiritual discernment doesn't see such a god is not worthy of any allegiance nor respect. Though helps my understanding to realize it is quite plausibly a dream world this god has instituted upon (actual) God's Creation, as I noted in post #52 of this thread.

Heck, I'll just start a new thread for this tangent. I can tie it to inherited sin (which I do actually believe in), but is a bit convoluted and not really the tangent I'm on anyway in this thread.

God blessed the first couple he created and placed them in a lovely garden home, with the prospect of filling the earth with their offspring. By telling Adam he would die if he ate the fruit from the tree God set apart, it seems to me the converse is true; that had he not disobeyed God, Adam would not have died. This is also shown by God designating "the
tree of life " from which man could "eat and live forever", that everlasting life was Adam's prospect. I believe the rest of the Holy Scriptures confirm this to be God's purpose for mankind. (Revelation 21:3,4)

 

[Acim]

God blessed the first couple he created and placed them in a lovely garden home, with the prospect of filling the earth with their offspring.

Where in Genesis 2 did God bless the first couple?

By telling Adam he would die if he ate the fruit from the tree God set apart, it seems to me the converse is true; that had he not disobeyed God, Adam would not have died. This is also shown by God designating "the
tree of life " from which man could "eat and live forever", that everlasting life was Adam's prospect. I believe the rest of the Holy Scriptures confirm this to be God's purpose for mankind. (Revelation 21:3,4)

The reader has no basis for believing the converse is true. Anyway, I started that other thread and noted that is, as I see it, a set up by a lesser god.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Adam died in God's eyes that very day

What is your evidence? God continues to look after them and even has a sit down with Cain after Abel's death. It's not like God never speaks to humans again.

Satan lied, telling Eve "you certainly will not die." (Genesis 3:4)

Satan isn't IN that story!!!
And this is what GOD says (are you saying God is lying?): 22 And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever— 23 therefore Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Is this NOT what the serpent said was God's REAL motive (not sharing super powers)? Paul is either lying or is using a non-canon story but either way, Genesis DOES NOT include what he thinks happened.

But what I don't get is why God being perfect would create man imperfect..it just doesn't make sense.

Define God's perfection and where did you get it from? Who says perfection has to mean what we tend to think it means? Why can't perfection mean something like "can adapt to any situation" or "can influence anything" or something? Why do we let people like Plato inform our notion of perfection? If you have a carefully landscaped yard, it may LOOK perfect, more perfect than the natural woods nearby, but those woods have an ecology to assist with threats that your "perfect" landscaping WON'T unless you took care to account for ecological needs in your landscaping. Most likely, you picked stuff that looked pretty to you, but is subject to disease and pests. Pretty is not "perfection". If the "end" ever DOES come, I can assure you that the majority of people in developed nations who have had it much better off than some 3rd world place will suffer the most. Only the people who already dealt with a sucky day will get through it (and the meek shall inherit the earth because the others will die after not being able to log on to their email that day).

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Yes .. now that's very interesting .. "cast them out of paradise"
It was always to be though, wasn't it? "Inherit" is probably not the right word to use .. in any case, people normally understand it to mean we are "guilty until proved innocent" at birth. The opposite is true .. Babies are born pure and only get tainted by their parents or environment, and their sins as adults

I'm sorry but I think you're missing my point...I'm very familiar with the Islamic concept of sin (which I don't fully agree with) but my point here is that in Islam, it is taught that God forgives (and does not punish) those who have done wrong without having had bad or malicious intentions which is why children are considered pure and innocent; even if they knowingly misbehave. Because even if a child understands sin intellectually, they are not familiar or don't understand sin experientially. Adam and Eve were also pure and innocent before they ate from the forbidden tree...they only knew good until they ate from the forbidden tree....they have never experienced sin therfore they were childlike when it comes to sin.....they didn't sin with bad or malicious intentions...they were tricked and deceived into disobeying God (which in Islam they were forgiven for) yet God casted them out of the Paradise which sounds like a punishment to me.....so to sum it up- God doesn't punish a person for a sin they didn't commit with bad intentions and doesn't punish if he has already forgiven but yet when it comes to Adam and Eve (in my view) God did punish them. Please let me know if my explanation isn't clear.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Most likely, you picked stuff that looked pretty to you, but is subject to disease and pests. Pretty is not "perfection". If the "end" ever DOES come, I can assure you that the majority of people in developed nations who have had it much better off than some 3rd world place will suffer the most. Only the people who already dealt with a sucky day will get through it (and the meek shall inherit the earth because the others will die after not being able to log on to their email that day).

Perfection is something beyond our limited (human) comprehension. Our flesh and physical form limits our understanding of all things spiritual. I agree with the notion that just because something "looks perfect" doesn't mean that it is. You mentioned " stuff that looked pretty to you, but is subject to disease and pests." Which I agree with. In this world there is no such thing as perfection. Everything on this earth is subject to disease, corruption, decay, and death. Would God intentionally create everything that exists this way? The Bible says this...
Psalm 50:2
From Zion, perfect in beauty, God shines forth
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
Hebrews 11:40
since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
2 Samuel 22:31
“As for God, his way is perfect: The Lord’s word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him.
Genesis 1:31
God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

 

[muhammad_isa]

...
Adam and Eve were also pure and innocent before they ate from the forbidden tree...they only knew good until they ate from the forbidden tree....they have never experienced sin therfore they were childlike when it comes to sin.....they didn't sin with bad or malicious intentions...they were tricked and deceived into disobeying God (which in Islam they were forgiven for) yet God casted them out of the Paradise which sounds like a punishment to me.....

Again, it's very interesting. Is the story to be understood literally? ie. a real tree .. or is it like a parable/simile to get the message across?
Whichever it is, the point is they couldn't go back to living in the same situation with what they had learnt! So .. not a punishment as such .. more a consequence of their deeds, whether intentional or not

..so to sum it up- God doesn't punish a person for a sin they didn't commit with bad intentions and doesn't punish if he has already forgiven but yet when it comes to Adam and Eve (in my view) God did punish them..

Almighty God punishes whomsoever He wills and forgives whomsoever He wills .. there is not one of us who is sinless, and sins have consequences whether "accidental" or not. The forgiving of sins does not necessarily mean that any consequences of our deeds magically disappear .. this subject is also important in 'purgatory' [an intermediate state after physical death in which those destined for heaven undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven] .. that would be another way of looking at it

 

[Tranquil Servant]

.. there is not one of us who is sinless, and sins have consequences whether "accidental" or not. The forgiving of sins does not necessarily mean that any consequences of our deeds magically disappear

Now this I agree with .....This is similar to what Christianity teaches (except for the part about purgatory)... A sin IS a sin (this isn't what Islam teaches) it's not enough to ask for forgiveness....our souls need to be purified. Yes....the flesh dies (because of sin) but that doesn't necessarily make our souls pure. Our souls need to be purified (which is the point I'm trying to get to) and I believe there's only one way to do that. ...
Proverbs 10:16
The wages of the righteous is life, but the earnings of the wicked are sin and death.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Hebrews 9:22
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Hebrews 10
10 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”[a]
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

'purgatory' [an intermediate state after physical death in which those destined for heaven undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven] .. that would be another way of looking at it

I reject the doctrine of purgatory....sorry!

 

[Sabour]

God being perfect would create man imperfect

I think that video may help. It answers that part around 5:30

Also why would he take Adam and Eve (and it clearly says it in the Quran) out of an awesome Paradise (which Paradise to me, is a great privilege), if he accepted their repentance

Because God already created Adam and Eve with the purpose of living on Earth, but they started life in heaven. The proof for that in the Quraan is

2:30 And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

 

[rusra02]

Where in Genesis 2 did God bless the first couple?



The reader has no basis for believing the converse is true. Anyway, I started that other thread and noted that is, as I see it, a set up by a lesser god.

Genesis 1:28; "Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth."

 

[muhammad_isa]

I reject the doctrine of purgatory....sorry!

Yes .. I come from a protestant background .. somewhere along the line between orthodox (Roman) Catholic and the modern Christian groups, the idea that there is 'a hell' has been discarded and somewhat frowned upon, and although many of us have to suffer in this life, they seem to think that they will get off 'scott-free' in the next.
Almighty God knows best

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Because God already created Adam and Eve with the purpose of living on Earth, but they started life in heaven. The proof for that in the Quraan is

Yes I also believe in predestination....this is not my argument....you clearly believe that Adam and Eve (or maybe just Adam) were in heaven before the disobeyed God (which is a subject that is widely debated); this is also my understanding. My Argument is, that in Islam it is taught that if you committed a sin which is "dhanb"- a fault or shortcoming, an inadvertence, a limitation to which the consequence is a sanction and not a punishment."dhanb" is distinguished from "ithm" which is wilful transgression or a malicious intention.--

https://books.google.com/books?id=focLrox-frUC&pg=PA431#v=onepage&q&f=false

Adam committed a sin which was "dhanb" because Adam was pure and sinless prior to his transgression he couldn't have had transgressed with malicious intentions....it was satan who deceived Adam and caused him to transgress......AND according to your understanding and mine, Adam was already living in heaven or a heaven like place but when he committed a sin which was "dhand" (which is a fault or shortcoming and not a sin committed with malicious intention), God punished Adam and forced Adam to fall from heaven (or the heaven like place). Meanwhile according to Islam Adam was forgiven and his sin was supposed to be sanctioned. So if Adam didn't commit a sin with malicious intentions and was forgiven, why was Adam punished and forced out of heaven or (heaven like place) when Islam teaches otherwise. So if Adam fell from from heaven or heaven like place for committing one sin which was "dhanb" how can we being full of sin and guilt make it into heaven or a heaven like place.....? And assuming Adam's physical form was the flesh that all of mankind has (according to Islam) why can't mankind enter heaven in our current state or physical form (flesh) if Adam supposedly started out his life living in heaven or a heaven like place....? (Contradictions....?)

 

[Acim]

Genesis 1:28; "Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth."

Based on the question I asked, I'll understand your answer as - nowhere in Chapter 2 did (Lord) God bless them.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Yes .. I come from a protestant background .. somewhere along the line between orthodox (Roman) Catholic and the modern Christian groups, the idea that there is 'a hell' has been discarded and somewhat frowned upon, and although many of us have to suffer in this life, they seem to think that they will get off 'scott-free' in the next.
Almighty God knows best

John 6:27
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
Ephesians 2:10
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
James 2:18-19
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Our intentions and actions are manifestations of faith.....Faith drives our actions and true faith is gain through spiritual wisdom....Spiritual wisdom is only gained by seeking it from the man upstairs (and I don't mean your neighbor lol)
So you'll know a tree by its fruits and only God knows the heart.
Getting away Scott free... I don't think so...maybe in this lifetime but not in the afterlife...everyone will be judged.

 

[C-Faith]

John 6:27
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
Ephesians 2:10
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
James 2:18-19
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Our intentions and actions are manifestations of faith.....Faith drives our actions and true faith is gain through spiritual wisdom....Spiritual wisdom is only gained by seeking it from the man upstairs (and I don't mean your neighbor lol)
So you'll know a tree by its fruits and only God knows the heart.
Getting away Scott free... I don't think so...maybe in this lifetime but not in the afterlife...everyone will be judged.

Sin is not inherited........ Ezekiel 18: 20

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Sin is not inherited........ Ezekiel 18: 20

in Christianity, Sin is a curse which causes man to wither away and die and causes the flesh to be vulnerable to the temptations of satan. As far as I know all human beings die whether they're good or bad..and all human beings will fall into temptation of the flesh (except for Jesus Christ in my belief)...the proof is in the pudding.
In the new testament (especially) when speaking of the righteous living and the wicked dying, it is referring to a Spiritual (eternal) life and a spiritual death (eternal punishment) because physically everyone dies.