Intelligent design, my version.

[Monk Of Reason]

1 now you side with nazi's communists atheists and the like who all reject freedom and subjectivity
2 there is lots of evidence for choosing
3 the knowledge applies practically, like for law and democracy
4 you are not reasoning....

1) have nothing in common with Nazi's or communist in this argument. And btw NAZI's were NOT communist nor were they atheists usually. It has never been a communist, atheist or Nazi quality to reject freedom and subjectivity.

2) Could you give some examples? Of exactly how?

3) Yes. And in pragmatic views of democracy and law we need to keep people accountable. But that is for pragmatic reasons.

4) I'm trying. Are you trying to be reasonable with my position?

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Ah ... add 4 unsupported claims to the tally.

More of your authoritarian huffing and puffing. It is an unsupported claim that I do not support my claims.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

1) have nothing in common with Nazi's or communist in this argument. And btw NAZI's were NOT communist nor were they atheists usually. It has never been a communist, atheist or Nazi quality to reject freedom and subjectivity.

2) Could you give some examples? Of exactly how?

3) Yes. And in pragmatic views of democracy and law we need to keep people accountable. But that is for pragmatic reasons.

4) I'm trying. Are you trying to be reasonable with my position?

Obviously what you have in common with nazi's, communists, atheists and evolutionists, is that you reject freedom and subjectivity.

I have basically most of the same sort of evidence, and amount of evidence for choosing as you.

Indeed knowledge about choosing is practical, so there is no reason to reject it.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Obviously what you have in common with nazi's, communists, atheists and evolutionists, is that you reject freedom and subjectivity.

I have basically most of the same sort of evidence, and amount of evidence for choosing as you.

Indeed knowledge about choosing is practical, so there is no reason to reject it.

Subjectivity exists and I don't ever recall disregarding that. And I also don't ever remember actively rejecting freedom. And Communists, Nazi's, atheists and evolutionis usually believe in freedom but probably not the same as you. Actually communists and Nazi's may share your views. I am not sure. Its probably a personal thing.

But you keep trying to paint a wide brush as if anyone not agreeing with you 100% is a Nazi and communist. Its not correct and it doesn't make for fruitful conversation.

I haven't seen the evidence I have seen examples devoid of evidence for your case that could just as easily be the case for any other answer including no free will.

Its practical in daily usage but it doesn't make it true.

 

[gnostic]

You are very bad at reading, coupled wit enormous arrogance about being right.

And you don't?

The irony is that you have accuse me of being arrogant and being a mr-know-it-all, but you don't even realize that you are doing exactly what you have accuse me of.

You have basically told just about every single who had posted that disagree with you in this thread (as well as in the other thread that you had started- Should creationism be taught as the foundation of science?) that they are wrong, and you are wrong.

You even went so far as accusing them of being a Nazi or a Communist (or both), especially all who accept evolution as valid scientific theory.

I don't go around accusing Muslim members here of being terrorists or the Talibans, just because some might not accept evolution.

You have also accuse everyone being atheists if they disagree with you or they accept evolution.

A) What you are doing (about the Nazi or Communist comments) is offensive.
B) Evolution is a biological matter that have nothing to do political agendas or government regimes, like Nazi or communism.
C) Evolution has nothing to do with atheism, because atheism has nothing to do with ANY and ALL science. Atheism is only related to the question of THEISM - which is the existence of a deity or deities.
​

You keep talking about subjects that have nothing to do with evolution or with creationism, like Nazi, communism, and atheism, I keep pointing out you what is evolution and what isn't evolution, but you refused to listen to me - or to anyone else for that matter. That's arrogant.

I wouldn't call you a mr-know-it-all, because so far in this thread I have not encounter any comment or claim made by you to be "knowledgable", "intelligent", "well-informed" or "logical".

You are a complete embarrassment to Islam and to all intelligent Muslims.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

And you don't?

The irony is that you have accuse me of being arrogant and being a mr-know-it-all, but you don't even realize that you are doing exactly what you have accuse me of.

You have basically told just about every single who had posted that disagree with you in this thread (as well as in the other thread that you had started- Should creationism be taught as the foundation of science?) that they are wrong, and you are wrong.

You even went so far as accusing them of being a Nazi or a Communist (or both), especially all who accept evolution as valid scientific theory.

I don't go around accusing Muslim members here of being terrorists or the Talibans, just because some might not accept evolution.

You have also accuse everyone being atheists if they disagree with you or they accept evolution.

A) What you are doing (about the Nazi or Communist comments) is offensive.
B) Evolution is a biological matter that have nothing to do political agendas or government regimes, like Nazi or communism.
C) Evolution has nothing to do with atheism, because atheism has nothing to do with ANY and ALL science. Atheism is only related to the question of THEISM - which is the existence of a deity or deities.
​

You keep talking about subjects that have nothing to do with evolution or with creationism, like Nazi, communism, and atheism, I keep pointing out you what is evolution and what isn't evolution, but you refused to listen to me - or to anyone else for that matter. That's arrogant.

I wouldn't call you a mr-know-it-all, because so far in this thread I have not encounter any comment or claim made by you to be "knowledgable", "intelligent", "well-informed" or "logical".

You are a complete embarrassment to Islam and to all intelligent Muslims.

I deal with reality, and in practical reality evolutionists, atheists, nazi's, communists all reject freedom and subjectivity. You for instance reject freedom and subjectivity, in your activism for evolution theory.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Subjectivity exists and I don't ever recall disregarding that. And I also don't ever remember actively rejecting freedom. And Communists, Nazi's, atheists and evolutionis usually believe in freedom but probably not the same as you. Actually communists and Nazi's may share your views. I am not sure. Its probably a personal thing.

But you keep trying to paint a wide brush as if anyone not agreeing with you 100% is a Nazi and communist. Its not correct and it doesn't make for fruitful conversation.

I haven't seen the evidence I have seen examples devoid of evidence for your case that could just as easily be the case for any other answer including no free will.

Its practical in daily usage but it doesn't make it true.

I do not say 100 percent nazi, and imo atheists are worse than nazi's. One just has to interpret reasonably. It is reasonably true that atheists evolutionists communists and nazi's reject freedom and subjectivity.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I do not say 100 percent nazi, and imo atheists are worse than nazi's. One just has to interpret reasonably. It is reasonably true that atheists evolutionists communists and nazi's reject freedom and subjectivity.

I honestly cannot respect your opinion on that. Atheists I find can be far more moral than many religious individuals. Far less harmful to the world and almost every major advancement in social statuses for individuals come from secularization. So this tells me that your opinion of atheists, free will and the rest of it is nothing but bigoted bias.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

I honestly cannot respect your opinion on that. Atheists I find can be far more moral than many religious individuals. Far less harmful to the world and almost every major advancement in social statuses for individuals come from secularization. So this tells me that your opinion of atheists, free will and the rest of it is nothing but bigoted bias.

Society is complex. But truth is there are no major problems when all people accept subjectivity is valid.

 

[gnostic]

I deal with reality, and in practical reality evolutionists, atheists, nazi's, communists all reject freedom and subjectivity. You for instance reject freedom and subjectivity, in your activism for evolution theory.

I have not rejected freedom or subjectivity, I just find it has nothing to do with any science.

And I find it terribly offensive that you would even call me a communist, especially when I have a cousin back in Beijing who I have not heard from since 1989. I don't know if he is dead or in prison.

I have never supported communism, nor the nazi, and that you even use this falsely, at me, is offensive.

I would like an apology, but I don't think I will get it from someone who like to make generalized false allegation about people. If you don't apologize, then do me a favour of never replying to me again.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Society is complex. But truth is there are no major problems when all people accept subjectivity is valid.

And to deny subjectivity would be stupidity. Can you please tell me in what post I said subjectivity didn't exist?

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

And to deny subjectivity would be stupidity. Can you please tell me in what post I said subjectivity didn't exist?

You said freedom is not real, and subjectivity requires freedom. You generally do not accept the existence of anything on a subjective basis, instead requiring every conclusion to be forced by evidence. That rules out all subjectivity.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

I have not rejected freedom or subjectivity, I just find it has nothing to do with any science.

And I find it terribly offensive that you would even call me a communist, especially when I have a cousin back in Beijing who I have not heard from since 1989. I don't know if he is dead or in prison.

I have never supported communism, nor the nazi, and that you even use this falsely, at me, is offensive.

I would like an apology, but I don't think I will get it from someone who like to make generalized false allegation about people. If you don't apologize, then do me a favour of never replying to me again.

See, you radically oppose any facts about choosing, because it is not science. That puts you together with all the rest who reject freedom and subjectivity.

 

[gnostic]

See, you radically oppose any facts about choosing, because it is not science. That puts you together with all the rest who reject freedom and subjectivity.

Don't reply to me, if you are not going to apologize to me when you falsely call me a "communist" (as well as a nazi). False claim or false accusation is "lying". Calling me a communist is terribly offensive towards me.

I am not going to waste any more time into replying to liar like you. I have lost a cousin to a communist regime and that someone would call me a "communist" is offensive.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

You said freedom is not real, and subjectivity requires freedom. You generally do not accept the existence of anything on a subjective basis, instead requiring every conclusion to be forced by evidence. That rules out all subjectivity.

I have never stated freedom isn't real. I have stated that we don't understand it and don't know for certain if it is real.

Subjective evidence needs to be verified. If two subjective experiences are shared then usually we can find a way to provide objective evidence of the subjective experiences.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

When you say freedom doesn't have anything to do with science, then you will just be grouped with all the others who reject freedom and subjectivity

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

I have never stated freedom isn't real. I have stated that we don't understand it and don't know for certain if it is real.

Subjective evidence needs to be verified. If two subjective experiences are shared then usually we can find a way to provide objective evidence of the subjective experiences.

You are fighting very hard intellectually against any knowledge about choosing, that is reality.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

You are fighting very hard intellectually against any knowledge about choosing, that is reality.

Against your assertion that there is a soul that exists outside of the material that I fight against. I have even proposed my personal belief on free will (which it exists that currently follows the known physics without having to appeal to supernatural-ism.)

You are simply an avid opponent to anything non-religious and I would guess in more specific contexts, non-islamic.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Against your assertion that there is a soul that exists outside of the material that I fight against. I have even proposed my personal belief on free will (which it exists that currently follows the known physics without having to appeal to supernatural-ism.)

You are simply an avid opponent to anything non-religious and I would guess in more specific contexts, non-islamic.

Now you are misrepresenting creationism again. The existence of the soul is a matter of opinion, that decisions are made is a matter of fact.

You are a ruthless fighter against subjectivity.

And you have no functional concept of choosing.

 

[gnostic]

When you say freedom doesn't have anuthing to do with science, then you will just be grouped with all the others who reject freedom and subjectivity

No, you are deliberately misconstruing what I am saying.

I told you quite explicitly that I believe in freedom, freedom of speech, and freedom of expression. But these are political and social issues, not science issue.

Evolution is science.
Nazism and communism are politics.

They are unrelated. You are mixing the two. Politics and science are not the same things.

I have being a pro-communism or pro-nazi, and that you would me a communist, is offensive.

And you still won't apologize to me for falsely accusing me of being a communist, then I would ask you not to reply to me.

Until there is an apology, this will be my last reply to you.