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Intelligent design, my version.

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My apologies. I should have been more specific

You were very specific. You stated quite clearly & specifically that "all species fit into specific niches". The problem wasn't a lack of specificity, but being wrong. For some reason you seem determined to paint my argument as relating to some kind of creationist bunk, but you have succeeded in calling absurd what is accepted in mainstream evolutionary biology while rather fundamentally mischaracterizing evolutionary theory (and me).

what I should have said is that it was absurd for you to infer from it what you were inferring.
Which was? I've been asserting you have mischaracterized me, but it could actually be that you simply don't understand what I am saying. Perhaps you can clear this up by describing what I have inferred.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat

You were very specific. You stated quite clearly & specifically that "all species fit into specific niches". The problem wasn't a lack of specificity, but being wrong.
But that is not wrong, it is just looking at niches in broader contexts. Again I am not contesting the science here. Nor do I see how I am wrong, in that the citations you gave I am in agreement with.
For some reason you seem determined to paint my argument as relating to some kind of creationist bunk, but you have succeeded in calling absurd what is accepted in mainstream evolutionary biology while rather fundamentally mischaracterizing evolutionary theory (and me).


Which was? I've been asserting you have mischaracterized me, but it could actually be that you simply don't understand what I am saying. Perhaps you can clear this up by describing what I have inferred.
Presumably a link with the topic - thestic evolution. You were linking the abundance of more generalised archaea with the argument for theistic evolution I hope - that is the topic of this thread after all.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
that is the topic of this thread after all.
I responded to something you stated:
Why are there so many varieties of plants? Well the theory of evolution explains that very well. Small variations acted upon by environmental feedback over 3.7 billion years or so would be expected to produce a vast diversity.
I don't know about "very well". Certainly it explains it and certainly it explains it better than any god in the gaps argument. But "vast diversity" means "vastly unfit for most environments" whereas most of the oldest species and the simplest species are the most abundant and from an evolutionary standpoint the "fittest". Variation is only explained well once it is assumed. Not that this lends any credence to any anti-evolutionary argument, simply something I have been working on as long as I have fitness functions (mostly as a curiosity).
You asked me to explain, and I did
This assumes that varying environments requires varying the fitness function. The most abundant species are those that are the oldest (i.e., they haven't varied) and comparatively simple...That's the norm for much of early life: general resistance to extremes, not variability. Evolutionary processes have ensured the death of most species, yet those that were around at the beginning and those like them remain and are the most abundant. I find that curious. Nothing more. Just curious.

You insisted on asserting that I was incorrect over and over while making one wrong claim after another. You could have simply dropped it at any time rather than assert that what I said was incorrect without basis and when you are in fact wrong. It was a minor point about a part of one of your posts that I had issue with for a reason I stated neither lent credence to the viewpoint you were arguing against nor was much more than something I find interesting, yet you insisted in post after post telling me about the ways in which things I didn't say make me wrong while failing to address or indicate you understood (or understand) what I did say. If you wish to drop it, I would be more than happy to. I've considered it a pointless tangent since I tried to say clearly what I meant and state clearly that it was merely a matter I found curious.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
I responded to something you stated:

You asked me to explain, and I did


You insisted on asserting that I was incorrect over and over while making one wrong claim after another. You could have simply dropped it at any time rather than assert that what I said was incorrect without basis and when you are in fact wrong. It was a minor point about a part of one of your posts that I had issue with for a reason I stated neither lent credence to the viewpoint you were arguing against nor was much more than something I find interesting, yet you insisted in post after post telling me about the ways in which things I didn't say make me wrong while failing to address or indicate you understood (or understand) what I did say. If you wish to drop it, I would be more than happy to. I've considered it a pointless tangent since I tried to say clearly what I meant and state clearly that it was merely a matter I found curious.
I'm honestly not sure at all what ypu are objecting to or why. I stand by that original statement, and do not see what you are taking issue with. I have asked several times to leave it there - happy new year, best to you and yours.
The topic is theistic evolution,
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Is not true, reference it.

The existence of the soul is asserted as a matter of faith throughout religion, not fact.

You continue repeating all your phony arguments, after they have been shown to be phony.
If you have faith in Christianity you must believe in a soul. From the "Christian" perspective it is a fact. I am getting real tired of your wordplay.

Define Opinion.
Define Fact.
Define faith.

Because none of those definitions that you are abiding by are making any sense to anyone else but you and I wonder if that tells you something.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
If you have faith in Christianity you must believe in a soul. From the "Christian" perspective it is a fact. I am getting real tired of your wordplay.

Define Opinion.
Define Fact.
Define faith.

Because none of those definitions that you are abiding by are making any sense to anyone else but you and I wonder if that tells you something.

Is nonsense, the definitions I use are intended to reflect the fundamental technical aspects of common knowledge about how choosing works. And they do reflect common knowledge, unlike you I can apply my definitions practically. I can for instance reason about how organisms choose, how predators have surprise in attack, and prey unpredictability in escape because of choosing.

If you can show the general ways how people talk about choosing in daily life is different from what I say it is, then you have some argument. But actually what you do is, you snub common knowledge in favor of science, while now you are pretending that you support the validity of common knowledge about choosing by arguing I use odd definitions.

It is very clear that you consider everything a matter of fact issue, when you even talk about "quantifying" beauty. That is absurd to most everybody, you are the odd one out.

The existence of God and the soul is not asserted as fact in Christianity, it is asserted as opinion. You provide no reference for it, it is nonsense. Overwhelmingly and very explicitly religion is focused on faith, which is a form of opinion.

An opinion about beauty or something, has fundamentally different characteristics from facts, and a fundamentally different way for arriving at the conclusion then the way facts are arrived at. Facts are forced by evidence resulting in a model of what is evidenced, a 1 to 1 copy, but opinions are chosen. Opinions are about what makes a decision turn out the way it does. For example love and hate. "Beauty" is obviously about love choosing, "ugly" is about hate choosing.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
My idea about choosing is standard religion and standard philosophy since forever.
And how would you determine which religion or philosophy is standard and which is not.

Religion change over time. And different people will change their religion to suit their culture or other social background.

New philosophy always keep popping up, taking new direction of how one think.

Because of these changes, saying that a person should follow a "standard", is no easy task, and because the way people think and feel, there is no reliable yardstick to measure or compare it to standard.

Take Islam today, for example, has changed. Some Muslims are peaceful, while others aren't. They both cite the Qur'an, and yet they have different interpretations. Attempting to use the Qur'an as a "standard" for how one live one's life, have proven that the Qur'an is a failure as a "standard".

This is because many of the verses aren't as clear-cut, as most Muslims think, and this cause different interpretations, as well as tensions or hostilities among themselves. Some would interpret some specific verses as literal, while others wouldn't take them so literally.

What I am trying to say, is this what some people might call standard is nothing more than illusions or mirages. The apparent "standard" is not standard at all, can be seen how Muslims have split into numbers of different sects, factions and schools of thoughts.

It is the same among Christians, and they have split in far greater varieties of different sects and offshoot, because their interpretations of their gospels or the whole NT, have changed.

The very idea that you think or believe that there is standard in religion or in philosophy, is nothing more than your ignorance and delusions.

If it is not standard then you must point to a religion which 1 does not accept the soul chooses 2. Does not regard the existence of the soul as a matter of opinion.

For example if you find religion in which the existence of the soul is regarded as a matter of fact, then that would disprove the assertion that the idea about choosing same as mine is pretty much universally accepted in religion.

For example there is religion in which the weight of the soul is measured to be 21 grams. That denies the existence of the soul is a matter of opinion, because it can be measured. But such beliefs are exception and generally not accepted in official doctrines.

Even in ancient Egypt they broadly followed the concept of the soul, which soul is judged. It is very universal.

You got to be kidding.

Many religions and spiritualities believe in the "soul", and they all have different take "soul" and what a "soul" is or isn't, so they don't agree with one other.

The Abrahamic religions weren't the first to believe in souls, and they don't agree with one another about the soul, because none of the scriptures (whether it be Tanakh, Bible or Qur'an) or clearly define what the soul is. So how can any of the 3 religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) be consider "standard"?

And you have mentioned ancient Egyptian religion. Good. But even there, the Egyptians don't always agree among themselves, because they don't all teach the same things, because different cities have different pantheon of deities. The Egyptians called these soul - "ba". There were other spirit components, like "ka" and "ankh", relating to man. Ka is similar to the soul, Ba; where ba only exist in the man, while he is alive, the Ka remain in the dead body, while the ankh is the released spirit, that will go to the afterlife - the Field of Reeds.

The Egyptian religion is one among a few very early organised religion that do teach or believe about soul/spirit and about the afterlife. Egyptian religions certainly predate all abrahamic religions, but they weren't first.

And further east, like India and China, they have developed independently religions about gods, spirits/soul and afterlife. Are Hinduism and Taoism have their own sets of belief about the soul, but would you call either one to be "standard". I don't think you would, considering you're a Muslim. And there is Buddhism, which believe in soul and spirits, and yet they don't all believe in the existence of deity or deities.

But older than all these religions, in at least Neolithic period, and perhaps even in the upper Palaeolithic period, were animism and shamanism. They believe in spirits existing in all matters, not just in humans, in animals, in plants, waters (springs, rivers, lake, and even in rain), the sun and moon, etc.

There are no scriptures there in animism, and no dogma and creed, but their belief in soul and spirits, are without a doubt, exist during those time, but would you consider them "standard"?

And btw, the whole 21 grams of soul, is nothing more than speculation is laughable. Where on earth did you get this absurd idea that the soul can be measure in grams?
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Is nonsense, the definitions I use are intended to reflect the fundamental technical aspects of common knowledge about how choosing works. And they do reflect common knowledge, unlike you I can apply my definitions practically. I can for instance reason about how organisms choose, how predators have surprise in attack, and prey unpredictability in escape because of choosing.

If you can show the general ways how people talk about choosing in daily life is different from what I say it is, then you have some argument. But actually what you do is, you snub common knowledge in favor of science, while now you are pretending that you support the validity of common knowledge about choosing by arguing I use odd definitions.

It is very clear that you consider everything a matter of fact issue, when you even talk about "quantifying" beauty. That is absurd to most everybody, you are the odd one out.

The existence of God and the soul is not asserted as fact in Christianity, it is asserted as opinion. You provide no reference for it, it is nonsense. Overwhelmingly and very explicitly religion is focused on faith, which is a form of opinion.

An opinion about beauty or something, has fundamentally different characteristics from facts, and a fundamentally different way for arriving at the conclusion then the way facts are arrived at. Facts are forced by evidence resulting in a model of what is evidenced, a 1 to 1 copy, but opinions are chosen. Opinions are about what makes a decision turn out the way it does. For example love and hate. "Beauty" is obviously about love choosing, "ugly" is about hate choosing.
Well that is a lot of words but not a lot of substance.

If I am the odd one out or not doesn't actually weigh in on if I am right or wrong.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
Well that is a lot of words but not a lot of substance.

If I am the odd one out or not doesn't actually weigh in on if I am right or wrong.

But you just used that argument against me that because I am the odd one out therefore i am wrong. All your arguments are phony, and you use them again after they have been shown to be phony.

How to discuss anything with somebody who is perfidious as you? Can't you at least be honest enough to accurately reflect what i am saying?

I will phrase it more formally, if a decision can turn out X or Y, and X is chosen instead of Y, then the answer to the question; what is it that makes the decision turn out the way it does?, is a decision between P and Q. When P is chosen, then it means the opinion is that P made the decision turn out X instead of Y.

That is the formal logic of how opinions about what is good, loving and beautiful are arrived at. Facts are arrived at differently, by evidence forcing to a conclusion resulting in a model of what is evidenced.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
And how would you determine which religion or philosophy is standard and which is not.

Religion change over time. And different people will change their religion to suit their culture or other social background.

New philosophy always keep popping up, taking new direction of how one think.

Because of these changes, saying that a person should follow a "standard", is no easy task, and because the way people think and feel, there is no reliable yardstick to measure or compare it to standard.

Take Islam today, for example, has changed. Some Muslims are peaceful, while others aren't. They both cite the Qur'an, and yet they have different interpretations. Attempting to use the Qur'an as a "standard" for how one live one's life, have proven that the Qur'an is a failure as a "standard".

This is because many of the verses aren't as clear-cut, as most Muslims think, and this cause different interpretations, as well as tensions or hostilities among themselves. Some would interpret some specific verses as literal, while others wouldn't take them so literally.

What I am trying to say, is this what some people might call standard is nothing more than illusions or mirages. The apparent "standard" is not standard at all, can be seen how Muslims have split into numbers of different sects, factions and schools of thoughts.

It is the same among Christians, and they have split in far greater varieties of different sects and offshoot, because their interpretations of their gospels or the whole NT, have changed.

The very idea that you think or believe that there is standard in religion or in philosophy, is nothing more than your ignorance and delusions.



You got to be kidding.

Many religions and spiritualities believe in the "soul", and they all have different take "soul" and what a "soul" is or isn't, so they don't agree with one other.

The Abrahamic religions weren't the first to believe in souls, and they don't agree with one another about the soul, because none of the scriptures (whether it be Tanakh, Bible or Qur'an) or clearly define what the soul is. So how can any of the 3 religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) be consider "standard"?

And you have mentioned ancient Egyptian religion. Good. But even there, the Egyptians don't always agree among themselves, because they don't all teach the same things, because different cities have different pantheon of deities. The Egyptians called these soul - "ba". There were other spirit components, like "ka" and "ankh", relating to man. Ka is similar to the soul, Ba; where ba only exist in the man, while he is alive, the Ka remain in the dead body, while the ankh is the released spirit, that will go to the afterlife - the Field of Reeds.

The Egyptian religion is one among a few very early organised religion that do teach or believe about soul/spirit and about the afterlife. Egyptian religions certainly predate all abrahamic religions, but they weren't first.

And further east, like India and China, they have developed independently religions about gods, spirits/soul and afterlife. Are Hinduism and Taoism have their own sets of belief about the soul, but would you call either one to be "standard". I don't think you would, considering you're a Muslim. And there is Buddhism, which believe in soul and spirits, and yet they don't all believe in the existence of deity or deities.

But older than all these religions, in at least Neolithic period, and perhaps even in the upper Palaeolithic period, were animism and shamanism. They believe in spirits existing in all matters, not just in humans, in animals, in plants, waters (springs, rivers, lake, and even in rain), the sun and moon, etc.

There are no scriptures there in animism, and no dogma and creed, but their belief in soul and spirits, are without a doubt, exist during those time, but would you consider them "standard"?

And btw, the whole 21 grams of soul, is nothing more than speculation is laughable. Where on earth did you get this absurd idea that the soul can be measure in grams?

You are very bad at reading, coupled wit enormous arrogance about being right. I did not say I believe the soul is 21 grams, I only referred to this belief as an example of what runs counter to my beliefs.

All your talk about religion is nonsense, because you do not understand subjectivity. Do you imagine subjectivity works fundamentally different for each human being? Or is there a standard basic similarity in how subjectivity works? Obviously subjectivity works with choosing, which is why we see differences amongst religions, because each chooses different things. But the sameness is that they all choose, and all religion is genetally about what it is that makes decisions turn out the way they do.

It is equally logically valid to say a painting is beaitiful, or to say a painting is ugly. Similarly there is no generally no religion which is more valid as another, it is simply choosing different things.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
But you just used that argument against me that because I am the odd one out therefore i am wrong. All your arguments are phony, and you use them again after they have been shown to be phony.
I didn't say anything about you being right or wrong. Its all about you trying to tack on ill-described words in ways that are not commonly used. You still havent defined "love and hate" as phenomenon, forces, qualities ect. They are simply what they are in your argument. The only time you started to make sense so I could even begin to have a meaningful discussion is when you said "soul" and the "soul" chooses action rather than the material.

You keep saying "phony phony phony phony phony" and before you kept saying all other kinds of name calling. You aren't interested in a discussion and you aren't interested in making your case clearly. So is english your first language? Because this has been a language barrier between us for the most part (though ideological differences are obvious as well) and I"m trying to figure out why.

But if you are talking about a soul that is different than our own brains and is in some way intangible or not of the material then you could have said that. You now reflect 'Love" "hate" good bad ect through this lense which I feel is unsubstantiated.
How to discuss anything with somebody who is perfidious as you? Can't you at least be honest enough to accurately reflect what i am saying?
You can start by accurately saying it.
I will phrase it more formally, if a decision can turn out X or Y, and X is chosen instead of Y, then the answer to the question; what is it that makes the decision turn out the way it does?, is a decision between P and Q. When P is chosen, then it means the opinion is that P made the decision turn out X instead of Y.

That is the formal logic of how opinions about what is good, loving and beautiful are arrived at. Facts are arrived at differently, by evidence forcing to a conclusion resulting in a model of what is evidenced.
Now this I can discuss.

You have choice X and Y. Lets say person #1 chooses "X". Why did they choose that? This is where the mystery begins. This is why "Free will" isn't as obvious as all that. What if they were always going to choose "x"? What if it was pre-determined and it just appears to be a "choice" because the factors that determine it are so complex that we don't see them? Or what if there really are "chances" and "choices"? Where do they come form? How do they form?

We know that there are an infinite amount of choices at any given moment but are we actually making those choices? You think yes but how do you know? What evidence do you have to back that up? ITs not "obvious". If it is to you then its a misconception and your stuck in a worldview that is simplified but wrong.

My personal opinion is that we might have free will since all of these "choices" appear to be possibilities. In physics it is called "potential". There are several different potential realities in the future based on our actions and is it just pure luck that we choose any of them?
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
I didn't say anything about you being right or wrong. Its all about you trying to tack on ill-described words in ways that are not commonly used. You still havent defined "love and hate" as phenomenon, forces, qualities ect. They are simply what they are in your argument. The only time you started to make sense so I could even begin to have a meaningful discussion is when you said "soul" and the "soul" chooses action rather than the material.

You keep saying "phony phony phony phony phony" and before you kept saying all other kinds of name calling. You aren't interested in a discussion and you aren't interested in making your case clearly. So is english your first language? Because this has been a language barrier between us for the most part (though ideological differences are obvious as well) and I"m trying to figure out why.

But if you are talking about a soul that is different than our own brains and is in some way intangible or not of the material then you could have said that. You now reflect 'Love" "hate" good bad ect through this lense which I feel is unsubstantiated.

You can start by accurately saying it.

Now this I can discuss.

You have choice X and Y. Lets say person #1 chooses "X". Why did they choose that? This is where the mystery begins. This is why "Free will" isn't as obvious as all that. What if they were always going to choose "x"? What if it was pre-determined and it just appears to be a "choice" because the factors that determine it are so complex that we don't see them? Or what if there really are "chances" and "choices"? Where do they come form? How do they form?

We know that there are an infinite amount of choices at any given moment but are we actually making those choices? You think yes but how do you know? What evidence do you have to back that up? ITs not "obvious". If it is to you then its a misconception and your stuck in a worldview that is simplified but wrong.

My personal opinion is that we might have free will since all of these "choices" appear to be possibilities. In physics it is called "potential". There are several different potential realities in the future based on our actions and is it just pure luck that we choose any of them?

You completely left out the p and q part. There is no problem with my English, the problem is your stubborn refusal to accurately reflect what I say. Then you can start to reason about it, when you have correctly identified what my argumentation actually is.

And every time I said your argument is phony I had a reason for it. Your current argument that I don't use English in a normal way is also a phony non argument.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
You completely left out the p and q part. There is no problem with my English, the problem is your stubborn refusal to accurately reflect what I say. Then you can start to reason about it, when you have correctly identified what my argumentation actually is.

And every time I said your argument is phony I had a reason for it. Your current argument that I don't use English in a normal way is also a phony non argument.
IT is your verbiage yes. That has been my difficulty with you. Its a difficulty I do not have with others. And its not its level of complicatoin.

But even if you add in the P and Q we have the same problem. Why do you have P or Q? What caused you to have that opinion? You've added a step to a staircase that doesn't go anywhere.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
IT is your verbiage yes. That has been my difficulty with you. Its a difficulty I do not have with others. And its not its level of complicatoin.

But even if you add in the P and Q we have the same problem. Why do you have P or Q? What caused you to have that opinion? You've added a step to a staircase that doesn't go anywhere.

1 the concept functions without inconsistencies this way
2 it accurately reflects reality, as in predators choosing have surprise in attack
3 it solves the issue of subjectivity, it validates subjectivity

You are not considering reasonably, putting the different concepts of choosing side by side and see which one works best. You have one phony argument after another, and the end result is a concept of choosing that is dysfunctional.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
1 the concept functions without inconsistencies this way
2 it accurately reflects reality, as in predators choosing have surprise in attack
3 it solves the issue of subjectivity, it validates subjectivity

You are not considering reasonably, putting the different concepts of choosing side by side and see which one works best. You have one phony argument after another, and the end result is a concept of choosing that is dysfunctional.
1)It is not falsifiable.
2) it is not verifiable
3) It could just as easily be any other answer.

If that is your personal belief then fine. But that doesn't make it the best choice or an academic one.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
1)It is not falsifiable.
2) it is not verifiable
3) It could just as easily be any other answer.

If that is your personal belief then fine. But that doesn't make it the best choice or an academic one.

1 now you side with nazi's communists atheists and the like who all reject freedom and subjectivity
2 there is lots of evidence for choosing
3 the knowledge applies practically, like for law and democracy
4 you are not reasoning....
 
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