Instant win in debate against christianity

[MW0082]

Welcome to RF.

I don't know how many Christians you've known, but many of them believe the Bible itself is evidence. In fact, it's not just evidence, it's the best possible evidence.

In addition, many Christians believe that archaeology and history support the Bible.

Yeah, I know. It's crazy. But that's religion for you.

Yeah proving scriptures with scriptures makes a lot of sense to some people.

 

[Walkntune]

Trying to use logic instead of wisdom to interpret scriptures is your folly.
Wisdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I will need some specifics on Hindu Vedas and Dianetics, care to provide them?
Tell me where Hindu Vedas originated from and how Dianetics came about and i may be able to help you.

Funny... I've never heard anyone provide this for the Bible in anything approaching a satisfactory way. Does this mean I'm as justified in rejecting the Bible as you are in rejecting the Vedas?

 

[waitasec]

Trying to use logic instead of wisdom to interpret scriptures is your folly.
Wisdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

if you read the entire paragraph it says...
Wisdom often requires control of one's emotional reactions (the "passions") so that one's principles, reason and knowledge prevail to determine one's actions.

when people say god is "more than a feeling" they are not applying wisdom but applying their emotional reaction to doubt

~wiki

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Trying to use logic instead of wisdom to interpret scriptures is your folly.
Wisdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's not an "either-or" proposition. Illogical wisdom isn't really wisdom.

 

[Walkntune]

if you read the entire paragraph it says...
Wisdom often requires control of one's emotional reactions (the "passions") so that one's principles, reason and knowledge prevail to determine one's actions.

~wiki

This is true and if you ever had any experience with the divine you would understand that emotions lie and get in the way of truth.
God is not an emotional experience but is experienced through wisdom and intuition.
The reason Jesus spoke in parables was to bypass man's logic(conscious control) and reach into the depths of his heart.(intuition)

 

[waitasec]

This is true and if you ever had any experience with the divine you would understand that emotions lie and get in the way of truth.
God is not an emotional experience but is experienced through wisdom and intuition.
The reason Jesus spoke in parables was to bypass man's logic(conscious control) and reach into the depths of his heart.(intuition)

when people convert, isn't it always an emotional experience?

when i went to church people were on an emotional high or cried... quite often. pastors used emotion to control the congregation by
pleading for god's forgiveness and mercy...
now if you don't call that emotional, i don't know what is

 

[Walkntune]

when people convert, isn't it always an emotional experience?

when i went to church people were on an emotional high or cried... quite often. pastors used emotion to control the congregation by
pleading for god's forgiveness and mercy...
now if you don't call that emotional, i don't know what is

When people walk in truth they release emotions that are normally buried by those walking by ego.
If you just walk by logic you may or may not release your emotions depending on what you deem logical. This can be a cause for depression and mental illnesses.
You have to live by your intuitive connectedness(instincts) to nature and can't just walk by what seems logical in the mind.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

When people walk in truth they release emotions that are normally buried by those walking by ego.
If you just walk by logic you may or may not release your emotions depending on what you deem logical. This can be a cause for depression and mental illnesses.
You have to live by your intuitive connectedness(instincts) to nature and can't just walk by what seems logical in the mind.

Why would you think that living by your instincts and rejecting logic is better than living by logic?

 

[tomato1236]

You've probably thought of this before, known of this before but haven't really much payed attention to it but i believe this is the best statement to bring up when you are arguing against christianity


If it is backed by evidence, it is logical.

If it is not backed up by evidence, it is illogical.

The bible is not backed up by evidence so therefore it illogical.

Christians believe in the bible, thus they believe that if it is not backed up by evidence, it is logical.

Christians are illogical.

When i mean evidence, i mean a group of evidence that consists of actual archeological proof and other considerably firm evidence. NOT just evidence which is few and extremely subtle when supporting something in the bible.

I believe this is the best.
You can constantly argue on small details in the bible and support it with verses on topics that prove the christian lord hates homosexuals or he is evil and invented sin, but yet it all comes back to this.

Crap! This is irrefutable! I can't even say anything becase I am illogical!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You've probably thought of this before, known of this before but haven't really much payed attention to it but i believe this is the best statement to bring up when you are arguing against christianity


If it is backed by evidence, it is logical.

If it is not backed up by evidence, it is illogical.

The bible is not backed up by evidence so therefore it illogical.

Christians believe in the bible, thus they believe that if it is not backed up by evidence, it is logical.

Christians are illogical.

What evidence do you have to back up this argument?

 

[Beaudreaux]

Trying to use logic instead of wisdom to interpret scriptures is your folly.
Wisdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Got it. The Bible is not logical. Thank you for your candor.

I cannot bring myself to base my worldview and code of conduct on an illogical set of writings.

 

[Walkntune]

Got it. The Bible is not logical. Thank you for your candor.

I cannot bring myself to base my worldview and code of conduct on an illogical set of writings.

It least you understand it's YOUR world view.

 

[waitasec]

Trying to use logic instead of wisdom to interpret scriptures is your folly.
Wisdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When people walk in truth they release emotions that are normally buried by those walking by ego.
If you just walk by logic you may or may not release your emotions depending on what you deem logical. This can be a cause for depression and mental illnesses.
You have to live by your intuitive connectedness(instincts) to nature and can't just walk by what seems logical in the mind.

if you read the entire paragraph it says...
Wisdom often requires control of one's emotional reactions (the "passions") so that one's principles, reason and knowledge prevail to determine one's actions.


~wiki

emphasis by me..
when you walk by wisdom, according to the definition you gave via wiki, your emotions are set aside to not influence reason and knowledge.
so what are you saying?
wisdom requires controlled emotion
logic requires reasoning and wisdom...to understand one's actions.

 

[Walkntune]

emphasis by me..
when you walk by wisdom, according to the definition you gave via wiki, your emotions are set aside to not influence reason and knowledge.
so what are you saying?
wisdom requires controlled emotion
logic requires reasoning and wisdom...to understand one's actions.

Logic and intuition or wisdom are not related.
Logic is the use of conscious thought and wisdom and intuition come from awareness which can be blinded by conscious thoughts.

Here is something I read that helps explain it to me.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A Clever Mind v Wisdom
• Michael Levy[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Science has yet to define the meaning of wisdom in scientific terminology. I guess they require some type of clever or mathematical proof wisdom exists? Perhaps clever humans may not at this time be able to use their sophisticated minds to determine the meaning of wisdom, however a few clever people maybe able to understand the difference between a clever mind and a mind that can embody wisdom.

A clever mind possesses the ability to learn knowledge, skills, logic and reasoning, then to perform some or all of them in a brilliant, amazing manner, for good or evil deeds. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Two examples of devilish cleverness are 9-11 and Enron. Both were conduced by very clever minds for evil deeds One followed religious ideology doctrines to legitimize their acts for their followers. The other found greed and power was all they required, so they used their cleverness to rob millions of innocent people. Many other lesser known detrimental deeds are performed daily all around the world by cunning and conniving cleverness.

On the other side of the coin, two examples of a clever mind are a conjurer who can perform amazing tricks and a person who can invent a computer or software that can change every day life for most people on earth. Both clever deeds are initially performed for the benefit of humanity, however, a conjurer only entertains, whereas the application and use of computers can be used for evil deeds by a clever minded person lacking wisdom.

Wisdom is the capacity to distinguish between authentic meaning and erroneous meaning, which translates into the adaptiveness to live joyfully in a constantly changing world. Wisdom feeds purity of thought and cannot ever be used for evil intent, for if it is attempted to be used with a persons cleverness for evil or unsound deeds, it ceases to be wisdom. Let's explore two examples of how wisdom can be misused, one in religion the other in science ...

The three main modern religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam have been around for a few thousand years. Many wise sayings are quoted on a daily basis from the Bible and Koran. They give a guidance on living a joyful life while helping other people to enjoy their lives. However, in the process of worshiping a God that gives unconditional love, somehow clever thinkers managed to indoctrinate hatred and fear into Gods messages. Where is the wisdom in fearing a God that gives unconditioned love? Surely, unconditional love that anyone has to fear is a paradoxical oxymoron that only a clever mind can dream up and get billions of people to believe it!.

The results are plain to see and history can vouch for the slaughter of millions of innocent people in Gods name. So, what started out as wisdom, distorts itself and turns into clever doctrines that still today, humbug and deceives clever, professional, academic and business people, all who go to houses of worship, praying to a God that long ago supposedly killed first born babies to free his chosen people, he loved so much that he had to put them into slavery to teach them a lesson?

So, the question on religion is ... who captured the wisdom in all three religions and where is it hidden? Could clever minds have the answer or does it take wisdom itself to figure it out!

Science is helping people to overcome sickness/disease and it is a noble deed. Wisdom in science has been used in many ways to determine the cause of illness. Cleverness is then employed to find new medications to treat the symptoms. For instance, when then Panama Canal was being built many people died of Malaria until one wise mind proved still water breeds insects that carry Malaria. He used his wisdom by observing nature at work. Clever people then found a drug to aid the bodies recovery from Malaria. When wisdom is combined with cleverness humanity goes from strength to strength and all is well.

Many clever people's recreation time is spent at seemingly enjoying themselves by drinking alcohol and eating foods that will induce fatal illness sometime in the future... The drug companies take advantage of the clever peoples lack of wisdom and advertise drugs with harmful side effects on TV and radio to brainwash them into asking their doctors to prescribe the harmful drugs...Where is the wisdom?

The education system teaches students how to read, write and add-up sums. It does not teach them how to apply wisdom with their education because wisdom cannot be taught by clever people... It can only be directed by wise people who will admit they cannot teach it. Wisdom's characteristics can contain, balance, insights, intuition, experience, spirituality, logic, reason, knowledge, skills, science, religion, prudence, judgments, ethics, morals, virtues, feelings, sensibility, however it is not governed, restricted or limited by any of them individually. It thrives on truth in intelligent minds and many times is thwarted and isolated in oblivion by intellectually programed clever minds. It is said a wise tongue knows when to speak and when to stay silence. Unfortunately, for many clever people, their wisdom has a silent communication overwrought by a loud knowingness of sophisticated thought.

In essences wisdom has no academic or literal meaning, for like faith, a person knows it if they have it and if it is genuine wisdom it will steer them on a path of contented, absolute bliss, for every second they spend on earth. A person who receives wisdom in their thoughts can only guide by the example they set and the credibility of the life they live. By example, people with wisdom stand the test of time. Every baby on earth is born with wisdom dancing in every cell and molecule of their being. It can only be hidden by a clever mature mind that has forgotten the keys to wisdom's treasures .. La - De - Da!

© Michael Levy May 2007
Michael Levy. Professional Optimist[/FONT]

 

[waitasec]

Logic and intuition or wisdom are not related.
Logic is the use of conscious thought and wisdom and intuition come from awareness which can be blinded by conscious thoughts.

my intuitive nature tells me god does not exist...
my intuition tells me god is a figment of my imagination
my awareness would lead me to believe that logic and reasoning are the tools i use to form this belief. so i still don't understand.

if people are to use wisdom, by requiring "control of one's emotional reactions (the "passions") so that one's principles, reason and knowledge prevail to determine one's actions"
then why are converts so emotional? seems to me the convert relies on emotion rather than logic and reasoning to based their faith in something so unreasonable?

However, in the process of worshiping a God that gives unconditional love, somehow clever thinkers managed to indoctrinate hatred and fear into Gods messages.

wisdom tells me
gods love is not unconditional...

 

[JustWondering]

You have to live by your intuitive connectedness(instincts) to nature and can't just walk by what seems logical in the mind.

Isn't that how animals live? Your saying we should toss reason and logic out the window and behave like animals. I do not think that is very wise.

 

[Walkntune]

my intuitive nature tells me god does not exist...
my intuition tells me god is a figment of my imagination
my awareness would lead me to believe that logic and reasoning are the tools i use to form this belief. so i still don't understand.

if people are to use wisdom, by requiring "control of one's emotional reactions (the "passions") so that one's principles, reason and knowledge prevail to determine one's actions"
then why are converts so emotional? seems to me the convert relies on emotion rather than logic and reasoning to based their faith in something so unreasonable?

From the article above in case you didn't read it.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Wisdom's characteristics can contain, balance, insights, intuition, experience, spirituality, logic, reason, knowledge, skills, science, religion, prudence, judgments, ethics, morals, virtues, feelings, sensibility, however it is not governed, restricted or limited by any of them individually. It thrives on truth in intelligent minds and many times is thwarted and isolated in oblivion by intellectually programmed clever minds. [/FONT]

Maybe you have an intellectually programmed clever mind?

 

[Walkntune]

Isn't that how animals live? Your saying we should toss reason and logic out the window and behave like animals. I do not think that is very wise.

It is not wise to be like a deer that gets lost in thoughts of how good the grass is and looses instinctive awareness of potential danger.It is wise to use all awareness to know and be connected to reality.

 

[JustWondering]

From the article above in case you didn't read it.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Wisdom's characteristics can contain, balance, insights, intuition, experience, spirituality, logic, reason, knowledge, skills, science, religion, prudence, judgments, ethics, morals, virtues, feelings, sensibility, however it is not governed, restricted or limited by any of them individually. It thrives on truth in intelligent minds and many times is thwarted and isolated in oblivion by intellectually programmed clever minds. [/FONT]

Maybe you have an intellectually programmed clever mind?

Your arguement basically boils down to this:

Christianity = truth
Wisdom = mystical human trait used to recognize truth
Logic/intellect = human trait/practice that causes confusion

Therefore people should not rely on logic/intellect but wisdom because wisdom will lead them to the truth (christianity).