Is abortion homicide?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And it's a real pity that that sometimes happens. However, no woman should reserve the right to kill her own unborn child for any reason -- when the disruption of pregnancy becomes an inevitable element in surgical intervention to save the mother's life, whether as a result of the pregnancy or not, the choice is still not hers; it is her doctor's.

Well, there's the big middle finger to half of humanity for the day.

You cannot say that because in some rare cases, some women suffer to varying degrees due to the continuation of a pregnancy that the standard ought to be set for the willful mass slaughter of the innocent at the behest of their own mothers. To be quite frank, s**t happens; the world is far from perfect.

There are lots of things that we're powerless to do anything about; unwanted pregnancy is not one of them.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

To be quite frank, s**t happens; the world is far from perfect.

And the same can be said about your extreme opposition to abortion. Who cares. It's not like they're fully conscious, anyway.

 

[Stalwart]

Some of them would have lead others into sin and possibly hell as well, so in those cases, abortion was good ( For instance, if Nero, Joseph Stalin, or Adolf Hitler were aborted, it would have been good for everyone and saved millions of lives and saved them from Hell, therefore we know abortion has the potential to be good for everyone, even from a Christian perspective.)

No. The means are never justified by the ends. Abortion is never acceptable, and should never be permissible. You are attempting to dignify and absolute and certain moral wrong with an uncertain hypothetical - even if your notion of ends-justify-the-means held up (which it does not), you are not employing means which are relative to the gravity of evil contained in the hypothetical (and not actually certain to come about) end.

 

[Spiderman]

The unsaved souls of the dead unborn are not tortured; they simply exist without communion with God, because they never had the chance to know Him, or to come into actual communion with Him through the provision of divine grace and the virtue of charity, which is necessary to salvation, via the sacrament of baptism. Hell is punishment, and heaven is reward. Limbo is neither; the dead unborn go there because they do not deserve punishment, but nor do they deserve reward.

Which is more merciful? The former. But which is more just? Neither - because as I have explained to you here, the aborted do not go to hell, and do not consciously suffer. Instead, they are held in limbo; a state of neutral suspension. The premise of your question is wrong.

Banning an immortal soul from heaven and the ability to experience joy for all eternity is a punishment. If you don't believe that, please don't share with anyone whatever it is you're smoking

 

[Stalwart]

Well, there's the big middle finger to half of humanity for the day.

Feminism is a plague -- I'm not going to dignify this argument of 'oh, that's anti-woman!!'. It is infantile.

There are lots of things that we're powerless to do anything about; unwanted pregnancy is not one of them.

Just as the state ought to reserve the right to infringe on the sovereignty of parents who mistreat or harm their children in the home, so should the state reserve the right to intervene in like manner to protect children who are not yet born.

And the same can be said about your extreme opposition to abortion. Who cares. It's not like they're fully conscious, anyway.

Sure could, but don't expect me to embrace indifferentism.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Sure could, but don't expect me to embrace indifferentism.

You already have, towards the wellbeing of the person who's pregnant. You didn't think that a 9 year old girl who was pregnant with twins due to being raped has a right to an abortion. You only care about fetuses, not girls/women.

 

[Stalwart]

Banning an immortal soul from heaven and the ability to experience joy for all eternity is a punishment. If you don't believe that, please don't share with anyone whatever it is you're smoking

No it isn't because heaven is a reward. In the case of the dead unborn, it is an unwarranted reward. Heaven is extraordinary; limbo is the norm. They are not being punished, but nor are they being rewarded.

 

[Spiderman]

Limbo (Latin limbus, edge or boundary, referring to the "edge" of Hell)

It is a punishment. They are banned from experiencing joy.

 

[Stalwart]

Limbo (Latin limbus, edge or boundary, referring to the "edge" of Hell)

It is a punishment. They are banned from experiencing joy.

They are unable to experience joy because they never experienced it, and therefore cannot suffer the pain of being without it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

They are unable to experience joy because they never experienced it, and therefore cannot suffer the pain of being without it.

Same for fetuses that are aborted. So you just refuted your own argument against it. Lol.

 

[Spiderman]

They are unable to experience joy because they never experienced it, and therefore cannot suffer the pain of being without it.

Oh, but only if they had a priest pour water over their heads and mutter the right formula of words they would be in heaven forever, right?

 

[Stalwart]

You already have, towards the wellbeing of the person who's pregnant. You didn't think that a 9 year old girl who was pregnant with twins due to being raped has a right to an abortion. You only care about fetuses, not girls/women.

Blatant slander. As I said:

Didn't read the whole case, merely the introductory paragraph, but if the mother's life is at risk, then, as above, saving her becomes the intention, and the act involved in that is different to abortion. I'm not saying I would force her to birth the children.

 

[Stalwart]

Same for fetuses that are aborted. So you just refuted your own argument against it. Lol.

...Who do you think I am talking about?

 

[Stalwart]

Oh, but only if they had a priest pour water over their heads and mutter the right formula of words they would be in heaven forever, right?

Can't say. Probably. As I said before, we cannot know for sure that God confers supernatural baptism on the dead preborn, so we should not operate on the presumption that he does.

Your 'argument' is an emotionally-charged fit.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

...Who do you think I am talking about?

I know. I'm just saying that if limbo isn't hurting them, neither is abortion and for the same reasons.

 

[Spiderman]

While the Catholic Church has a defined doctrine on original sin, it has none on the eternal fate of unbaptized infants. God is not bound by any laws. He can let whoever he wants into heaven and he can baptize them.

There are canonized Saints who never experienced the sacrament of baptism conventionally. Their baptism was with their own blood.

God can find plenty of means to baptize those he know will die as infants, and he can easily and effortlessly provide all that is necessary to make them fit for heaven.

 

[Spiderman]

Can't say. Probably. As I said before, we cannot know for sure that God confers supernatural baptism on the dead preborn, so we should not operate on the presumption that he does.

Your 'argument' is an emotionally-charged fit.

No, I was saying, if only the infants in limbo had been baptized, they wouldn't be in limbo right? It was the fact that they weren't baptized that would theoretically get them banned from Heaven right?

 

[Stalwart]

I know. I'm just saying that if limo isn't hurting them, neither is abortion and for the same reasons.

Abortion deprives them of mortal life, and the opportunity to cultivate their souls into Christian ones so as to merit. It does grave harm to them -- the point is that they are innocent.

While the Catholic Church has a defined doctrine on original sin, it has none on the eternal fate of unbaptized infants. God is not bound by any laws. He can let whoever he wants into heaven and he can baptize them.

There are canonized Saints who never experienced the sacrament of baptism conventionally. Their baptism was with their own blood.

God can find plenty of means to baptize those he know will die as infants, and he can easily and effortlessly provide all that is necessary to make them fit for heaven.

Can, yes, but we do not know for certain that he does, and so we should not operate on the assumption that he does. I am getting well and truly sick of repeating myself, so if you intend on persisting with this, I will not be dignifying it with any further responses.

Martyrdom of blood is also completely aside of abortion; they are killed not for the faith which they hold, but are murdered in a state of innocence, for reasons totally aside of the faith which they do not hold anyway.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Abortion deprives them of mortal life, and the opportunity to cultivate their souls into Christian ones so as to merit. It does grave harm to them -- the point is that they are innocent.

It also deprives them of suffering and the stain of actual sin. So you're actually doing good to them. They get to stay innocent.

 

[Stalwart]

It also deprives them of suffering and the stain of actual sin. So you're actually doing good to them. They get to stay innocent.

Perhaps you could argue that, and I expect it has been argued before, but as I have said, the ends never justify the means; murder of the innocent -- abortion -- is never permissible, nor excuseable.