Inherited sin: yes or no

[rusra02]

How was Adam morally perfect if he deliberately sinned?

He was created morally perfect but with free will, the ability to make moral choices, to choose obedience or disobedience. Sadly, he chose to disobey his Life-giver.

 

[rusra02]

My wife thinks Adam Levine is the perfect man.

Adam Noah Levine

 

[rusra02]

Right.




Non-sequitur. They still don't have a clue of what "wrong" or "bad" are at this point - they haven't eaten from the tree! All they know is that God didn't want them to do it. He didn't say why. Further, God wasn't once equated with morality during that whole story. How was Adam supposed to know?




Yes, they would die the same day they ate from the tree. They didn't. The serpent spoke the truth, God lied (again), and Adam & Eve got the rap for it. So just...




And for this they were punished? That would imply that God never meant for humans to be able to do anything on their own; and that we shouldn't really be allowed to make choices, nor decide for ourselves what is right or wrong. And that leads me back to my original question: "If Adam & Eve 'sinned' then in what way is the Biblical god a just one?"




And who gave God the right to decide what is "proper conduct"; especially considering his perception of justice essentially boils down to "might makes right"?

They came under the death sentence the day they sinned. As our Creator, I believe God has the right to direct what he has created. I also believe God's way of ruling is the best way, and man's efforts to rule are an abysmal failure, without exception.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

In regards to the Islamic belief of the Lord God being the all knowing, I too share in the belief that God does everything for a reason and sometimes he allows things to happen that we may not understand but my question is in regards to the concept of sin and how in the Islamic faith, sin is not inherited. In Christianity, a sin is a sin whether it is intentional or not but God is Merciful and his judgement is based on intentions. God may forgive you and have mercy on you based on your intention but a person will still have to face the consequences of their sin...ever heard of the saying the road to hell is paved with good intentions? (well this phrase can have 2 meanings) If a person that committed sins never had to suffer the consequences, they would never learn why a sin is a sin or rather right from wrong...it's just like how we teach children right from wrong by punishing them or letting them suffer the consequences. Also many people claim they have good intentions for intentionally doing the wrong thing but like I said before, God is ultimately the judge. This is why Adam and Eve were punished even though their sin wasn't intentional....And I say it wasn't intentional because had satan not deceive them, they would've only done and known what God taught them.
However, in Islam God does not judge you for that of which you do not know. As far as I know, in Islam a sin is a sin when committed with bad intentions so children are sinless which I get....what I don't get is if that's the case, then why were Adam and Eve considered transgressors (sinners) for something that was unknown to them...they didn't know that they would become transgressors for doing what they did. They were sinless, pure and had no knowledge of evil prior to being deceived by satan therfore they couldn't have sinned intentionally yet God punished and placed judgment upon them.
As a Christian, I believe God created Adam and Eve perfectly and immortal but when Adam and Eve sinned or disobeyed God (which is basically a sin) their bodies transform and our flesh was corrupted with the curse of sin and that's why Adam and Eve died and that's why everyone dies. That's also why we are susceptible and bound to sin. And that's why are bodies will no longer have this flesh we now know if we make it to heaven....
If we don't inherit sin then why do we live in a world of sin with flesh that is bound to sin and expire?
Christianity has valid answers and explanations to these questions but to my understanding, Islam doesn't...I'm still trying to understand
I apologize if my questions aren't clear

 

[Tranquil Servant]

They were not casted out from paradise.
They were living in the world.

http://sunnahonline.com/library/stories-of-the-prophets/288-story-of-adam-the
Allah commanded Adam to dwell in Paradise:

"O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise and eat both of you freely with pleasure and delight of things therein as wherever you will, but come not near this tree or you both will be of the dhalimin (wrong doers)."
Al-Qur'an 2:35
The location of this Paradise is unknown to us. TheQur'an did not reveal it, and the commentators had five different opinions. Some said that it was the Paradise of our refuge and that its place was heaven. Others regreted that statement because if it was the paradise of refuge Iblis would have been forbidden admission and disobedience would have been forbidden as well. Still others said that it was another paradise that was created by Allah for Adam and Eve. A fourth group said it was a Paradise on the earth located in a high place. Another group of commentators accept what was in the Qur'an without questioning where this Paradise was located. We agree with this last opinion as the lesson we learn from its location is immaterial compared to the lesson we learn from the events that took place there.

Adam and Eve were admitted to Paradise and there they lived the dream of all human beings. Allah permitted them to approach and enjoy everything except one tree, that might have been the Tree of Pain or the Tree of Knowledge. Allah forbade them they were give abode in Paradise......
"Adam knew he bade farewell to peace and he left Paradise. On earth he had to face conflict and struggle. No sooner had one ended than another began. He also had to toil to sustain himself. He had to protect himself with clothes and weapons and protect his wife and children from the wild beasts. Above all he had to struggle with the spirit of evil. Satan, the cause of his expulsion from Paradise, continued to beguile him and his children in an effort to have them thrown into the eternal hellfire. The battle between good and evil is continuous, but those who follow Allah's guidance and should fear nothing while those who disobey Allah and follow Iblis will be damned along with him."---from the Stories of the Prophets, Ibn Kathir

Sounds like they were in heaven to me

 

[DawudTalut]

.....
Allah commanded Adam to dwell in Paradise:

"O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise and eat both of you freely with pleasure and delight of things therein as wherever you will, but come not near this tree or you both will be of the dhalimin (wrong doers)."
Al-Qur'an 2:35
......
......

Peace be on you. As you your id says:
Tranquil Servant
Truth Seeker

So respectfully addressing to a truth seeker, we have to see meanings of the words in Arabic in the verse you mentioned, i.e.

1= Ahmadiyya-Muslim translation:
[2:36] And We said: ‘O Adam, dwell thou and thy wife in the garden, and eat therefrom plentifully wherever you will, but approach not this tree, lest you be of the wrongdoers.’

The verse is 2:35 in other system of counting . But it is same one under consideration.


2= Let us see some other translations:
Sahih International: And We said, "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat therefrom in [ease and] abundance from wherever you will. But do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers."

Pickthall: And We said: O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and eat ye freely (of the fruits) thereof where ye will; but come not nigh this tree lest ye become wrong-doers.

Yusuf Ali: We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

Shakir: And We said: O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the garden and eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish and do not approach this tree, for then you will be of the unjust.

Muhammad Sarwar: We told Adam to stay with his spouse (Eve) in the garden and enjoy the foods therein, but not to go near a certain tree lest he become one of the transgressors.

Mohsin Khan: And We said: "O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise and eat both of you freely with pleasure and delight of things therein as wherever you will, but come not near this tree or you both will be of the Zalimun (wrong-doers)."

Arberry: And We said, 'Adam, dwell thou, and thy wife, in the Garden, and eat thereof easefully where you desire; but draw not nigh this tree, lest you be evildoers.'


3=
الجنة = Al Jannah
The word comes from Janna, it has the connotation of being concealed, veiled.
The famous word Jinn is called Jinn because it is hidden.
The fetus is called جنين (janeen) as it is hidden.
A garden, a walled garden, any garden having trees, by which ground is concealed.
Page 145 @ https://www.alislam.org/quran/dictionary/dictionary_quran.pdf


Heaven / paradise is Jannah as it is hidden from eyes.

4= Please read under the heading Commentary about word garden.

https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=86&region=E1&CR=EN,E2

Hopefully, this Quran commentary will solve many of your questions throughout. You are welcome.

 

[Sabour]

what I don't get is if that's the case, then why were Adam and Eve considered transgressors (sinners) for something that was unknown to them

Please if you didn't previously read my response, read it. It is number #4 http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/inherited-sin-yes-or-no.187668/#post-4763730

Let me quote the verses again from the Quraan to answer you.

Chapter 7

20 But Satan whispered to them to make apparent to them that which was concealed from them of their private parts. He said, "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal."

21 And he swore [by Allah ] to them, "Indeed, I am to you from among the sincere advisors."

22 So he made them fall, through deception. And when they tasted of the tree, their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten together over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And their Lord called to them, "Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you that Satan is to you a clear enemy?"

23 They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers."


From these verses, we see where Adam and Eve went wrong. Allah told them not to come close to the tree and warned them from Satan. These are referred to by the parts highlighted in red.

As you read, in verse 21, Satan swore that he has good intentions. Scholars say that Adam and Eve were so pure they didn't think that someone would swear and be lying.

They were sinless, pure and had no knowledge of evil prior to being deceived by satan therfore they couldn't have sinned intentionally yet God punished and placed judgment upon them.

Yes Adam and Eve were descended from heaven but let us review.

1- God had planned for Adam and Eve to live on earth. God, the All Knowing, knew this will happen and God chose for us to begin life on earth in this way so we know that Satan is our enemy.

2:30
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

ًWe learn from this verse that Allah created us to live on the earth, and the angels knew somehow by God's permission that we "people" will cause corruption. " stealing, killing, not obeying God". This means that the story of Adam and Eve and satan is the way in which Allah wanted us to begin life on earth. So the question here would be why. Before answering let me provide you with more verses from the Quraan. Note that for the first two verses I used a different translation than the other verses because it giver clearer meaning. Note that I provided some comments for the scholars between some verses.

2- God taught Adam to ask for forgiveness and repent as you can see in the verses I highlighted in red

36. But Satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that [condition] in which they had been. And We said, "Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time."

37. Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.



There is nothing in Islam as an inherited sin, meaning we are sinners by nature, or that we have to pay for Adam's and Eve's or anybody's mistake. There is no concept that says that other people can get punished for our sins. There is no concept that says that someone had to pay the price that we are sinners.

We are born pure. A baby is pure. However it is satan, desires, and temptations that make us sin sometimes. But God has provided us with a way to fight all this and make it to heaven.

Chapter 2 verse 37
38. We said, "Go down from it, all of you. And when guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve.



I hope this would answer some of your questions. Please use the quotation feature because I didn't know whether you read my previous reply so I repeated most of what I said but in a different order.

All the best

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Truth Seeker

So respectfully addressing to a truth seeker, we have to see meanings of the words in Arabic in the verse you mentioned, i.e.

I appreciate you explaining and defining the Arabic text because I myself do not know Arabic...with that being said, I find contradictions in the fact that you show different translations to show where Adam and Eve were when they ate from the tree but then show the definition of the word....Al Jannah

الجنة = Al Jannah
The word comes from Janna, it has the connotation of being concealed, veiled.

And then....

Heaven / paradise is Jannah as it is hidden from eyes.

isn't this the place where they were?
Also...although I am Christian, I do have a good knowledge of Islam because my husband is a well read Muslim and taught many Khutbah's....so I do have a pretty clear understanding of Islamic perception and interpretation.
And as I posted before, the subject is widely debated....

The location of this Paradise is unknown to us. TheQur'an did not reveal it, and the commentators had five different opinions.

Also....

Yes Adam and Eve were descended from heaven but let us review.

See...different interpretations and different answers....but that's besides the point. The point is.... is that Adam and Eve were in a different state before they ate from the forbidden tree. They were pure and without sin; no malice, no knowledge of evil, no bad intentions...and now mankind CANNOT enter heaven or Paradise in our existing state. Why? Because our flesh is CURSED.

Also, if a baby or a child does something the parent has told them or taught them not to do, is it a sin? If it isn't then why isn't it? What is the different between a child who is pure and Adam and Eve who were pure?

We cannot and will not make it to heaven with just having faith and doing good deeds...because our flesh is condemned and is bound to sin and if God took Adam and Eve away from the state they were in because of just one sin, then how can we go back to that state (immortality) having committed all the sins we have and will continue to commit.....?

 

[DawudTalut]

@ Tranquil Servant
Peace be on you....Sorry if things were not clear.

1=By presenting various translations, I only meant people have also chosen the word 'graden' for 'al jannah' too.

2=Indeed 'al jannah' is garden / heaven....The reason provided being hidden.

3=My standing and main explanation has come from Ahmadiyya-Muslim resource [alislam.org]. The supporting reasons are given too why here al jannah is garden (not the actual paradise).

a--Adam was not first die-cast human. He was first superior person [after long creation+guided evolution]
b--He headed people already present. That is why he was Khalifah.
c--One intrinsic property of real heaven is:

[15:49] Fatigue shall not touch them there, nor shall they ever be ejected therefrom.

d--He and wife were living, they were commanded to avoid certain things, they erred, sought forgiveness, forgiven and lived further.

e-https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=86&region=E1&CR=EN,E2



4=

The point is.... is that Adam and Eve were in a different state before they ate from the forbidden tree. They were pure and without sin; no malice, no knowledge of evil, no bad intentions

a--They were common human, pure as any child is pure. But as any human errs they erred too.


b--"......Genesis I : 27 we read : "So God created man in his own image." And further on in 2 : 17 we read : "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it." These two quotations are contradictory....."
Page 33 @ https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Introduction-Study-Holy-Quran.pdf

c--In Quran, only a tree is mentioned and in post 46 image, it has been explained.
My personal understanding is that tree meant forbidden food. Some vegetation was not suitable there for eating; it created drug like effects.

d-- https://www.alislam.org/library/links/original_sin.html


5=

...and now mankind CANNOT enter heaven or Paradise in our existing state. Why? Because our flesh is CURSED.

No, we are children of Adam, as he rose in spirituality, we do too.
Nothing is cursed.

People invented all that cursed thing because:
Deuteronomy 21:22-23 “And if a man has committed a crime punishable by death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his body shall not remain all night on the tree, but you shall bury him the same day, for a hanged man is cursed by God. You shall not defile your land that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance” (ESV).

So to clean the things they explained Jesus (on whom be peace) took cross for sins of people.

Jesus (on whom be peace) was placed on cross but survived:

From Bible, Quran, Ancient Medical and Historical records including ancient Buddhist records, there is lot of evidence about journey of Jesus. Jesus is shown to have reached Afghanistan, and to have met the Jews who had settled there after deliverance from the bondage of Nebuchadnezzar. From Afghanistan Jesus went on to Kashmir, where other Israelite tribes had settled. There he made his home, and there in time he died as a successful person. He was called Prince Prophet there. His tomb has been found in Srinagar.
==== By Holy Founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam, Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835-1908), on whom be peace.
@ https://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/index.html




6=

Also, if a baby or a child does something the parent has told them or taught them not to do, is it a sin?

Parents would know child is little and weak understating, they shall keep teaching him. But it is surely not a sin. What we expect from a child? they keep standing and falling till they get mature.


7=

If it isn't then why isn't it?

It is not sin because child is developing and learning.


8=

What is the different between a child who is pure and Adam and Eve who were pure?

Child is pure as (s)he does not does mistake with awakened consciousness of right or wrong.
versus
Adam and eve were pure because they were not transgressors + they were pure because they bowed to God and repented.


9=

We cannot and will not make it to heaven with just having faith and doing good deeds

Grace of God + Right Faith + Good deeds are needed to get pleasure of God and heaven.


10=

..because our flesh is condemned

Sorry, Bible and Quran do not say so.
Mark 10:14-15
".........Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these"

"Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

===> It is telling Jesus (on whom peace) believed children are pure and believers should copy them.

Quran
[95:5] Surely, We have created man in the best make;
[95:6] Then, if he works iniquity, We reject him as the lowest of the low,
[95:7] Except those who believe and do good works; so for them is an unending reward.

Our flesh is made by God the Pure, we are not condemned for doing nothing!


11=

and is bound to sin

Sorry, we are not bound to sin.

We are born with raw pure faculties, by using true divine teaching we progress in moral and spirituality. otherwise we gravitate and fall.


12=

and if God took Adam and Eve away from the state they were in because of just one sin, then how can we go back to that state (immortality) having committed all the sins we have and will continue to commit.....?

Explained above.
They did not do any transgression.
They were normal, They erred and reformed.

All envoys of God [they are Adam of there time] come to remind people they have moved away from God and they are doing bad [acquired state], come back to goodness [the inborn state]. How they do it;

Three Methods of Reform
The first is that senseless savages should be taught the elementary social values pertaining to eating, drinking, marriage etc.

The second method of reform is that when a person has adopted elementary human ways, he may be taught the higher moral qualities and should be instructed to employ his faculties in their proper places and on their proper occasions.

The third method of reform is that those who have acquired high moral qualities should be given a taste of the draught of the love of and union with God. These are Methods which Nobel Quran has mentioned.

Detail @ https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf

==========

Good wishes.

 

[Sabour]

and now mankind CANNOT enter heaven or Paradise in our existing state. Why? Because our flesh is CURSED.

There is no such concept in Islam.

Also, if a baby or a child does something the parent has told them or taught them not to do, is it a sin? If it isn't then why isn't it? What is the different between a child who is pure and Adam and Eve who were pure?

A baby or a child isn't mature enough yet to know the right from wrong, hence he can't be held accountable for his actions until he reaches a certain age. Adam and Eve went against what God told them to do.

We cannot and will not make it to heaven with just having faith and doing good deeds

Which do you think would make more sense? Going to heave by believing in God and following his commandments and doing good deeds knowing that every person is accountable for his own actions or by believing that someone had already paid for your sins and God is mad at us because of what Adam and Eve did?

then how can we go back to that state (immortality) having committed all the sins we have and will continue to commit.....?

You are not held responsible for what Adam and Eve did, neither anyone of us. It is normal that some people sin and go off road. We all do it. But we can repent as long aw we are alive. Just like Adam repented.

2:37 Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.

The conditions for God to accept our repentance are

1- You should give up the sin

2- You should regret having done it

3- You should resolve never to go back to it.

4- You should give compensations to the damaged people if possible

Once your repentance is accepted, you are not punished for it. If your child did something wrong, you don't tell him I forgive you and than slap him in the face as a punishment. Forgiveness means there is no punishment and God does that because he is the All Merciful, the All Forgiving.

39:53 Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

 

[morphesium]

Peace and blessings to all. I started to ponder upon this subject after my husband (who is Muslim) and I watched a debate with the well known writer, public speaker and missionary Ahmed Hoosen Deedat. I am Christian and while I acknowledge Mr. Deedat had valid points and is very knowledgeable, I can't help but to ask more....questions that I haven't heard anyone ask like...
According to Islam...
1. Was Adam and Eve created in this flesh we have? (I know they were created from dust or clay) were they bound to die just as we are bound to die?
2. Will those who make it to paradise physically transform turning this flesh into a new glorious body?
3. And if so, why? If this flesh we have isn't tainted and sin isn't inherited then why would our bodies have to transform in order to enter heaven?

If all we need to enter heaven is to have done more good deeds than bad deeds, then why would or bodies need to transform. Especially if God made Adam and Eve in this flesh and according to the Quran they were living in the paradise before they were casted out which brings me to another question....
According to Islam....
If all we need to be in God's good grace is to have done more good deeds than bad ones, then why did God cast Adam and Eve out of the paradise after they were tricked by satan and God accepted their repentance. Why would he let us into paradise after all the sins we have committed if he casted Adam and Eve out after only one sin which was initiated by satan? Repentance is a good deed...isn't it? And I'm sure by the time they committed that one sin, Adam and Eve had already done way more good deeds. They obeyed God upto that point....right? And even when they sinned, it was because they were tricked by satan. Isn't God the most merciful? According to the scriptures, God knew satan would try to trick them and that's why God warned them so intensely. So why would God cast them out of the paradise and punish them so severely for something that he knew would happen; punish them so severely even after he accepted their repentance? It just sounds like God isn't that merciful. How can we make it into paradise? Adam and Eve were cast OUT for one sin so how will we make it INTO paradise with all the sins we have and will continue to commit intentionally and unintentionally?

It seems some of your thoughts doesn't agree with your religion. A lot of Why's and How's - Why? because its your rational mind along with your morale is the true gift of God.

Spoiler: Formation of a typical religion

No religion is devine and God has nothing to do with any religion. In the past, as humanity progressed into tribal societies and beyond, power always had to be vested with a few for proper administration. And it was easy for them to realize that they could guarantee their strong hold the most if they could take advantage of the fact that

1. The fear of the unknown is always much greater than fear of the known.
2. There is always the uncertainty of the future.
3. People had to suffer extreme hard ships for their survival and this demanded something strong to pacify them.

and nothing fits better than the God factor and hence the formation of a religion. This is something very easy to sell and makes the least oppression which they can easily suppress with some magical trickery and stories. Additionally, it has a very addictive nature and can propel itself for generations. Rituals and other holy practices were incorporated into it which not only strengthened the religious bondage, but also helped the religious heads to keep an eye on those who are stepping away from such practices. followers are easily made to believe that they get some form of divine protection.

so as different tribes formed, so were different stories and different gods. As societies merged or progressed or destroyed through war etc, so was religion.

In these societies, there were always evil practices; and there are always good and exceptional people who keep much advanced thoughts and they stand against the evils in the society. They take people or society from dark ages and enlighten them. Unfortunately just like ordinary people these great ones also die.(Religion has always been a good business - then and now). Some people seeing a business opportunity (and for power), sanctifies this person. So laws are made and are kept as such. Not (never) to be changed at all. Then existing scientific proofs are added to give it more credibility. Some magical/Godly stories are amended to it. Rituals and practices make it imprinted on those who practice it. This is how a typical non-tribal religion is formed - and 1,2, and 3 are still valid here.


So we have different religions, different stories, different gods, heaven and hell etc.

Even the simplest atom has tremendous information in it. If God is the creator of the whole universe, then obviously, it is God who instilled such information in each and every atoms that make up the universe. So if it is god who created you (us), that you are one of the gods glorious creations, then god has given his message to each one of us and we were born with it - it is inherent to us. Our sense of morality, our subconscious feeling to be/do good is our true god sent message. No other religion can claim this- for they all came to us externally after we were born through books or through other sources. This is the best way for god to give us freewill without interfering with us, The best way god can talk to us without showing himself. This is the biggest proof that your (our) religion is not god sent. One is closer to god without religion than with religion provided he listen to his moral.

In the brain, all information is passed through nerves as electrical signals. So, iff God wants to talk to us, he can simply raise the electric potentials here and there in the brain cells and the message would be conveyed to us and we even wont know his presence. (and It can be believed that our morals work exactly the same way!). why does he need holy books, stories, and prophets for this?

 

[Acim]

too many questions up front.....but....I believe....

God created Man as a species....Day six
male and female.....no names....no law....no garden

He stopped creating....Day Seven
all of creation is in place at that point

Chapter Two of the 'Christian' book is not a retelling of Chapter one.
many treat it as such

Chapter Two is a story of manipulation
Adam is a chosen son of God
he is brought into ideal living conditions.....to walk with God

Adam is the given a deep sleep (anesthesia)
a rib is removed(surgery)
the rib is increased to full stature (cloning)
to produce a female copy (genetic engineering)

Adam is the given his twin sister for a bride
Eve is not born of women....no navel

as for getting thrown out of paradise.....
Man was never intended to live forever in flesh
flesh is just a means of creating unique spirit

after the alteration the specimens were released into the environment
that would indeed be....banishment from ideal living conditions

do your scriptures show a similar sequence?

My scripture shows no evidence of Adam awakening from the deep sleep that lord god caused upon him.

I find that highly relevant for the entire narrative that follows.

(Not sure why I mention it in this thread, but you served it up on a silver platter.)

 

[Acim]

I do not believe Adam nor Eve repented. They were perfect and their sin was willful and deliberate. Though Eve believed the Devil's lies, the Bible reveals Adam did not. (1 Timothy 2:14) When confronted with their sin, both sought to deflect their blame to others. God passed the death sentence on both and they both eventually died. Adam passed on to his descendants sin and death according to the Scriptures. (Romans 5:12) IMO, the notion that God judges us on the basis of the number of good deeds versus sins we perform, is also not valid. (Ezekiel 18:21-32)

Lord God said:

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it. For in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.”

Genesis 2:17

Who's telling a lie again?

 

[psychoslice]

Of course we don't inherit sin, that's a childish belief, sin is a human concept, we use it against anything we don't like to happen, to ourselves or whatever.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

a--They were common human, pure as any child is pure. But as any human errs they erred too.

They were not common human....yes they were pure just as children are pure which is what I continue to make a point of...they were pure even though they were adults, they were like children mentally...pure because they knew no evil and no malice. It was only after they ate from the forbidden tree that they gained knowledge of evil...Satan being evil, inspired Eve and after Eve gained knowledge of evil she inspired Adam....they were naive yes but not evil nor were they malicious. They didn't disobey God with evil or malicious intentions...they were inspired to do so...
Yes they were humans like us in every way; especially in the fact that they had free will but they were different in the fact that although they were adults or physically mature, they were innocent, pure, and naive to evil. Also they were created to live forever...
Genesis 3:22-23
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Genesis 1:31
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Very good-- as in perfect, flawless, uncorupted, unperishable, not just good but very good.

So if children are not held accountable for their misbehavior and are considered pure for being naive to sin....why not Adam and Eve?.
Children who die are pure and inherit the Kingdom of heaven; even if they disobeyed their parents...right?
Because they do not (fully) understand malice or bad intentions but neither did Adam and Eve.....they didn't experience malice enough (or at all) to understand what it is....they were without sin...remember! Yet they were held accountable for their action....
Quran 2:36
But the Shaitan made them both fall from it, and caused them to depart from that (state) in which they were; and We said: Get forth, some of you being the enemies of others, and there is for you in the earth an abode and a provision for a time.

(This is my interpretation)
They were taken out of the perfect state in which they were in (without sin) and lived (the Paradise).

The wage of sin is death.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.

Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Genesis 6:3
3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with[a] humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

Over and over the Bible insists that the earth is cursed (with and because of sin) along with every living thing on it; after all- all living things came from the earth.

Genesis 3:14-22
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
20 Adam[c] named his wife Eve,[d] because she would become the mother of all the living.
21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Romans 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Isaiah 64:6
We are all infected and impure with sin. When we display our righteous deeds, they are nothing but filthy rags. Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall, and our sins sweep us away like the wind.

Revelation 22
Eden Restored
22 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse.

Isaiah 24:5-6
5 The earth is defiled by its people;
they have disobeyed the laws,
violated the statutes
and broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore a curse consumes the earth;
its people must bear their guilt.

b--"......Genesis I : 27 we read : "So God created man in his own image." And further on in 2 : 17 we read : "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it." These two quotations are contradictory....."

OK....So let's read the verses in their context and review them....
Genesis 1:26-28
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

Kinda like in Islam...notice God said he made man in his likeness "so that they may rule over all the the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
This is one of God's major attributes...he's the ultimate ruler of all.

Image- a physical likeness or representation of a person, animal, or thing, photographed, painted, sculptured, or otherwise made visible.
Likeness- a representation, picture, or image, especially aportrait: a representation, picture, or image, especially aportrait: to draw a good likeness of.
2.the state or fact of being like : 3. resemblance, similitude. 3. shape, form.

Meaning yes we were made in his likeness and yes we were even in a glorified pure state like him but we did not have all the attributes of God and all his knowledge. We had some but not all. Also, to say that God knows good and evil is to say that God not only is good and has good intentions but evil ones too which is kinda blasphemous in my view...God knows of evil because anything that goes against his will is considered evil but God doesn't know evil in the sense of experiencing it himself (or doing evil acts/ deeds). God hates evil and sin.
(Ok...I know what your gonna say)
In the Bible, it says....
Genesis 3:22-23
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

As I said before God knows (or has an awareness) of evil because anything that goes against his will and word is evil. He knows of evil intellectually but not experientially. God isn't evil...only good. However, Adam and Eve didn't know of evil...they only knew (and did) what God told them to do (good) up until the point they ate from the forbidden tree...But when they committed (experienced) the sinful act of disobeying God and gained awarness by eating from the forbidden tree, they gained the knowledge of good and evil. They gained a conscience or a consciousness of right and wrong.

In regards to the tree of life- the tree of life was open to them to eat from and as long as they ate from it, they would have eternal life but when they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God casted them out of Eden therfore also taking away the tree of life...hence taking them out of the state they were in (kinda like in Islam; except in Christianity their flesh was physically taken out of its pure state and became tainted) causing the flesh to now be perishable.

Sorry, we are not bound to sin.

I apologize for my wording...l meant to use bound in the context of being "compelled" or like saying "I'm taking the Manhattan bound train" (although I do believe we are bound to sin as in our flesh is tied to sin). I also meant to say that all of mankind (except jesus- that's another subject) has and will sin....And it is because of sin that all that lives, dies.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Please! my brothers and sisters...I kindly ask that we try to view things objectively and with an open mind. If we can't be impartial, then we become bias and neglect ourselves of possibly valuable knowledge....
I'm concerned that my questions and perceptions are profound to the point that they're difficult to understand but I'm trying to understand and exchange information to the best of my ability...
I understand that in Islam..God made Adam and Eve from the ground to be flesh and khalifas on the earth.
He commanded all the angels to bow down to Adam but Iblis (being a jinn and proud) refused and as a result was casted out of heaven..sometime during his descension he managed to deceive Adam and Eve and caused them to sin. God taught them and accepted their repentance but took them away from the (happy) state they were in and casted them out of the Paradise....
Quran 2:36
But the Shaitan made them both fall from it, and caused them to depart from that (state) in which they were; and We said: Get forth, some of you being the enemies of others, and there is for you in the earth an abode and a provision for a time.

Children are not held responsible for misbehavior because they are naive, inexperienced, and pure....
I understand all this (and I'm just making a long story short) and I have a clear understanding of the Christian interpretation too ....but (and I'm just trying to use common sense)
Death is bad, aging, sickness, hunger, and pain is bad...right?
Adam and Eve- were pure, without sin, naive to evil and malicious intentions.
God- is perfect and made everything in perfection including Adam and Eve.

Now I'm going to explain in the most simplest lamest terms I can....
If God made everything perfect, including Adam and Eve, wouldn't that mean that everything is uncorrupted and in its purest form....perfect and good. And death is bad... a form of corruption...it is ugly... decay is ugly... destruction is ugly...a synonym for corruption is rotten and synonyms for death are demise and downfall. I cannot associate death with the initial perfection of God's creation. Sin is bad....punishments are bad....death is bad......death is a punishment and punishments are a result of bad actions (or sin) but God created everything good and perfect. God gave Adam and Eve a test and created them with the free will to choose life or death.

In Islam, Adam and Eve were held accountable for their transgression even though they were pure, sinless,....naive and inexperienced in evil and malicious intentions; the way children are. Also, God accepted their repentance but punished them anyway by casting them out of the Paradise.

 

[DawudTalut]

..........
In Islam, Adam and Eve were held accountable for their transgression even though they were pure, sinless,....naive and inexperienced in evil and malicious intentions; the way children are. Also, God accepted their repentance but punished them anyway by casting them out of the Paradise.

Peace be on you.
1=Thanks for your all opinions.
2=You are free to think whatever you like.
3=As I humbly showed you in above posts 46 and 49 that there are proofs from Quran that Adam was not in Paradise.
And after accepting repentance, why punishment?......There was no punishment!
Quran:
[20:116] And verily, We had made a covenant with Adam beforehand, but he forgot, and We found in him no determination to disobey.

[20:117] And when We said to the angels, ‘Submit to Adam,’ and they all submitted. But Iblisdid not. He refused.

[20:118] Then We said, ‘O Adam, this is an enemy to thee, and to thy wife; so let him not drive you both out of the garden, lest thou come to grief.

Please think, if it was actual paradise what Satan was doing there?......So it is another proof that it was not paradise, it was garden.

Following are basic directives for early era of humanity (which unfortunately still are not fully filled for underdeveloped nations)

[20:119] ‘It is provided for thee that thou wilt not hunger therein, nor wilt thou be naked.

[20:120] ‘And that thou wilt not thirst therein, nor wilt thou be exposed to the sun.’

[20:121] But Satan whispered evil suggestions to him; he said, ‘O Adam, shall I lead thee to the tree of eternity and to a kingdom that never decays?’

[20:122] Then they both ate thereof, so that their shame became manifest to them, and they began to stick the leaves of the garden together over themselves. And Adam observed not the commandment of his Lord, so his life became miserable.

[20:123] Then his Lord chose him for His grace, and turned to him with mercy and guided him.

[20:124] He said, ‘Go forth, both of you, from here, some of you being enemies of others. And if there comes to you guidance from Me, then whoso will follow My guidance, he will not go astray, nor will he come to grief.

=======================================================================
So Adam repented, forgiven, and there was no punishment for him, instead he was exalted ----- according to Holy Quran.

 

[Smart_Guy]

The Quran does say "no soul takes the burden of another" (part of Quran 39:7 verse).

 

[DawudTalut]

The Quran does say "no soul takes the burden of another" (part of Quran 39:7 verse).

Peace be on you.
So obviously, Hazrat Esa (Jesus a.s.) was included; he did not take anyone's sin. He preached, prayed and struggled against sins.

 

[DawudTalut]

........... So, iff God wants to talk to us, he can simply raise the electric potentials here and there in the brain cells and the message would be conveyed to us and we even wont know his presence. (and It can be believed that our morals work exactly the same way!). why does he need holy books, stories, and prophets for this?

Peace be on you.
When people live a pious life with clean thoughts, their dreams [dream comes to everyone regardless of their moral state, it is seeded human faculty], then your theory takes on, God really begins to talk to them....

Every field has specialists.
Prophets are champions of their field of purity and spiritual knowledge. They teach people same. Their close followers get the same colours. Magnetic alignments take place. They too get words of God , of some level.

https://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_4_section_1.html