Is a Belief a Claim?

[Twilight Hue]

Actually, I've found that religious often tend not to live as if their religion is true.

If it was true, then I'm sure adherence wouldn't ever be a problem.

The fact it isn't, is extremely telling of the reality of the matter.

 

[Nimos]

Inspired by something I read in another thread here, where a member stated they're not making a claim, but expressing a belief, and another member, in the ever so civil and polite demeanor of so many of our debaters here, replied, "a claim."

If I tell you that I believe something with no expectation for you to believe that which I do, am I making a claim? Does that belief have to be supported by objective evidence? Does the belief need to be falsifiable?

Why or why not?

They are not the same.

A "claim" is an expression of knowledge and therefore one should be able to present proof or at least evidence for it.

A "belief" is to make a guess, whether it is justified or not.

"I know team A will win the match!!"

"I think/believe team A will win the match."

 

[McBell]

If I tell you that I believe something with no expectation for you to believe that which I do, am I making a claim?

Yes you are.
You are claiming belief

Does that belief have to be supported by objective evidence?

The claim that you believe something?
Not to me it doesn't.
When someone claims they believe something I take them at their word.
Mileage may vary with others.

Does the belief need to be falsifiable?

I am not of the opinion that some ones beliefs have to be falsifiable.

Now depending on what it is being claimed to be believed I might ask why they believe it

Edited to add:
Now if someone is presenting their beliefs as fact, then they would need to support it like any other fact.

 

[Bthoth]

If it was true, then I'm sure adherence wouldn't ever be a problem.

The fact it isn't, is extremely telling of the reality of the matter.

Great point. For example: if people actually accepted that the son of god died for their sins, How could they ever sin again?

 

[Nimos]

Yes you are.
You are claiming belief

I don't think this is valid, even though it is in theory true. No one can prove what they believe.

In that case, you might as well get rid of one of the words as they would have the same meaning.

 

[McBell]

I don't think this is valid, even though it is in theory true. No one can prove what they believe.

I fail to see the relevance.
Are you claiming that claims have to be proven?
If so, what are claims that are not proven called, if not claims?

In that case, you might as well get rid of one of the words as they would have the same meaning.

There are a great many words that are synonyms for other words.
Do all synonyms need to be removed?

 

[Nimos]

I fail to see the relevance.
Are you claiming that claims have to be proven?
If so, what are claims that are not proven called, if not claims?

No, claims don't necessarily have to be proven to be called a claim. But they have no value without them.

Unproven claims are called claims as well.

There are a great many words that are synonyms for other words.
Do all synonyms need to be removed?

Yes, if they share the same meaning, but a claim and a belief aren't the same.

As I wrote above if you didn't read it. A "claim" is an expression of having knowledge, a "belief" is not.

So when calling someone's belief a claim, which again is in theory true, it is pointless, because we can only assume that a person believes what they say they do.

a. If I told you that I like eating snails, I couldn't prove it to you. I could simply eat one and pretend I enjoyed it.

b. Furthermore, this is not the same as if I told you, that I believe that I might like snails.

If claim and belief was the same, then a and b would have the same meaning.

 

[McBell]

No, claims don't necessarily have to be proven to be called a claim. But they have no value without them.

Unproven claims are called claims as well.


Yes, if they share the same meaning, but a claim and a belief aren't the same.

As I wrote above if you didn't read it. A "claim" is an expression of having knowledge, a "belief" is not.

So when calling someone's belief a claim, which again is in theory true, it is pointless, because we can only assume that a person believes what they say they do.

a. If I told you that I like eating snails, I couldn't prove it to you. I could simply eat one and pretend I enjoyed it.

b. Furthermore, this is not the same as if I told you, that I believe that I might like snails.

If claim and belief was the same, then a and b would have the same meaning.

A map is not the terrain.

And that is what it appears to me you are doing.

 

[Nimos]

A map is not the terrain.

And that is what it appears to me you are doing.

I'm not trying to do that.

I assume you agree that a claim without evidence/proof has no value?

So if I said to you:
Me: "I'm an atheist"
You: "You are making a claim, can you prove it?"
Me: "No"
You: "Well then it is just your belief, it has no value"

It wouldn't make sense to have any conversations if what we believed about ourselves were merely seen as claims that had to be proven to everyone else. That is my point with what you wrote. And why I don't think that it is valid.

 

[CG Didymus]

Actually, I've found that religious often tend not to live as if their religion is true.

Actually, that is a pretty good point. Christians and Baha'is have a verse that says something to the effect of... Be doers of the word not just hearers. But, because most are just hearers, I think it's a legitimate question... Just how deep is their belief that their religion is true? But I don't blame them. These types of religions are very demanding of their followers... Live by all the rules and go off to preach and teach the religion.

So, the reality of how a religion is believed is more like... "I believe it is true... Probably... But I'm not going to give in to it completely."

 

[CG Didymus]

If I tell you that I believe something with no expectation for you to believe that which I do, am I making a claim? Does that belief have to be supported by objective evidence? Does the belief need to be falsifiable?

They are not the same.

A "claim" is an expression of knowledge and therefore one should be able to present proof or at least evidence for it.

A "belief" is to make a guess, whether it is justified or not.

"I know team A will win the match!!"

"I think/believe team A will win the match."

But when it comes to a religion, it sure seems like when people say they "believe", they are "asserting", "claiming" and expecting others to come to know that their religion is true. And that the world around them is not as real as we believe it to be. But that God and the spiritual world is what is truly real.

 

[Quintessence]

Ha! Way to make a thread about one of the things that is very annoying in the course of a discussion - the nonsensical assumption that any form of self-expression or communication of ideas is somehow making "claims" that others are expected to follow. Good grief.

 

[SalixIncendium]

But when it comes to a religion, it sure seems like when people say they "believe", they are "asserting", "claiming" and expecting others to come to know that their religion is true. And that the world around them is not as real as we believe it to be. But that God and the spiritual world is what is truly real.

Okay, let's try this. I don't believe the world is as real as you believe it to be.

Claim or belief?

 

[Nimos]

But when it comes to a religion, it sure seems like when people say they "believe", they are "asserting", "claiming" and expecting others to come to know that their religion is true. And that the world around them is not as real as we believe it to be. But that God and the spiritual world is what is truly real.

I honestly think that is something we all do, simply because we are not very careful with how we use words

But I agree that in religion it is very common because the phrase "I believe in God" and "believe" in general is very used and often followed by a lot of "God doesn't...", "God like.." claims.

 

[Nimos]

Okay, let's try this. I don't believe the world is as real as you believe it to be.

Claim or belief?

Claim

 

[Bthoth]

I fail to see the relevance.
Are you claiming that claims have to be proven?
If so, what are claims that are not proven called, if not claims?


There are a great many words that are synonyms for other words.
Do all synonyms need to be removed?

Beliefs can be considered practically a claim, as many accept a belief as if first hand.

For example; many belief the religious material is by god, then god inspired... etc. as if true.

 

[LuisDantas]

Inspired by something I read in another thread here, where a member stated they're not making a claim, but expressing a belief, and another member, in the ever so civil and polite demeanor of so many of our debaters here, replied, "a claim."

If I tell you that I believe something with no expectation for you to believe that which I do, am I making a claim? Does that belief have to be supported by objective evidence? Does the belief need to be falsifiable?

Why or why not?

A belief can be just a belief. But there are some (again, the usual suspects) that have somehow convinced themselves that others have to treat their beliefs as claims or even as truths and present some justification if they do not want to conform to those expectations.

 

[McBell]

It wouldn't make sense to have any conversations if what we believed about ourselves were merely seen as claims that had to be proven to everyone else. That is my point with what you wrote. And why I don't think that it is valid.

Then i suggest you do like I do, stop conversing with those who demand proof of belief...
Since it is a claim, it bears burden of proof.
That one can not prove it does not make the claim not a claim.

I see no reason to give beliefs a pass from being a claim simply because it can not be proven.

 

[We Never Know]

Inspired by something I read in another thread here, where a member stated they're not making a claim, but expressing a belief, and another member, in the ever so civil and polite demeanor of so many of our debaters here, replied, "a claim."

If I tell you that I believe something with no expectation for you to believe that which I do, am I making a claim? Does that belief have to be supported by objective evidence? Does the belief need to be falsifiable?

Why or why not?

Nope.

If Bobs says I believe my daughter is the prettiest girl in the world.... Its his belief and truth to him, no one else.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

Inspired by something I read in another thread here, where a member stated they're not making a claim, but expressing a belief, and another member, in the ever so civil and polite demeanor of so many of our debaters here, replied, "a claim."

If I tell you that I believe something with no expectation for you to believe that which I do, am I making a claim? Does that belief have to be supported by objective evidence? Does the belief need to be falsifiable?

Why or why not?

In order to answer the question pertaining to the specific incident which inspired your question, one would need to know the context.
Were it in a “debate” thread, it may have a different context than a “interfaith discussion” thread, or a “Q&A” thread etc.

In the english language, many words have a variety of accepted meanings/definitions.
Some variations of words can substantially alter intended meanings within a dialog.
In addition some different words or phrases can also be used to substitute or be synonymous with another word or phrase……this can be categorized as semantics.

Within debate threads, it is not uncommon for people to hide behind semantics; some intentionally, some unconsciously, some from genuine ignorance.

Often on this forum when one states a belief, it is often in the context of an implied claim;
As in “I believe” (accept) the “claim” that X exists.
The shortened version becomes “I believe X exists” or “I believe in X”, which can easily and accurately be construed as a claim.
It is not uncommon for someone who is aware that the burden of proof applies to the person that makes a claim……and understanding that they are unable to meet that burden of proof, they hide behind the semantics of claiming they are only stating a belief as a means of escaping that burden of proof.
Nevertheless in doing so they are positively asserting that they accept (“believe”) the claim, which still suffers the burden of proof.

If I tell you that I believe something with no expectation for you to believe that which I do, am I making a claim?

In the sense of holding a positive position on a proposition; that proposition (i.e. X exists) being a claim.
The holding of a positive position becomes an implied claim.

As far as being supported by objective evidence or falsifiable……..
Yes, in order to be rational.
But many manage to get by in life without being rational.