Sonofason
Well-Known Member
They could consider themselves Christians, but not everyone else in the world would necessarily view them as Christians.
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Is a person a Christian if...
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Daisies4me
Active Member
(quote)
Hi CP-- as a student, I am sure that you could easily find it if you took the time to look.
Although I don't feel the need to prove such obvious event to you, such that you should already know, but just for starters, how about this?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-has...-37-victim-nations-since-world-war-ii/5492051
read all of it, and then you can fill in the blanks, ok?
<smile>
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Hiya Metis
Interesting point about the Law. While it was fully in effect when Jesus was on earth, It was Jesus who actually pointed out the overstepping by the Priests, and that they "made the word of God invalid', because of their burdensome 'oral traditions' of men, rather than sticking to the actual law as presented to them by God.
The law was perfect. It didn't need 'tweaking' or 'adding to'. But the Pharisees and Sadducees let their pride and desire to exercise power over others, lead them to become greedy, arrogant, and overstep the Law of Moses as it was given. The people needed a Savior to deliver them from the burdensome yoke of the wicked priests that had veered away from the teachings of the Law, and substituted their own. Those who followed Jesus , you know, became enemies of the priests, outcasts, and many were fed to lions for entertainment in the Roman arenas. It was very dangerous to step away from the Pharisees and follow Jesus.
Notice, that because of the wicked priests, the people were burdened down and it made their worship burdensome. We aren't talking about individual Jews, we are talking about the 'clergy' class.
(At last count, there were 27 congregations of JW's in the political nation of Israel that exists today.) This topic is about the Religious leaders who didn't want Jesus , because he went strictly by God's law, and not the ones that the Priests made up for their own benefit and power over the congregation.
Interesting to note also, is the fact that those 'Jews' were born into Judaism, it was not anything that they had to make a personal decision about, or a dedication to, as Christians have to do. The difference between Judaism then and Christianity, is that a person must choose to devote themselves to following the Christ, and doing the will of God, and then symbolize that dedication by water baptism. Big difference. A matter of the heart. Not a birthright.
The example of how they were 'making the house of God a den of thieves, as Jesus stated, when He cleansed His Father's House, by overturning the tables of the money changers, and forming a rope and driving the animals out of the temple. They were taking advantage of poor people, charging them outrageous amounts for livestock that was blemished, that they could offer up as a sacrifice for their sins. Much can be said about that, but not enough space here. haha suffice it to say, that Jesus was not a happy camper, and they all scattered. But after his death, ofcourse, they came right back with a vengeance. Right back to scamming the people.
The religious leaders are the ones that made Judaism look bad, not Christ. He simply showed them up for what they were. And Jesus fulfilled the Law Covenant by his own shed blood, and instituted the New Covenant with those who came out of the clutches of the wicked priests. The New congregation of Dedicated ones that ate the last meal with Christ, became "Spiritual Israel", as part of the New Covenant implemented that very night of His death. These same ones, in the upper room, a week or so later, became 'filled with holy spirit', and given the gift of speaking and having all who heard them, hear what they were saying 'in his own language', so that the message got heard by all of the varying language groups that had come into Jerusalem to for the Festival of Pentecost, and they took the message back with them to their own homes, and the word about the Christ spread quickly throughout 'the world' that existed at that time.
What do you think about this? I could show the scriptures if need be, but it sure does take up a lot of space, and you may already know how to find them for your research.
wonderful day today, hope you are enjoying the nice weather.[/quote]Sorry but you are mischaracterizing how the Law was set up by God's orders to Moses in regards to how it was to be handled and applied, plus you are stereotyping people. Therefore, there's really nowhere for me to go on this since you have bought into some falsehoods and making assertions that simply are entirely false, so I'll simply stop this conversation.
Take care.
Interesting point about the Law. While it was fully in effect when Jesus was on earth, It was Jesus who actually pointed out the overstepping by the Priests, and that they "made the word of God invalid', because of their burdensome 'oral traditions' of men, rather than sticking to the actual law as presented to them by God.
The law was perfect. It didn't need 'tweaking' or 'adding to'. But the Pharisees and Sadducees let their pride and desire to exercise power over others, lead them to become greedy, arrogant, and overstep the Law of Moses as it was given. The people needed a Savior to deliver them from the burdensome yoke of the wicked priests that had veered away from the teachings of the Law, and substituted their own. Those who followed Jesus , you know, became enemies of the priests, outcasts, and many were fed to lions for entertainment in the Roman arenas. It was very dangerous to step away from the Pharisees and follow Jesus.
Notice, that because of the wicked priests, the people were burdened down and it made their worship burdensome. We aren't talking about individual Jews, we are talking about the 'clergy' class.
(At last count, there were 27 congregations of JW's in the political nation of Israel that exists today.) This topic is about the Religious leaders who didn't want Jesus , because he went strictly by God's law, and not the ones that the Priests made up for their own benefit and power over the congregation.
Interesting to note also, is the fact that those 'Jews' were born into Judaism, it was not anything that they had to make a personal decision about, or a dedication to, as Christians have to do. The difference between Judaism then and Christianity, is that a person must choose to devote themselves to following the Christ, and doing the will of God, and then symbolize that dedication by water baptism. Big difference. A matter of the heart. Not a birthright.
The example of how they were 'making the house of God a den of thieves, as Jesus stated, when He cleansed His Father's House, by overturning the tables of the money changers, and forming a rope and driving the animals out of the temple. They were taking advantage of poor people, charging them outrageous amounts for livestock that was blemished, that they could offer up as a sacrifice for their sins. Much can be said about that, but not enough space here. haha suffice it to say, that Jesus was not a happy camper, and they all scattered. But after his death, ofcourse, they came right back with a vengeance. Right back to scamming the people.
The religious leaders are the ones that made Judaism look bad, not Christ. He simply showed them up for what they were. And Jesus fulfilled the Law Covenant by his own shed blood, and instituted the New Covenant with those who came out of the clutches of the wicked priests. The New congregation of Dedicated ones that ate the last meal with Christ, became "Spiritual Israel", as part of the New Covenant implemented that very night of His death. These same ones, in the upper room, a week or so later, became 'filled with holy spirit', and given the gift of speaking and having all who heard them, hear what they were saying 'in his own language', so that the message got heard by all of the varying language groups that had come into Jerusalem to for the Festival of Pentecost, and they took the message back with them to their own homes, and the word about the Christ spread quickly throughout 'the world' that existed at that time.
What do you think about this? I could show the scriptures if need be, but it sure does take up a lot of space, and you may already know how to find them for your research.
wonderful day today, hope you are enjoying the nice weather.[/quote]Sorry but you are mischaracterizing how the Law was set up by God's orders to Moses in regards to how it was to be handled and applied, plus you are stereotyping people. Therefore, there's really nowhere for me to go on this since you have bought into some falsehoods and making assertions that simply are entirely false, so I'll simply stop this conversation.
Take care.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I thought you were asking my opinion, whereas since I'm not a Christian, I certainly wouldn't view it as such.
In regards to the early church, baptism was considered to be a mandatory introduction ritual for adults, but that certainly doesn't mean that the church viewed it as being essential for "salvation".
Sorry that I misinterpreted your question.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
That would make God a liar since He said the Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Law is "forever', "perpetual", etc.
Many, many, many times over, and your use of stereotypes is truly troubling. I don't stereotype Christians because I think it's unethical, nor would I stereotype Christian leaders for the same reason.
It was, and thanks.
Daisies4me
Active Member
Sorry but you are mischaracterizing how the Law was set up by God's orders to Moses in regards to how it was to be handled and applied, plus you are stereotyping people. Therefore, there's really nowhere for me to go on this since you have bought into some falsehoods and making assertions that simply are entirely false, so I'll simply stop this conversation.Hiya Metis
Interesting point about the Law. While it was fully in effect when Jesus was on earth, It was Jesus who actually pointed out the overstepping by the Priests, and that they "made the word of God invalid', because of their burdensome 'oral traditions' of men, rather than sticking to the actual law as presented to them by God.
The law was perfect. It didn't need 'tweaking' or 'adding to'. But the Pharisees and Sadducees let their pride and desire to exercise power over others, lead them to become greedy, arrogant, and overstep the Law of Moses as it was given. The people needed a Savior to deliver them from the burdensome yoke of the wicked priests that had veered away from the teachings of the Law, and substituted their own. Those who followed Jesus , you know, became enemies of the priests, outcasts, and many were fed to lions for entertainment in the Roman arenas. It was very dangerous to step away from the Pharisees and follow Jesus.
Notice, that because of the wicked priests, the people were burdened down and it made their worship burdensome. We aren't talking about individual Jews, we are talking about the 'clergy' class.
(At last count, there were 27 congregations of JW's in the political nation of Israel that exists today.) This topic is about the Religious leaders who didn't want Jesus , because he went strictly by God's law, and not the ones that the Priests made up for their own benefit and power over the congregation.
Interesting to note also, is the fact that those 'Jews' were born into Judaism, it was not anything that they had to make a personal decision about, or a dedication to, as Christians have to do. The difference between Judaism then and Christianity, is that a person must choose to devote themselves to following the Christ, and doing the will of God, and then symbolize that dedication by water baptism. Big difference. A matter of the heart. Not a birthright.
The example of how they were 'making the house of God a den of thieves, as Jesus stated, when He cleansed His Father's House, by overturning the tables of the money changers, and forming a rope and driving the animals out of the temple. They were taking advantage of poor people, charging them outrageous amounts for livestock that was blemished, that they could offer up as a sacrifice for their sins. Much can be said about that, but not enough space here. haha suffice it to say, that Jesus was not a happy camper, and they all scattered. But after his death, ofcourse, they came right back with a vengeance. Right back to scamming the people.
The religious leaders are the ones that made Judaism look bad, not Christ. He simply showed them up for what they were. And Jesus fulfilled the Law Covenant by his own shed blood, and instituted the New Covenant with those who came out of the clutches of the wicked priests. The New congregation of Dedicated ones that ate the last meal with Christ, became "Spiritual Israel", as part of the New Covenant implemented that very night of His death. These same ones, in the upper room, a week or so later, became 'filled with holy spirit', and given the gift of speaking and having all who heard them, hear what they were saying 'in his own language', so that the message got heard by all of the varying language groups that had come into Jerusalem to for the Festival of Pentecost, and they took the message back with them to their own homes, and the word about the Christ spread quickly throughout 'the world' that existed at that time.
What do you think about this? I could show the scriptures if need be, but it sure does take up a lot of space, and you may already know how to find them for your research.
wonderful day today, hope you are enjoying the nice weather.
Take care.[/QUOTE]
Hi Metis-- you said:
[/quote]Sorry but you are mischaracterizing how the Law was set up by God's orders to Moses in regards to how it was to be handled and applied, plus you are stereotyping people. Therefore, there's really nowhere for me to go on this since you have bought into some falsehoods and making assertions that simply are entirely false, so I'll simply stop this conversation.
D: oh, I am so sorry to hear this. I am afraid that I must stand by everything that I have stated, as I can show you in the Bible where every bit of it is found.
But I understand that it is not your choice to adhere to what the Bible teaches, and it is also your choice to accept what pleases you. That is what I have stated from the beginning, and I still adhere to that. however!
i do dispute your allegations of 'stereotyping' and 'mischaracterizing', and especially , I do take umbrage at being told that I 'brought some falsehoods', or made false assertions. That I do not accept in any manner, and am very disappointed that you feel that way. and so it is best that we discontinue the conversation on that note, I agree.
Faith is not a possession of all people. The Bible clearly states that. So it is what it is, and I wish the best for you .
I still wish for you a true peace from the God of the Bible.
Daisies4me
Active Member
(quote)
Hi Metis
edited to add: God made many covenants, including the New Covenant that Jesus made with his followers at the last meal prior to his murder.
the Law covenant , was an agreement that the Israelites BROKE. many times, and God forgave them many times, but the last time, He did not forgive them for instigating the death of and rejecting His Son that He sent to them. see Jeremiah 31:31.
Actually, everything I have said to you about this topic is found in the Bible. I understand that you do not adhere to the Bible. If I understood you correctly, you said that you were raised in a 'Christian' household, and studied and taught the Bible to students. How can this be, I am asking myself, if you do not trust or have faith in the Bible?
The Law Covenant was fulfilled. Jeremiah 31:31-34 prophesied that it would happen, and it did, just as it was foretold.
The last King to 'sit upon Jehovah's throne was wicked King Zedekiah. Jehovah took his crown away, and left no one in the earth representing Him, until 'he comes who has the legal right', which was Jesus, thru the lineage of David, to 'sit upon the throne of David'. read it for yourself at Ezekiel 21:24-27.
There are many 'Christian leaders' that I would not recommend, either, as many are much the same as the Pharisees were. I would probably agree with you on most of the ungodlly things they have perpetrated upon their 'flocks'.
They, too, do not have God's favor, and as Revelation 18:3-5 shows, as a part of Babylon the Great,their future isn't looking all that great, either.
No offense is intended toward you or any others, but the Word of God MUST be made known to all, even though it is not popular, before 'the end' of this system of things comes to pass, as per Matthew 24:13-14. I speak with you as I do with any and all others, certainly not to be demeaning in any way, "just the truth', Ma'am. as the old saying goes..I am not out to win any popularity contests, but to help all of those who are 'sighing and groaning over the detestable things being done in the earth', as the scripture states (Ezekiel 9:4)
Those who hear and learn may save their own lives by paying attention to the words given to us by Almighty God.
Peace to you
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CogentPhilosopher
Philosophy Student
Well for one thing you have the burden of proof. An assertion made without proof can be dismissed without it.
For another all of the evidence I have seen has been to the contrary.
As for the site, the article you quote uses answers.com as a reference, does not look to be trustworthy at all, and looks to be very biased.
Daisies4me
Active Member
CogentPhilosopher
Philosophy Student
RESOLUTION
Active Member
You do not believe infants to be saved?
Have you seen the film 'Heavens for real' ?
What is heaven> Therein lies the dilemma because you have never been.
Do I believe infants who die have eternal life? Then yes I do.
But until you can explain what heaven you mean then you don't get to say who goes to heaven or wherever they go.
RESOLUTION
Active Member
Metis,
You have to take into account that the covenant which included the laws given to Moses was not the final covenant and would not be like the old. Jeremiah 31:31-34.
God literally lead them out of Egypt and even when they saw his mighty acts they turned to idol making.
Serving God in the new way is being alive in Spirit and being acceptable to God- not by means of obeying laws but doing so
by the Spirit and Gods law being within. You do not break the law but you uphold it as Christ did by loving God and loving your neighbour, Not put right by obeying the Old Covenant but being part of the New Covenant the final Covenant for all mankind.
Many people stereotype God by making it more about his Covenants of old than God being the same God today and actually
with us, capable of making his will known to us. Covenants do not make a relationship with God but being born of the Spirit and truth by faith does.
Daisies4me
Active Member
(quote)
D; 'heaven' as it pertains to humans on earth, means the atmosphere existing above the earth, doesn't it? where the birds fly? The 'heaven of the heavens' is the so-called expanse above the planet earth, from which God surveys the things of the earth, and other planets and galaxies.
As I understand the scriptures to say, the hope for all mankind that no longer have life, but are dead, which is the opposite of being alive, is the resurrection promise made by Jesus Christ. at John 5:28-29.
That resurrection is yet to take place, and it takes place on the earth e mankind was placed by God to live, and people are resurrected back up in human form, just as Lazarus was, when Jesus resurrected him back to life. Lazarus is the example of which we can all expect to experience in the general resurrection in 'the last day'. When 'those in the memorial tombs hear his voice and come out'... Is this not what the Bible says about the people who have died?
RESOLUTION
Active Member
(quote)
Hello Revolution
You asked this question-----
R:How can an infant go to heaven if they do not believe?
----
Why do you think that when an infant dies, it 'goes to heaven'?
Everyone living, (as all humans are born in sin) when they die, go to the common grave of mankind, or "hell". Sheol, or Hades, in other languages. All mean the same thing. Where the dead go. The place on nonexistence, no pain, no thinking ability, the opposite of being alive.
"the Memorial Tombs".
Please note Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10.
Act 2:24-27 also. Even Jesus 'went to hell' and God resurrected him back to life right here on earth.
Everyone who dies, goes to the grave to await the promised resurrection in the last day.
John 5:28-29.
something to think about...
What I actually wrote in full.
King James Bible
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Children are the most trusting and loving by nature. I have no doubt they go to be with the LORD.
As you can see I said, " I have no doubt they go to be with the LORD."
King James Version
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
We also know that Elias and Moses appeared and spoke with Christ.
King James Bible
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
You believe what you choose, I choose to believe God and what he teaches. I believe Children have no sin to hold them in the grave.
Hence Christ descended into hell the third day he rose again from the dead.
God himself is in all places at all times.
Psalm 139: 8. If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
LORD, in capitals always denotes God the Father. Hence my reply stated Children I have no doubt go to be with the LORD.
What is so difficult for you to grasp?
So not everyone goes to the grave to wait for resurrection day. Moses and Elias appeared and spoke with Christ.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, there can be and actually are more than just one covenant, but according to Torah and Tanakh, the Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Law are "forever" and "perpetual", and that shouldn't be ignored.
So many of the books in the Tanakh, including Isaiah, put observance and non-observance of the Law as being paramount, so why would God punish those who do not honestly try and observe the entire Law (all 613) and then supposedly turn around and have it that the Law really wasn't important after all.
However, just a reminder that non-Jews are not bound by either, so it certainly is at the least hypothetically possible that God could have a covenant with them.
Daisies4me
Active Member
(quote)
Hi Resolution
while you are bringing up many topics all at once, (some of your statements I am in agreement with), but the main question that I have for you, is
what happens to infants when they die?
If we could focus on that issue for a moment --
You said: The will of God in Christ is to love one another and God. An infant cannot break the law of love for it cannot knowingly not love God or man in their infant form.
D: correct that infants cannot be a decision to obey God, or disobey. So how could an infant, born in sin, unable to choose, make a case for 'believing' or 'choosing' to serve God? They cannot. Baptism is only an outward symbol of a dedication to do the will of God ALREADY made in the heart..so, being born in sin, and the wage sin pays is death....they die and go to the grave, or 'hell', along with all others that have died, and they await the resurrection call like all other dead persons.
If your reasoning was correct then all who infants and children who are not able to reason would go to hell.
Eternal life, is a free gift of God, you cannot earn it because all have sinned and through Adam fall short.
D: There is no difference, imo, between the death of an infant, than the death of an elderly person, etc., the same eventuality applies across the board, to everyone. Do you believe this to be true?
This is the point that I was asking you to clarify.
You said:
We also know that Elias and Moses appeared and spoke with Christ.
D: speaking of the transfiguration, it was a vision. Of things yet to come. Not a literal happening.
It also has no application on the question 'do infants go to heaven when they die'.
You said:So not everyone goes to the grave to wait for resurrection day. Moses and Elias appeared and spoke with Christ.
D: The Bible only mentions 2 resurrections both in the future, for Bible believers. The 'first' resurrection', (if there is a 'first', that indicated they would be others,) and the resurrection 'in the last day', or what is referred to as the general resurrection.
Since Adam sinned, ALL of his offspring are born in sin. Sin means death. All who die have the same 'eventuality' in the current system of things, until the Bible has been fulfilled, it remains to be so. see Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
These are the reasons that I question your statement. I don't see the same interpretation as you do.
There are no humans 'in heaven'. Mankind was created from the dust of the ground, and made to breathe the air and is to live forever upon the earth. Never did God say to Adam or Eve, "if you obey me, then you will go to heaven". That was never an option for them. They were to live on the earth, populate and cultivate it according to God's instructions to them.
There is no oxygen outside of the realm of this earth. It was not made for humans to exist in the heavenly realm of God. see Psalm 115:16-17.
"Would a person be considered a Christian if they wanted to follow Christ's teachings, but didn't exactly view him as God, but rather a prophet or messenger of God? Because technically they would be following Christ's path, just not believing that he himself was God or part of a trinity"
YES....
YES....
"JW's." That would make the Watchtower Society and its members Christians yet it denies so many basics of the faith!Daisies4me....is an example of a Christian
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
IMO, yes.
Many cite John 3:16 as being "the Bible in a nutshell", and the verse says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.". If one asks what does believing in him entail, that can be answered by reading the Sermon On the Mount and Matthew 25's Parable of the Sheep & Goats, both sources which put heavy emphasis on action, especially to help the poor and downtrodden.
Many talk the talk, but far fewer it seemingly walk the walk, and it's the latter that more determines if one really believes in Jesus.