Interpretation... Or God's View

[Trailblazer]

Why would God create a system where so many of His children would go to Hell? Why would God use the threat of Hell to intimidate the actions of His children?

God didn't do that. Those are just Christian doctrines based upon misinterpretation of the Bible, nothing to worry about.

 

[Trailblazer]

There are a million questions that show the holy book reflects mankind and not God.

That's right, if you are referring to the Bible, because it was written by men, but the Bible is not the only holy book that was ever written.

 

[Bird123]

God didn't do that. Those are just Christian doctrines based upon misinterpretation of the Bible, nothing to worry about.

I'm just placing truth and questions out there for people to THINK. Do I really sound worried?? What would I really have to worry about?? There is really nothing for anyone to worry about. God is Unconditional Love in reality.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

That's right, if you are referring to the Bible, because it was written by men, but the Bible is not the only holy book that was ever written.

I have yet to find any religion or holy book that really Understands God. On the other hand, there are pieces of God in all of them. The Bible does carry a lot of good things about Love. On the other hand, as with all holy books, one must be careful to distinguish the mankind parts or one might wander from the Real Truth.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

I have yet to find any religion or holy book that really Understands God. On the other hand, there are pieces of God in all of them. The Bible does carry a lot of good things about Love. On the other hand, as with all holy books, one must be careful to distinguish the mankind parts or one might wander from the Real Truth.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

I have yet to understand why you think you Understand God or know the Real Truth about God.

By contrast, Jesus was the way and the truth and the life

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[nPeace]

Why would God create a system where so many of His children would go to Hell? Why would God use the threat of Hell to intimidate the actions of His children? Why would God teach His children to fry or destroy rather than Love enough to fix the problem? Why would God punish without any possibility of redemption for eternity? Why would God create classes of good people and evil people when this just supplies an excuse to hate?? If God is perfect, how could He create such imperfection that He would destroy so many? Etc. The correct answer is Intelligence would never have created such a mess. I bet even you could come up with a better way.

You seem to have considered many questions, and likely you came up with some interesting answers of your own.

I know that many religions teach about hell, but I don't know the the Bible teaches that.
From what I understand, the Bible was written in three languages - Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.
It did not use the word "hell". However, some translators used the word hell, when translating several words, and the church in Rome in the second century of the common era, had adopted the pagan religious view that God punishes people in hellfire for all eternity.

So, as far as I know God is not the one who thought up the idea of eternal torment. It was man.
In fact, God himself says this idea is foreign to him. (Jeremiah 7:30, 31) 30 ‘For the people of Judah have done what is bad in my eyes,’ declares Jehovah. ‘They have set up their disgusting idols in the house that bears my name, in order to defile it. 31 They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’

Many people think God is not fixing the problems.
Actually many people who once felt that way, realize that they were thinking that way based on their not having the facts, and additionally, because of the existing influence.

Have you ever been somewhere - school perhaps, or in the workplace, and you found yourself complaining, like everyone else, or the majority of persons there?
It happened to me. I allowed peers in my environment to affect my thinking to fit their thinking.
In fact, if I did not know what I know now, I might have been thinking like you, ten... maybe twenty years ago.

God is fixing the problem.
It might be illustrated this way...
Imagine that you are a very wealthy man - extremely wealthy.
You look around you, and your heart is saddened by the many problems you see, but what affects you the most, is seeing this...

Spoiler

Your heart aches does it not?
Don't you feel moved to do all you can to help - if not all - some? Of course you do... but where to start?

You are wealthy. That's a start. You have a means.
So you get to work. You start by locating a vast amount of acres of land. You get some architects to draw up some plans. You start to acquire materials. This will be a huge project, but you are determined.

The land is located, and you start clearing and leveling... >> fast forward a bit.
While this is taking place, more deaths from poverty is taking place. Your heart aches, and you are anxious, but you try to keep a clear head. ... >> Fast forward.

Imagine that people see you driving your big Mercedes Benz, as you pass through their poor neighborhood.
Better not get into ear shot.
You might hear them cussing you, and saying how people like you don't care about the poor, and their suffering.

They have no idea that you are doing something for them, that's actually costing you. They don't know how you heart aches.
>> Fast forward some two years, work is progressing, but you have another three years before anybody will become the first inhabitant on your land.
Meanwhile, many millions are dying from hunger.

Malnutrition unacceptably high and affects every country in the world: 2018 Global Nutrition Report

Approximately 3.1 million children die from undernutrition each year (UNICEF, 2018a). Hunger and undernutrition contribute to more than half of global child deaths, as undernutrition can make children more vulnerable to illness and exacerbate disease (UNICEF, 2018a).

>> Fast forward.
Your complexes are not completed, but a few of the buildings are livable .
You start moving people in. You feel a sense of accomplishment - satisfied.

However, they are other problems...

Spoiler

Suddenly you realize that these complexes are but an insignificantly small percentage of any solution you can offer, to the Big Problems in the world.

Without my actually explaining the illustration @Bird123, did you get the sense of it?
You cared, and you took great measures at costs to yourself, to do something about the problems that pained you. You started your project, but it takes considerable time to complete. when it's completed though, it offers help - Not very much, considering that the problems are too vast, and impossible for you to solve.

Now replace the "you" with God. Only this time, with a few things thrown out, which don't apply to him.
God cares, and he took great measures at costs to himself, to do something about the problems that pains him. God started a project, but it will take considerable time to complete. when it's completed though, it offers the complete solution to all the problems of mankind.

Yes Bird. God is not the way man has painted him.
The churches of all false religion has failed miserably in presenting the facts about who God is, and what he is doing for mankind.
Sadly, they have not taught you the truth - that God did not create this mess. Hence why you believe he did.
They are reprehensible, and the Bible says they will be punished.
It is only the bad that God removes, or destroys
Do you not remove the rotten, or diseased trees in your yard?
You do this because you know what will happen if you don't remove them. Why should the almighty creator do any less.

There are a million questions that show the holy book reflects mankind and not God. Everything about God will add up. Isn't that the direction one should search for the Truth??

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

I avoid becoming wise in my own eyes Bird. I consider that a root of a rebellious, prideful arrogant spirit... which is what cause the angel that opposed God - thus earning himself the title Satan - to sin.
(Proverbs 3:5-7)
5 Trust in Jehovah with all your heart, And do not rely on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways take notice of him, And he will make your paths straight. 7 Do not become wise in your own eyes. Fear Jehovah and turn away from bad.

Too many people today have developed this idea that their understanding is so great, "they got this". Yet they can't even educate the experts on the solution to these problems here mentioned, and the millions of others.

Spoiler: READ THIS

INEQUALITY AND EXCLUSION IN FOCUS
Inequality is at the heart of many of the gravest issues facing the global community, including development, climate, and peace. It affects people and structures across societies and borders and threatens to stymie hard-fought development gains.

What does this mean? A recent United Nations report shows that 20% of development progress was lost in recent years due to the unequal distribution of education, health, and living standards. The World Economic Forum has calculated that it will take women almost 100 years to reach gender equality. Exclusionary practices in security, justice, and politics are at the heart of many violent conflicts today. And it is seen as a key factor in the rise of protests around the globe, which shows no signs of abating in 2020.

Toppling barriers to opportunity is key to making the transformative progress needed in 2020. As stressed in the 2019 Human Development Report, we need to evolve our understanding of inequality.

Yet the same Bible which man has put down, has solve these problems among the nation living by Bible principles.
Isn't that interesting.
It's profoundly telling, as it demonstrates that people are talking, but they don't really understand what they are saying.
That, is clear to me.

 

[nPeace]

I have yet to find any religion or holy book that really Understands God. On the other hand, there are pieces of God in all of them. The Bible does carry a lot of good things about Love. On the other hand, as with all holy books, one must be careful to distinguish the mankind parts or one might wander from the Real Truth.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Mankind parts? Sounds like a job for some very special people.

 

[nPeace]

That's right, if you are referring to the Bible, because it was written by men, but the Bible is not the only holy book that was ever written.

See what I mean Trailblazer? You are always quick to agree with Bible bashers. Despite what you claim, your expressions give the impression that you are against, and do oppose the Bible.
Why? I believe it's because you get to promote belief in your infallible Bahaullah.
I feel you are not always aware that you are opposing the Bible.
It's as though your mind at that time is not being directed by you.

 

[Trailblazer]

You earlier said Bahaullah interpreted the Bible though. Have you changed your mind?
Yes, I understand you believe Bahaullah - the infallible.

No, I said that Baha’u’llah also explained what some words in the Bible mean (sun, moon, clouds, heaven, etc.), and He explained what Jesus did and who some OT Prophets in the Bible were and what they did, and He claimed to be the fulfillment of certain verses that refer to the Comforter and the Spirit of truth. That does not constitute interpreting the Bible.

We are not talking about words here. This is about whole texts, and entire writings. For example... either the dead are conscious or they are not. Either Jesus was fully man on earth, or he was not. Either God is one, or he is three. Either Jesus is equal to God, or he is not. Either Jesus (as the word) was created, or he was not....

This is how logic works... Either A is A, or it is not. A cannot be A, and yet not A.
Thus, to claim that A B C D ... Z are all correct, and yet A B C D ... Z all disagree on XYZ, is not logical. It is the opposite.

Okay, thanks for explaining that. Apparently we were not on the same page. I was referring to differing interpretations of individual verses, not about the whole text. I agree that either the dead are conscious or they are not. Either Jesus was fully man on earth, or he was not. Either God is one, or he is three. Either Jesus is equal to God, or he is not. Either Jesus (as the word) was created, or he was not....

See what I mean.
You're not a bit mixed up and confused, are you?
What are you talking about? I am not talking about verses, and you certainly were not ether, when you remarked that they can't even agree about the dead.

We were talking about different things but I think we are on the same page now.

Which I am asking you, do you think Jesus lied about being with his followers to the end of the world?

That is an example of what I was saying. That is one verse and it can mean more than one thing. For example, how would Jesus be with His followers, in body or in spirit? What do you mean by the end of the world, do you mean that literally, when the world is destroyed and no longer exists? If you look at all the English translations, some say end of the world and some say end of an age and these have different meanings. No, I do not believe that Jesus was lying. I believe that Jesus meant end of an age because I do not think that the world is going to come to an end.

Matthew 28:20
King James Version

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew 28:20

Bahaullah, no doubt believes that, and so do you. We'll see.

It is all a matter of perspective and personal belief. I see the new age unfolding because I have a certain belief. You don’t because you are still waiting for Jesus to return, so everything that is unfolding in the world today means something different to you.

This is what I see, I see the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spreading out in its stead.:

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7

The correct understanding is not found in, or gained from the Bible? How does one come to the correct understanding then.

By reading the Bible and trying to understand what it means.

You really are going to jump through these semantics hoops...
I suppose you will say, the Bible does not read either, so I am wrong to say, the verse reads this way, or the verse says...
Nevertheless, I'll play along.

Yes, that is what I would say. I understand the Christian perspective because that is what you have been taught, but I see its inherent problems. It lets you off the hook to have to read and think and understand what the Bible means of you just assume you know because you believe “the Bible says.”

I think you are against the Bible, even if you don't realize how your expressions show that. That's my viewpoint. How I interpret the evidence.

What are you basing that upon? What evidence do you have?

I would agree, only, I would say, if we understand what the Bible says, or is saying, or get the correct viewpoint of the Bible, or correct perspective of the texts.
I'm not into the semantics game, so I have a different view to you, regardless of what you say.

I would agree, only, I would say, if we interpret the Bible correctly we would understand what the Bible means.

We agree on that.
To add, their different conclusions are based on wrong understanding, and because they interpret the text, using their own ideas, rather than letting the scripture "do the talking", and guide their understanding to grasp the correct understanding

Not necessarily the meaning because every sentence or writing does not require a meaning.

The scripture does not talk or guide. I know other Christians who say that but it is very strange to me. But I agree we should not interject our own ideas. So maybe you mean not to overanalyze but rather allow the scripture to affect your heart, and I can agree with that, because the heart is God’s home.

For example,
(Matthew 15:15, 16) 15 Peter responded: “Make the illustration plain to us.” 16 At this he said: “Are you also still without understanding?
An illustration is designed to help a person understand a saying, yet some still don't understand the "meaning" of the illustration.

(John 10:24-26) 24 If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them: “I told you, and yet you do not believe. The works that I am doing in my Father’s name, these bear witness about me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not my sheep.
A demonstration is designed to show what is said, yet some still don't understand that the demonstration is enough for one to understand what is said.

(John 11:11-14) 11 After he said these things, he added: “Lazarus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazarus has died,

A plain statement is just that. It needs no explanation, but is used to make clear an earlier statement.
Hence, since the Bible contains a lot of plain statements, they don't carry a meaning, but explain, yes Trailblazer, explains

another passage.
In this way, the Bible speaks for itself, and needs no one to interpret a meaning. Rather, one can use the scriptures themselves, to understand what the Bible itself is saying.

Okay, I understand what you mean, from that perspective, but even what you believe is a plain meaning could mean something different. The story of Lazarus is a good example. I believe it has a spiritual meaning, not a literal meaning; Lazarus was spiritually dead, not physically dead. When Jesus said that He was the resurrection and the life and that whoever believes in Him will never die. He was talking about the eternal life of the soul, NOT the life of the physical body.

Glad to hear that. It's good to know we agree at least, on some things.
I have a feeling you don't agree though. So question... why do you keep saying Christians disagree on the Bible, rather than people?

Because Christians disagree on what the Bible means. Other people also disagree.

I'm saying they are not Christian, but rather, they are people who are blind, death, or have a heart of stone, either deliberately, or by being misled, who call themselves Christian... but are not.
Perhaps you did not get the correct understanding of my words.

So, are you saying that a Christian would know and agree with other Christians regarding what the Bible means unless they were blind, deaf, or had a heart of stone, either deliberately, or by being misled?

I see that as a judgment on other Christians and Jesus said to judge not lest ye be judged.

 

[Trailblazer]

See what I mean?
No Christian is in a hole. Why would they be, when they have the correct understanding?
I know why you want them to be, because your Bahaullah must be the one who is correct, but sorry. The Christians have the correct understanding.
The masses of divided people calling themselves Christian, don't. This is written all over the pages of the Christian Greek scriptures.
I mentioned a number of them already. Here is another... 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12

Christians might have the correct understanding of some verses but not is all verses. I can give you many examples. The plain meaning of the verses below is that the world would see Jesus no more because would not be I the world again because Jesus finished the work that God gave Him to do and he ascended to the Father in heaven. So it that was the case, why do most Christians believe that Jesus is going return to the world?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Then we also have this verse:

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

This verse clearly state that Jesus came into the world to bear witness to the truth about God, yet Christians believe that Jesus came into the world to die on the cross and save them from their sins. But where does Jesus say that is why He came? Paul might say that, but Paul is not Jesus and he contradicts Jesus.

Then we have this verse where Jesus says that His kingdom is not of this world, yet most Christians believe that Jesus is coming back to build the Kingdom of God on earth. Other verses say that Jesus ruled heaven so His kingdom was in heaven. You cannot have it both ways but you want it both ways.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Fact check. All words do not need interpreting. Explanations do not need to be interpreted.
Even if you believe that though, the question can be asked, "Whom should the interpreter be, and how do we know that one's interpretation is correct?"

The interpreter should be one who is qualified because He has have knowledge from God, or someone He appointed. Jesus never appointed anyone to interpret the Bible. Christians just took it upon themselves to interpret it, and they all believe they have the correct interpretation.

More bizarre... Don't the interpreter's words have to be interpreted?
Sounds complicated enough.

That is what dictionaries are for.

I don't see the understanding of scriptural guidance, or scriptural understanding to be that complicated.
Oh, the scriptures don't guide. They are not people.

If I said, "I saw the book fall. It was an old book."
This has no meaning needed to be interpreted. The two sentences are complete, in that they are both self explanatory. One adds to the other. A book fell. It was old.
Do you need to interpret "it", or haven't I done that?

That would be great if the Bible was that plain and easy to understand but most of it isn’t. For example, the parables have to be deciphered. Most scriptures are like that, even what Baha’u’llah wrote.

(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
Can the scriptures reprove you Trailblazer? Can they correct you... discipline you? Or is that people using the scriptures to do those things?
So when I read the Bible, and it says

something that is contrary to my view, the Bible hasn't corrected me, I have... or is that God?

I do not interpret those verses that way. Teaching, reproving, setting things straight, disciplining in righteousness; that refers to our morals, not correcting what is contrary to your view about the Bible meaning.

The word of God is not alive. Only living things are alive. The Bible is not living.
(Hebrews 4:12) For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart.
What?

Do you understand what it means for the Word of God to be alive? It means it has power to affect your soul and spirit.

(1 Thessalonians 2:13) Indeed, that is why we also thank God unceasingly, because when you received God’s word, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God, which is also at work in you believers.
What?
This speech is shocking! Who can listen to it?
That's not you Trailblazer, is it?

I do not know what you mean, but I hesitate to consider what Paul wrote as the Word of God; inspired by God is not the same as Word of God.

I don't understand how the Bible cannot agree, but can support. Can you explain?

The Bible cannot literally agree because it is not a person, but a viewpoint or interpretation can be supported by the Bible. Really this is just a matter of semantics.

I don't see a difference between agrees with a viewpoint, and supports an viewpoint. Nor do I see a difference between a viewpoint, and a meaning, in a particular context.
We may be speaking in two different contexts.

These are just different ways of saying what amounts to the same thing. Agrees with a viewpoint, supports a viewpoint, these mean the same thing. And a viewpoint is a meaning, what we believe a verse means.

So since you object to the context I am using, you have a different view.
Millions of people disagree with you, and millions disagree with me.
I can see a difference in says and means, because one is a plain expression, while the other may be an explanation, but apart from that, in context, a viewpoint - that is, a perspective, is a meaning, as well.
Your disagreeing doesn't change that understanding.

There is no need to argue about this. We are just saying the same thing with different words.

Okay, so your research caused you to retract your earlier statement. No problem. That understandable.

I never meant to imply that the Bible was anything less than Baha’u’llah wrote in that passage, God’s greatest testimony to His creatures. But that does not mean it was God’s direct testimony, it was God’s testimony through men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Yes, many make similar claims and give various explanations. Christians don't claim to be infallible, but certain explanations are given where the scriptures may not explain. You might call those interpretations.

Yes, I have seen those online and I learn from many of them.

They had the scriptures.
All they needed to do was look for the fulfillment of the prophesies, right.
(Acts 3:24-26) 24 And all the prophets from Samuel and those who followed him, as many as have spoken, have also plainly declared these days. 25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your forefathers, saying to Abraham: ‘And by means of your offspring all the families of the earth will be blessed.’ 26 God, after raising up his Servant, sent him to you first to bless you by turning each one of you away from your wicked deeds.”
Connecting what they knew the scriptures said

with what they were seeing and hearing, would have helped them, wouldn't it?
What would they have needed to interpret?

I agree. It would have helped them, just as it helps me to connect the Bible prophecies with what others witnessed Baha’u’llah doing when He walked the earth.

 

[Trailblazer]

See what I mean Trailblazer? You are always quick to agree with Bible bashers. Despite what you claim, your expressions give the impression that you are against, and do oppose the Bible.
Why? I believe it's because you get to promote belief in your infallible Bahaullah.
I feel you are not always aware that you are opposing the Bible.
It's as though your mind at that time is not being directed by you.

I could say the same thing about you, that your mind id not being directed by you, but rather by the Bible.

What you do not know is that I know Bird123 from way back... He is not a Bible basher, but he bases his opinions about religion on what is in the Bible.

I do not oppose the Bible, but I believe the dispensations of Moses and Jesus has been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

The gospel of Jesus has not been abrogated, only the Dispensation of Jesus has been abrogated....
That means by an arrangement of God the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is now according to the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, not according to the gospel of Jesus.

It really is quite simple. Every time God sends a new Messenger (Manifestation), His Revelation supersedes all the Revelations that have come before it. A Dispensation is the divine ordering of the affairs of the world, and that can be only according to one Manifestation at a time. Once a Manifestation of God has completed His Mission on earth and revealed scriptures, what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Manifestation of God appears; and then He completes His Mission and His scriptures are pertinent until the next Manifestation of God appears.

Once the Mission is completed, it is completed, as Jesus said:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Once the Mission has been completed and a religion has fulfilled its purpose for humanity, God sends a new Manifestation, and religion is renewed in order to suit the circumstances of the present age.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

The new Manifestation always brings the new remedy that is needed for then age in which He appears.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings, p. 213

 

[Muffled]

God didn't do that. Those are just Christian doctrines based upon misinterpretation of the Bible, nothing to worry about.

I believe there are some misinterpretations but there are also some correct interpretations. The correct ones give people enough to worry about.

 

[metis]

According to Jesus, there are only Two Commandments that need to be followed: love of God and our neighbor. All that remains is the application of those two basic principles.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe there are some misinterpretations but there are also some correct interpretations. The correct ones give people enough to worry about.

I agree.

 

[nPeace]

No, I said that Baha’u’llah also explained what some words in the Bible mean (sun, moon, clouds, heaven, etc.), and He explained what Jesus did and who some OT Prophets in the Bible were and what they did, and He claimed to be the fulfillment of certain verses that refer to the Comforter and the Spirit of truth. That does not constitute interpreting the Bible.

I think you are jumping semantics hoops for convenience. You are utilizing words on the whim, to make your position seem different to what you are trying to escape - namely that your position is no different to the Christians you try to make inferior to your religion.
You said this earlier ... Yes, Baha'u'llah’s interpretation of the Bible is His viewpoint on the Bible.

Okay, thanks for explaining that. Apparently we were not on the same page. I was referring to differing interpretations of individual verses, not about the whole text. I agree that either the dead are conscious or they are not. Either Jesus was fully man on earth, or he was not. Either God is one, or he is three. Either Jesus is equal to God, or he is not. Either Jesus (as the word) was created, or he was not....

We were talking about different things but I think we are on the same page now.

That is an example of what I was saying. That is one verse and it can mean more than one thing. For example, how would Jesus be with His followers, in body or in spirit? What do you mean by the end of the world, do you mean that literally, when the world is destroyed and no longer exists? If you look at all the English translations, some say end of the world and some say end of an age and these have different meanings. No, I do not believe that Jesus was lying. I believe that Jesus meant end of an age because I do not think that the world is going to come to an end.

Matthew 28:20
King James Version

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew 28:20

It is all a matter of perspective and personal belief. I see the new age unfolding because I have a certain belief. You don’t because you are still waiting for Jesus to return, so everything that is unfolding in the world today means something different to you.

This is what I see, I see the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spreading out in its stead.:

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7

I understand what you are saying here.
People do interpret these verses differently.
How would you go about getting the right understanding.? You accept whatever Bahaullah says, because you believe he is an infallible divinely inspired messenger of God.
In other words, you accept Bahaullah's viewpoint.

I however, use the Bible to gain understanding from what it says ... what is written.
What does the Bible say? What is actually written?
(Matthew 24:3) While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

parousia:
a presence, a coming
Original Word: παρουσία, ας, ἡ

sunteleia:
a joint payment (for public service), joint action, spec. completion
Original Word: συντέλεια, ας, ἡ
Definition: a joint payment (for public service), joint action, completion
Usage: a completion, consummation, end.

aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

In other words, what sign should we look for, indicating your presence, and the end of this present age, cycle, present system?
What is the present age.

Matthew 12:32
"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Matthew 13
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,

Matthew 28:20
teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age

The scriptures speaking of the age, is specific to the system at that time. The end of the age is specific to Jesus' coming with his angels - The end.
That's quite clear to me.

I think we disagree because of Bahaullah. You think he is infallible.

By reading the Bible and trying to understand what it means.

I agree. So by trying to understand what is written, you are gaining you understanding from where? The Bible. Isn't that true?

Yes, that is what I would say. I understand the Christian perspective because that is what you have been taught, but I see its inherent problems. It lets you off the hook to have to read and think and understand what the Bible means of you just assume you know because you believe “the Bible says.”

Evidently, you don't understand ... You just imagine you do.
I was taught many things. My current understanding is not what I was taught all my life.
I examined the Bible to understand what it was saying, and what was the correct understanding.
So no. I think you just cooked up some strange story.
That's not my story.

What are you basing that upon? What evidence do you have?

I'll separate this into another post for another time.

I would agree, only, I would say, if we interpret the Bible correctly we would understand what the Bible means.

The scripture does not talk or guide. I know other Christians who say that but it is very strange to me. But I agree we should not interject our own ideas. So maybe you mean not to overanalyze but rather allow the scripture to affect your heart, and I can agree with that, because the heart is God’s home.

Okay, I understand what you mean, from that perspective, but even what you believe is a plain meaning could mean something different. The story of Lazarus is a good example. I believe it has a spiritual meaning, not a literal meaning; Lazarus was spiritually dead, not physically dead. When Jesus said that He was the resurrection and the life and that whoever believes in Him will never die. He was talking about the eternal life of the soul, NOT the life of the physical body.

Evidently, you only believe that because you are trying to mesh the scriptures with Bahaullah's viewpoint, but they are clashing.
John 11:11-14
13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazarus has died,
Surely you don't think you are talking to a child younger than five Trailblazer, because those are the only ones gullible enough to swallow that. They don't know any better.
Wait... Bahais actually believe this.
No. I'm not buying it. You don't seriously believe that, do you.? I think this is a good example of clear evidence of deliberately twisting the scriptures, and using interpretation as an excuse to manipulate verse however you want to fit your belief. I believe doing such a thing is wicked.
However, I am willing to have my thinking corrected, so I want to give you an opportunity to show that you are not deliberately trying to manipulate the scriptures for your own purposes.

Because if this is what Bahais are doing, then they fit what Paul said at 2 Corinthians 11:13-15.
So please explain the story as it is happening - John 11

Let's start from verse 1.
(John 11:1) Now a man named Lazarus was sick. . .
I imagine you believe Lazarus was spiritually sick too, right?

Because Christians disagree on what the Bible means. Other people also disagree.

So, are you saying that a Christian would know and agree with other Christians regarding what the Bible means unless they were blind, deaf, or had a heart of stone, either deliberately, or by being misled?

I see that as a judgment on other Christians and Jesus said to judge not lest ye be judged.

See my post here.
See you some time later, when I will respond to the other posts.

 

[Bird123]

I have yet to understand why you think you Understand God or know the Real Truth about God.

By contrast, Jesus was the way and the truth and the life

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Walk a mile in my shoes.

 

[Bird123]

You seem to have considered many questions, and likely you came up with some interesting answers of your own.

I know that many religions teach about hell, but I don't know the the Bible teaches that.
From what I understand, the Bible was written in three languages - Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.
It did not use the word "hell". However, some translators used the word hell, when translating several words, and the church in Rome in the second century of the common era, had adopted the pagan religious view that God punishes people in hellfire for all eternity.

So, as far as I know God is not the one who thought up the idea of eternal torment. It was man.
In fact, God himself says this idea is foreign to him. (Jeremiah 7:30, 31) 30 ‘For the people of Judah have done what is bad in my eyes,’ declares Jehovah. ‘They have set up their disgusting idols in the house that bears my name, in order to defile it. 31 They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’

Many people think God is not fixing the problems.
Actually many people who once felt that way, realize that they were thinking that way based on their not having the facts, and additionally, because of the existing influence.

Have you ever been somewhere - school perhaps, or in the workplace, and you found yourself complaining, like everyone else, or the majority of persons there?
It happened to me. I allowed peers in my environment to affect my thinking to fit their thinking.
In fact, if I did not know what I know now, I might have been thinking like you, ten... maybe twenty years ago.

God is fixing the problem.
It might be illustrated this way...
Imagine that you are a very wealthy man - extremely wealthy.
You look around you, and your heart is saddened by the many problems you see, but what affects you the most, is seeing this...

Spoiler

Your heart aches does it not?
Don't you feel moved to do all you can to help - if not all - some? Of course you do... but where to start?

You are wealthy. That's a start. You have a means.
So you get to work. You start by locating a vast amount of acres of land. You get some architects to draw up some plans. You start to acquire materials. This will be a huge project, but you are determined.

The land is located, and you start clearing and leveling... >> fast forward a bit.
While this is taking place, more deaths from poverty is taking place. Your heart aches, and you are anxious, but you try to keep a clear head. ... >> Fast forward.

Imagine that people see you driving your big Mercedes Benz, as you pass through their poor neighborhood.
Better not get into ear shot.
You might hear them cussing you, and saying how people like you don't care about the poor, and their suffering.

They have no idea that you are doing something for them, that's actually costing you. They don't know how you heart aches.
>> Fast forward some two years, work is progressing, but you have another three years before anybody will become the first inhabitant on your land.
Meanwhile, many millions are dying from hunger.

Malnutrition unacceptably high and affects every country in the world: 2018 Global Nutrition Report

Approximately 3.1 million children die from undernutrition each year (UNICEF, 2018a). Hunger and undernutrition contribute to more than half of global child deaths, as undernutrition can make children more vulnerable to illness and exacerbate disease (UNICEF, 2018a).

>> Fast forward.
Your complexes are not completed, but a few of the buildings are livable .
You start moving people in. You feel a sense of accomplishment - satisfied.

However, they are other problems...

Spoiler

Suddenly you realize that these complexes are but an insignificantly small percentage of any solution you can offer, to the Big Problems in the world.

Without my actually explaining the illustration @Bird123, did you get the sense of it?
You cared, and you took great measures at costs to yourself, to do something about the problems that pained you. You started your project, but it takes considerable time to complete. when it's completed though, it offers help - Not very much, considering that the problems are too vast, and impossible for you to solve.

Now replace the "you" with God. Only this time, with a few things thrown out, which don't apply to him.
God cares, and he took great measures at costs to himself, to do something about the problems that pains him. God started a project, but it will take considerable time to complete. when it's completed though, it offers the complete solution to all the problems of mankind.

Yes Bird. God is not the way man has painted him.
The churches of all false religion has failed miserably in presenting the facts about who God is, and what he is doing for mankind.
Sadly, they have not taught you the truth - that God did not create this mess. Hence why you believe he did.
They are reprehensible, and the Bible says they will be punished.
It is only the bad that God removes, or destroys
Do you not remove the rotten, or diseased trees in your yard?
You do this because you know what will happen if you don't remove them. Why should the almighty creator do any less.


I avoid becoming wise in my own eyes Bird. I consider that a root of a rebellious, prideful arrogant spirit... which is what cause the angel that opposed God - thus earning himself the title Satan - to sin.
(Proverbs 3:5-7)
5 Trust in Jehovah with all your heart, And do not rely on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways take notice of him, And he will make your paths straight. 7 Do not become wise in your own eyes. Fear Jehovah and turn away from bad.

Too many people today have developed this idea that their understanding is so great, "they got this". Yet they can't even educate the experts on the solution to these problems here mentioned, and the millions of others.

Spoiler: READ THIS

INEQUALITY AND EXCLUSION IN FOCUS
Inequality is at the heart of many of the gravest issues facing the global community, including development, climate, and peace. It affects people and structures across societies and borders and threatens to stymie hard-fought development gains.

What does this mean? A recent United Nations report shows that 20% of development progress was lost in recent years due to the unequal distribution of education, health, and living standards. The World Economic Forum has calculated that it will take women almost 100 years to reach gender equality. Exclusionary practices in security, justice, and politics are at the heart of many violent conflicts today. And it is seen as a key factor in the rise of protests around the globe, which shows no signs of abating in 2020.

Toppling barriers to opportunity is key to making the transformative progress needed in 2020. As stressed in the 2019 Human Development Report, we need to evolve our understanding of inequality.

Yet the same Bible which man has put down, has solve these problems among the nation living by Bible principles.
Isn't that interesting.
It's profoundly telling, as it demonstrates that people are talking, but they don't really understand what they are saying.
That, is clear to me.

Very good report here. Lots of hard work, thanks.

Blame is one of the petty things mankind holds so dear. Blame God or people?? The facts paint a much different picture:

Mankind's goal is to have it made. Like you, I want everybody to have it made. On the other hand, God's goal is much different. God's goal is the education of God's children.

When times are good, we sit back and enjoy the ride, when adversity hits we have to analyze, think, study, plan and work on so many things on the road to resolution. Wisdom is acquired on the journey to Discover the solutions to problems. So many times adversity will point the direction of our learning.

I knew a man who had so many kids he struggled to feed them. This man never worried. This man told me that if God wanted his children here on Earth, God has to find a way of feeding them.

The true picture has many more variables to consider.

I do my best to help out all I can taking one bite at a time on the problems. On the other hand, know that God will not allow anyone to interfere with the lessons others are learning no matter how badly one might want to help. I have run into this several times in time.

Our actions reflect who we are just like God's actions reflect who God is. I do what I can.

The nations of the world simply print money when economies get in trouble. If all countries printed enough money to feed everyone equally, it would not change the economic balance and yet everyone would get fed.

Think. How can what you see on Earth be good for someone. Regardless of how bad something is goodness will poke it's head up. Lessons are being learned every day. The world moves forward regardless of how slow this seems to happen.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

On the other hand, God's goal is much different. God's goal is the education of God's children.

That's correct. And the way God educates humans is by sending Messengers who teach them.

 

[Bird123]

Mankind parts? Sounds like a job for some very special people.

Anyone with true Understanding can see something. Since we are all Special, Discovery awaits our attentive wide view.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

That's correct. And the way God educates humans is by sending Messengers who teach them.

Do you really think God is dependent on anyone??