Irish pastor on trial for 'insulting Islam'

[Terrywoodenpic]

That could mean this case is an over-reaction though.

Most of the worst crimes in Northern Ireland, have followed on from inflammatory oratory by pastors and priests.
if it is an over reaction this case will not stand up in court.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Most of the worst crimes in Northern Ireland, have followed on from inflammatory oratory by pastors and priests.if it is an over reaction this case will not stand up in court.

Do you remember the gay cake row? ( I don't mean the cake was gay! )

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/20/gay-wedding-cake-northern-ireland-tolerance

 

[Altfish]

Muslims are prosecuted when they call for people to be attacked.
the fact is, that they very rarely do say it in the Uk.
"Death to non-belivers" is more often seen in claims that Muslims say it, within posts like yours. Not said by actual Muslims.

People are very sensitive about their faith, it is not someting that they ever wish to debate, especially wth atheists.

Hate crimes of all sorts are usually prosecuited.

I have obviously imagined those, "Behead those who insult Islam", "Massacre Those who insult Islam", "Freedom go to Hell" and all the other posters at the anti-cartoon demonstrations.

I am very sensitive about my belief that The Fall are the best band ever, it is not something that I ever wish to debate, especially with Mariah Carey fans.
I'm very sorry but my love of The Fall is a belief, I believe it to be true and I have evidence to prove it but I expect to be criticised and challenged about my belief. If you have a faith you should expect to be challenged, if your religion is so strong and obvious you should welcome the opportunity to defend it.
If people are so confident about their religion/belief they should not be frightened of criticism and attempt to silence dissenters.

Only weak gods need human laws to support them.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Do you remember the gay cake row? ( I don't mean the cake was gay! )

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/20/gay-wedding-cake-northern-ireland-tolerance

Yes indeed.
Of course many England and wales laws do not yet apply in NI
they are still tinkering with the most basic exemptions to abortion laws.
It is still a very reactionery country in many ways.

The Cake row was very similar to the guest house one in England.
both enforced the law against sexual discrimination what ever ones moral or religious belief.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I have obviously imagined those,criticism those who insult Islam", "Massacre Those who insult Islam", "Freedom go to Hell" and all the other posters at the anti-cartoon demonstrations.

I am very sensitive about my belief that The Fall are the best band ever, it is not something that I ever wish to debate, especially with Mariah Carey fans.
I'm very sorry but my love of The Fall is a belief, I believe it to be true and I have evidence to prove it but I expect to be criticised and challenged about my belief. If you have a faith you should expect to be challenged, if your religion is so strong and obvious you should welcome the opportunity to defend it.
If people are so confident about their religion/belief they should not be frightened of criticism and attempt to silence dissenters.

Only weak gods need human laws to support them.

You might think that, and I might think that, however some faiths compare argument and critisism as heinous insult.
Muslims are not the only ones to do so.
World views of what is normal differ greatly.

 

[Akivah]

"Death to non-belivers" is more often seen in claims that Muslims say it, within posts like yours. Not said by actual Muslims.

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/8890.htm

"O, monotheist of Jerusalem. Pull out your knife and use it to #Stab the #Jews, the enemies of Allah."
Image text: "My brother, monotheist of Jerusalem, pull out your knife and slaughter a Jew. With his blood, you will grow closer to Allah, join the procession of the martyrs, or live in honor."

"Every Palestinian who sees a settler should run him over, stab him with a knife or screwdriver, or bash his head in with a hammer."

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/8890.htm

We are discussing Northern Ireland where there is no history of tension with Muslims.

I understand the situation in Israel and Palestine and the antipathy between the faiths. It is reported here that rather more palestinians have been killed in these knife attacks than have Jews.

 

[Altfish]

You might think that, and I might think that, however some faiths compare argument and critisism as heinous insult.
Muslims are not the only ones to do so.
World views of what is normal differ greatly.

So we just accept their ideas without discussion or criticism because they say it is a heinous insult? Calling something a heinous insult sounds to me like a way to close down debate.
What if Hitler had said that criticising Nazism is a heinous insult, would you have accepted that and let him get on with his anti-jewish holocaust?

Ideas must be open to debate and criticism.

 

[Akivah]

We are discussing Northern Ireland where there is no history of tension with Muslims.

You said that Muslims don't call for death for non-believers. I've provided quotes showing that they do. You can retract your statement now.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

So we just accept their ideas without discussion or criticism because they say it is a heinous insult? Calling something a heinous insult sounds to me like a way to close down debate.
What if Hitler had said that criticising Nazism is a heinous insult, would you have accepted that and let him get on with his anti-jewish holocaust?
What
Ideas must be open to debate and criticism.

The Holocauset was indeed terrible.
However it was not the reason we fought Germany nor the reason The Usa entered the war.

I agree that ideas should be debated, however it takes two to tango.

If you criticised Hitler or Nazism you were shot, discussion or trial did not enter their minds.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

You said that Muslims don't call for death for non-believers. I've provided quotes showing that they do. You can retract your statement now.

No , but I will qualify it.
It is certainly said by some Muslims in some countries.
but not often, and not with impunity in the UK. And then only by terrorist supporters.

I am sure That the Israeli settlers have only love for Muslims.

 

[Altfish]

The Holocauset was indeed terrible.
However it was not the reason we fought Germany nor the reason The Usa entered the war.

I agree that ideas should be debated, however it takes two to tango.

I never mentioned the war or why the UK or USA entered it. I was giving an example of a bad idea and the reason that ideas should always be open to debate which you are now appearing to accept.
Not sure exactly what you mean by, "....however it takes two to tango" ??

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I never mentioned the war or why the UK or USA entered it. I was giving an example of a bad idea and the reason that ideas should always be open to debate which you are now appearing to accept.
Not sure exactly what you mean by, "....however it takes two to tango" ??

It is a very well known saying..
meaning that you can not have a discussion with only one side taking part.

I have added to my post to clarify .

 

[Altfish]

I agree that ideas should be debated, however it takes two to tango.

If you criticised Hitler or Nazism you were shot, discussion or trial did not enter their minds.

Sounds a little like happened to Theo Van Gogh for making a film critical of Islam.
Sounds a little like happened to Charlie Hebdo for being critical of Islam.

I suppose I should be grateful that in NI they get taken to court for speaking their mind however critical of an idea the words were.

 

[Akivah]

No , but I will qualify it.
It is certainly said by some Muslims in some countries.
but not often, and not with impunity in the UK. And then only by terrorist supporters.

Wrong on every qualifier. How many would you like me to reference showing that Muslims call for the death of the other on a frequent basis? The arabs called palestinians incite on a non-stop basis. Try reading what the arabs say to each other. It looks like you are in for a shock.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Wrong on every qualifier. How many would you like me to reference showing that Muslims call for the death of the other on a frequent basis? The arabs called palestinians incite on a non-stop basis. Try reading what the arabs say to each other. It looks like you are in for a shock.

Read more accurately what I wrote, and where the fullstops are.

 

[Papoon]

An evangelical pastor is in a Northern Irish court because he called Islam "satanic" and "heathen" during a sermon he had streamed over the Internet.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...rts-with-hour-of-service-on-dvd-34284348.html

From the report: "He faces two charges - improper use of a public electronic communications network and causing a grossly offensive message to be sent by means of a public electronic communications network - after remarks made at Whitewell Metropolitan Tabernacle were streamed online."

What do people think of this? Should it be a crime to condemn a belief system in this manner? Should the law differentiate between condemning a belief system and its adherents?

Personally, I think this is being used as a blasphemy law to silence Islam's critics.

It is impossible to insult an abstraction.
Given that the Koran insults all who reject it, it only seems fair that those who reject it should be free to return the insult. If not, all sections of the Koran which insult non-muslims should be banned.
Good for the goose, good for the gander.

 

[Father Heathen]

Islam is not a system, it is a faith.
The law protects all faiths equally against such prejudiced and defamatory attacks.

In this case he broke various electronic communication laws. Which are more specific and easier to prosecute.

The Irish courts need to lay down the gavel and pick up the trowel and mind only their potato fields.

Denial of free speech is by far a greater evil than merely voicing an "offensive" opinion.

In a free and enlightened world, people should be able to think and believe what they want, and be able to freely voice such. If someone says something that is irrational and inaccurate, you correct it not with censorship and castigation but with education, debate, and discourse. Upholding our rights and liberty is of far more importance and value than trying to prevent potential 'butthurt', so let the tears flow.

 

[Father Heathen]

We do not have a written constitution at all. Nor need of one.

How naïve and short-sighted. A constitution is a legal document that protects and ensure your rights and liberty. However, those who don't value their rights and liberty and take them for granted don't really deserve to retain them, anyway. Keep in mind that it's the level of freedoms that separates the great nations from the miserable, backwards cesspits. Perhaps in some strange way people find comfort beneath a boot heel?

 

[Father Heathen]

And we feel that your system is anarchic.

Sorry, but when it comes to standing vs. kneeling, I prefer the view up here.