Inherited sin: yes or no

[Sabour]

So if Adam fell from from heaven or heaven like place for committing one sin which was "dhanb" how can we being full of sin and guilt make it into heaven or a heaven like place.....?

Why do you keep on neglecting the fact that Allah has created us for the purpose of living on earth despite that Adam and Eve were put at paradise at first. What is the problem with that ?

Besides, being in heaven is different than being on earth. Totally different place, different nature, and different rules. What applies in heaven does not apply on earth.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Why do you keep on neglecting the fact that Allah has created us for the purpose of living on earth despite that Adam and Eve were put at paradise at first. What is the problem with that ?

Please my friend...try to understand my point and read my posts in their entirety so that I don't sound repetitive....first off...I don't neglect the fact that God has created us for a purpose but the ultimate purpose is not for us to live on earth in the condition that it's in now (corrupted)....yes that's part of the purpose but not the final purpose....this life is just temporary and a means to an end.....it's a test. The final purpose for those who are worthy, is to have eternal life....why do you think Adam and Eve were put on paradise first...and were tested?
My issue or point is the contradiction in the teachings of Islam....once again, I'll explain....(and please read this entire post)
My argument is, that in Islam it is taught that if you commit a sin which is "dhanb"-a fault or shortcoming, an inadvertence, a limitation, the consequence is a sanction and not a punishment."Dhanb" is distinguished from "ithm" which is wilful transgression or a malicious intention.--

https://books.google.com/books?id=focLrox-frUC&pg=PA431#v=onepage&q&f=false

Adam committed a sin which was "dhanb" because Adam was pure and sinless prior to his transgression he couldn't have had transgressed with malicious intentions....it was satan who deceived Adam and caused him to transgress......AND according to your understanding and mine, Adam was already living in heaven or a heaven like place but when he committed a sin which was "dhand" (which is a fault or shortcoming and not a sin committed with malicious intention), God punished Adam and forced Adam to fall from heaven (or the heaven like place). Meanwhile according to Islam Adam was forgiven and his sin was supposed to be sanctioned. So if Adam didn't commit a sin with malicious intentions and was forgiven, why was Adam punished and forced out of heaven or (heaven like place) when Islam teaches otherwise. So if Adam fell from heaven or heaven like place for committing one sin which was "dhanb" how can we being full of sin and guilt make it into heaven or a heaven like place.....? And assuming Adam's physical form was the flesh that all of mankind has (according to Islam) why can't mankind enter heaven in our current state or physical form (flesh) if Adam supposedly started out his life living in heaven or a heaven like place....? (Contradictions....?)

Besides, being in heaven is different than being on earth. Totally different place, different nature, and different rules. What applies in heaven does not apply on earth.

Exactly!!....yes this I agree with.....that means Adam and Eve had to be different too.

 

[Sabour]

Please my friend...try to understand my point and read my posts in their entirety so that I don't sound repetitive....first off...I don't neglect the fact that God has created us for a purpose but the ultimate purpose is not for us to live on earth in the condition that it's in now (corrupted)....yes that's part of the purpose but not the final purpose....this life is just temporary and a means to an end.....it's a test. The final purpose for those who are worthy, is to have eternal life....why do you think Adam and Eve were put on paradise first...and were tested?
My issue or point is the contradiction in the teachings of Islam....once again, I'll explain....(and please read this entire post)
My argument is, that in Islam it is taught that if you commit a sin which is "dhanb"-a fault or shortcoming, an inadvertence, a limitation, the consequence is a sanction and not a punishment."Dhanb" is distinguished from "ithm" which is wilful transgression or a malicious intention.--

https://books.google.com/books?id=focLrox-frUC&pg=PA431#v=onepage&q&f=false

Adam committed a sin which was "dhanb" because Adam was pure and sinless prior to his transgression he couldn't have had transgressed with malicious intentions....it was satan who deceived Adam and caused him to transgress......AND according to your understanding and mine, Adam was already living in heaven or a heaven like place but when he committed a sin which was "dhand" (which is a fault or shortcoming and not a sin committed with malicious intention), God punished Adam and forced Adam to fall from heaven (or the heaven like place). Meanwhile according to Islam Adam was forgiven and his sin was supposed to be sanctioned. So if Adam didn't commit a sin with malicious intentions and was forgiven, why was Adam punished and forced out of heaven or (heaven like place) when Islam teaches otherwise. So if Adam fell from heaven or heaven like place for committing one sin which was "dhanb" how can we being full of sin and guilt make it into heaven or a heaven like place.....? And assuming Adam's physical form was the flesh that all of mankind has (according to Islam) why can't mankind enter heaven in our current state or physical form (flesh) if Adam supposedly started out his life living in heaven or a heaven like place....? (Contradictions....?)

Exactly!!....yes this I agree with.....that means Adam and Eve had to be different too.

Sorry about this, but it seems we are stuck somewhere because you keep repeating the same point and I keep making the same point. I guess there is a difference in the views.

My point is that if the initial plan was for Adam and Eve to live on earth (which is), than I don't see removing them from paradise as a heavy punishment but rather a way in which things were done. God wanted us to know from that story that Satan is our enemy.

I suggest leaving this argument to that because that is what I have been seeing since the first reply. At some times I thought you were not reading my posts. Now I see where the difference is.

Second, when Adam and Eve where in paradise, I don't know what was there nature or form and i don't know if Islam talks about that.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

I suggest leaving this argument to that because that is what I have been seeing since the first reply. At some times I thought you were not reading my posts. Now I see where the difference is.

do you at least understand my point....I'm not asking you to agree but do you understand what I am trying to point out?

Second, when Adam and Eve where in paradise, I don't know what was there nature or form and i don't know if Islam talks about that.

This is a crucial detail in the Christian concept of sin.....you should try to find out what Islam teaches about this (if you want to of course). OR... maybe I just ask too many questions when it comes to God and the meaning of life

 

[Sabour]

do you at least understand my point....I'm not asking you to agree but do you understand what I am trying to point out?

I know that you are not asking that I would agree. Neither do I, I am just answering from the islamic perspective and according to my knowledge of that

Yes I think that I see your point. I also think that I answered that from the Islamic point of view.

This is a crucial detail in the Christian concept of sin.....you should try to find out what Islam teaches about this (if you want to of course). OR... maybe I just ask too many questions when it comes to God and the meaning of life

Asking questions is the best way to learn about things.

One thing I know is that when we go to heaven and living eternally, we will not sin or do anything wrong and we don't have needs. We are never hungry, thirsty, nervous, envy, sick, or need to go to the bathroom. For this reason we will be a totally different creation in heaven.

I dont think that was the state Adam and Eve.


20:120 Then Satan whispered to him; he said, "O Adam, shall I direct you to the tree of eternity and possession that will not deteriorate?"

Because of that, it is possible that the state of Adam and Eve in paradise may be the same of today. However I am not sure about that and I don't know if Islam teaches anything regarding this.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

I know that you are not asking that I would agree. Neither do I, I am just answering from the islamic perspective and according to my knowledge of that

Yes I think that I see your point. I also think that I answered that from the Islamic point of view.



Asking questions is the best way to learn about things.

One thing I know is that when we go to heaven and living eternally, we will not sin or do anything wrong and we don't have needs. We are never hungry, thirsty, nervous, envy, sick, or need to go to the bathroom. For this reason we will be a totally different creation in heaven.

I dont think that was the state Adam and Eve.


20:120 Then Satan whispered to him; he said, "O Adam, shall I direct you to the tree of eternity and possession that will not deteriorate?"

Because of that, it is possible that the state of Adam and Eve in paradise may be the same of today. However I am not sure about that and I don't know if Islam teaches anything regarding this.

Ok...thanx
May God bless you and continue to guide you towards the truth

 

[Sabour]

Ok...thanx
May God bless you and continue to guide you towards the truth

May God guide us all

 

[Tranquil Servant]

May God guide us all

Luke 11:3
Give us each day our daily bread.

May God feed our hunger with the type of sustenance that only he can provide and quench our thirst for spiritual wisdom.
Ameen!

 

[viole]

May God guide us all

Especially the ones who need a guide.

Ciao

- viole

 

[muhammad_isa]

...
God punished Adam and forced Adam to fall from heaven (or the heaven like place). Meanwhile according to Islam Adam was forgiven and his sin was supposed to be sanctioned. So if Adam didn't commit a sin with malicious intentions and was forgiven, why was Adam punished and forced out of heaven or (heaven like place) when Islam teaches otherwise. So if Adam fell from heaven or heaven like place for committing one sin which was "dhanb" how can we being full of sin and guilt make it into heaven or a heaven like place.....?

I already answered that .. so you are effectively asking why Almighty God did not "wipe the slate clean" and put them back in their original state ie. one of innocence
..but wouldn't the same thing just happened again?

 

[Thief]

My scripture shows no evidence of Adam awakening from the deep sleep that lord god caused upon him.

I find that highly relevant for the entire narrative that follows.

(Not sure why I mention it in this thread, but you served it up on a silver platter.)

Genesis 2 verse 21

 

[Tranquil Servant]

I already answered that .. so you are effectively asking why Almighty God did not "wipe the slate clean" and put them back in their original state ie. one of innocence
..but wouldn't the same thing just happened again?

No....I'm pointing out the contradiction in the Islamic teaching of sin when compared to the Islamic version of the story of Adam and Eve and how it relates to the concept of original sin....please read post #82.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No....I'm pointing out the contradiction in the Islamic teaching of sin when compared to the Islamic version of the story of Adam and Eve and how it relates to the concept of original sin....please read post #82.

In post 82 you said :
"So if Adam fell from heaven or heaven like place for committing one sin which was "dhanb" how can we being full of sin and guilt make it into heaven or a heaven like place.....? And assuming Adam's physical form was the flesh that all of mankind has (according to Islam) why can't mankind enter heaven in our current state or physical form (flesh) if Adam supposedly started out his life living in heaven or a heaven like place....? (Contradictions....?)"

Doesn't make much sense to me, I'm afraid..
Why do you seek to complicate things? It's very simple .. we are here on earth and need to remember Almighty God. We should do our best and be sincere to Him. We all have to die .. we are all in His hands.
So your argument changes that how?

 

[Tranquil Servant]

In post 82 you said :
"So if Adam fell from heaven or heaven like place for committing one sin which was "dhanb" how can we being full of sin and guilt make it into heaven or a heaven like place.....? And assuming Adam's physical form was the flesh that all of mankind has (according to Islam) why can't mankind enter heaven in our current state or physical form (flesh) if Adam supposedly started out his life living in heaven or a heaven like place....? (Contradictions....?)"

Yes and I also said this...
Please my friend...try to understand my point and read my posts in their entirety so that I don't sound repetitive....first off...I don't neglect the fact that God has created us for a purpose but the ultimate purpose is not for us to live on earth in the condition that it's in now (corrupted)....yes that's part of the purpose but not the final purpose....this life is just temporary and a means to an end.....it's a test. The final purpose for those who are worthy, is to have eternal life....why do you think Adam and Eve were put on paradise first...and were tested?
My issue or point is the contradiction in the teachings of Islam....once again, I'll explain....(and please read this entire post)
My argument is, that in Islam it is taught that if you commit a sin which is "dhanb"-a fault or shortcoming, an inadvertence, a limitation, the consequence is a sanction and not a punishment."Dhanb" is distinguished from "ithm" which is wilful transgression or a malicious intention.--

https://books.google.com/books?id=focLrox-frUC&pg=PA431#v=onepage&q&f=false

Adam committed a sin which was "dhanb" because Adam was pure and sinless prior to his transgression. He couldn't have had transgressed with malicious intentions....it was satan who deceived Adam and caused him to transgress......AND according to your understanding and mine, Adam was already living in heaven or a heaven like place but when he committed a sin which was "dhand" (which is a fault or shortcoming and not a sin committed with malicious intention), God punished Adam and forced Adam to fall from heaven (or the heaven like place). Meanwhile according to Islam Adam was forgiven and his sin was supposed to be sanctioned.

Doesn't make much sense to me, I'm afraid..
Why do you seek to complicate things? It's very simple .. we are here on earth and need to remember Almighty God. We should do our best and be sincere to Him. We all have to die .. we are all in His hands.
So your argument changes that how?

1 Corinthians 1:19
For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
John 12:40
“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them.”

Please don't be amongst those whose heart is hardened and eyes are blinded.....
As I mentioned before... this isn't complicated my brother....it is often said that the eyes are the windows to the soul but I say that the gateway to the soul is through an open mind...I'm not seeking to complicate things but rather I'm merely revealing an idea in which to ponder upon...I wish to resurface the truth from its depths....
I do believe in predestination and God's will....and my "argument" will not change God's will....I only want to understand his will so that I can do his will and have eternal life.

Besides, being in heaven is different than being on earth. Totally different place, different nature, and different rules. What applies in heaven does not apply on earth.

To which I responded.....

Exactly!!....yes this I agree with.....that means Adam and Eve had to be different too.

which is also part of my "argument." -Meaning our weak flesh is prone to sin and sin is the curse that caused our weakened state (the flesh) which will wither away and die.

 

[Thief]

I would lean to say .....sin is to live without God

Man was formed as a species on Day Six.....and turned loose on the earth
no names....no garden....no law....
to dominate all things....
No Sheppard in the lead

Adam is a correction to the animal what Man was
Man would have overrun the planet and it's resources....long before the spirit of Man could gel
the alteration of body and spirit performed in the garden was needful

the 'temptation' was a test.....and the first couple passed
Man would be forever more ....that creature curious to know....
even as death is pending

release into the environment was not a punishment
it just looks that way compared to living in a garden....with God

 

[muhammad_isa]

...
He couldn't have had transgressed with malicious intentions....it was satan who deceived Adam and caused him to transgress......AND according to your understanding and mine, Adam was already living in heaven or a heaven like place but when he committed a sin which was "dhand" (which is a fault or shortcoming and not a sin committed with malicious intention), God punished Adam and forced Adam to fall from heaven (or the heaven like place). Meanwhile according to Islam Adam was forgiven and his sin was supposed to be sanctioned.
...

So .. what are you saying?
Has Almighty God done something wrong? Of course not!
Do you fully understand why God sent us to earth? Do you need to know?

The thing is, we are here .. and Almighty God knew before He created Adam, peace be with him, that he would be. ie. God is obviously aware of our nature

 

[Tranquil Servant]

So .. what are you saying?
Has Almighty God done something wrong? Of course not!
Do you fully understand why God sent us to earth? Do you need to know?

No I'm not saying God has done anything wrong....I'm saying Islam is wrong and contradictory in this topic.
And yes I do fully understand why we're here on earth because the Christian teachings are clear and make perfect sense regarding this topic.
Also...not only do I need to know, everyone should feel the need to know...that is part of our purpose here on earth- to understand why we're here.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No I'm not saying God has done anything wrong....I'm saying Islam is wrong and contradictory in this topic.

I don't think so .. it's just the way you are portraying it .. or perceive it, perhaps

 

[Desert Snake]

Especially the ones who need a guide.

Ciao

- viole

There's no guarantee that you would know if you need a guide.

 

[Demonslayer]

There's no guarantee that you would know if you need a guide.

Not all who wander are lost.