Is abortion homicide?

[Saint Frankenstein]

Perhaps you could argue that, and I expect it has been argued before, but as I have said, the ends never justify the means; murder of the innocent -- abortion -- is never permissible, nor excuseable.

I am arguing that. You're not offering a rebuttal.

 

[Spiderman]

Can, yes, but we do not know for certain that he does, and so we should not operate on the assumption that he does. I am getting well and truly sick of repeating myself, so if you intend on persisting with this, I will not be dignifying it with any further responses.

Martyrdom of blood is also completely aside of abortion; they are killed not for the faith which they hold, but are murdered in a state of innocence, for reasons totally aside of the faith which they do not hold anyway.

you didn't answer my question. If the unbaptized babies in limbo (A theory that you have indicated you embrace, based on "Baptism being necessary for salvation") had been baptized, that would have eliminated all basis for them being in limbo, and they would be in heaven right?

By the way, the Holy Innocents were slain as babies, neither they nor their parents were Christian, they were not slain for any faith they held and neither were they baptized, and they are canonized saints of the Church.

This makes for a good case that God would bring slain infants into Heaven, even if they weren't baptized.

 

[Stalwart]

I am arguing that. You're not offering a rebuttal.

I will make clear for the third time that even if your argument as to them being granted mercy through pre-emptive death in the face of inevitable sin (which is false, because it is in defiance of God's intentions for that person, deprives them of the opportunity of becoming a member of the Body of Christ, and therefore of the opportunity to merit, and to attain joy), the ends never justify the means. Here, the means is the murder of the innocent -- it cannot be justified.

 

[Spiderman]

Scripture says of Judas "It would have been better if he were never born". Essentially, Scripture is saying "it would be better if Judas were aborted".

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I will make clear for the third time that even if your argument as to them being granted mercy through pre-emptive death in the face of inevitable sin (which is false, because it is in defiance of God's intentions for that person, deprives them of the opportunity of becoming a member of the Body of Christ, and therefore of the opportunity to merit, and to attain joy), the ends never justify the means. Here, the means is the murder of the innocent -- it cannot be justified.

You're still preventing the fetus from commenting mortal sin, and to be one "weeping and mourning in this vale of tears".

 

[Stalwart]

You're still preventing the fetus from commenting mortal sin, and to be one "weeping and mourning in this vale of tears".

And? That's not a good thing. If the angels could envy (they can't -- envy is a sin), then one of the things they would envy us for is our ability to undergo suffering.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And? That's not a good thing. If the angels could envy (they can't -- envy is a sin), then one of the things they would envy us for is our ability to undergo suffering.

Of course it's not a good thing to Catholicism, since it's a sadomasochistic religion.

 

[Stalwart]

Of course it's not a good thing to Catholicism, since it's a sadomasochistic religion.

Please yourself with however you want to view our perspective on suffering, which you will encounter just as much as we, regardless of how much you hate suffering itself. I'm not here to convert you.

I'm about done with this thread, I think -- it has taken up far too much of my time this morning. Thanks for the conversation, you two and others.

(Just kidding. I'm absolutely disgusted.)

 

[Brickjectivity]

For me this is not something I have to make a decision about. I don't get pregnant, but here's what I think and then here's what the Christian scripture tells me for anyone curious about it.

I think that calling abortion 'Homocide' places the law above its station. Its like pretending the law can create children. Suppose you make a law that no person shall be reared by any other than a state certified child expert. Do you believe that this is appropriate? Certainly you could do it and might save some children from bad parents. If it is appropriate, then laws against abortion are appropriate. I do not think either of those is appropriate. I think that a mother has to grant life to a child by loving it. The mother is umbued with a special power. There is a transfer of humanity from her to the child. If a mother won't love her child then the law is ineffectual in correcting that. Making a law about it is like saying the law makes us human. Sure, I know abortion is wrong; but I just don't think that the law should be involved.

Christian scriptures do not encourage any kind of contraception at all whatsoever (abortion included) unless there is a situation where they can't be reared properly. Each mother and father pair are a potential fountain of righteous souls. The scriptures (to paraphrase) say "Produce. Make babies. Always as many as you can." Scriptures are concerned with the massive and rapid production of complete reformed and moral souls in ever increasing numbers. The first command in Genesis is "Be fruitful and multiply..." Contraceptives and abstinence from sex are both considered ludicrous, shameful and wasteful. On the other hand midwives are able to end the lives of unsuitable births without legal ramifications, such as stillborn children. Parents are permitted to end the lives of unspiritual or untrainable children. This probably includes mentally retarded children. The question of 'Homicide' does not occur. Its simply a matter of production of souls.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Please yourself with however you want to view our perspective on suffering, which you will encounter just as much as we, regardless of how much you hate suffering itself. I'm not here to convert you.

I'm about done with this thread, I think -- it has taken up far too much of my time this morning. Thanks for the conversation, you two and others.

(Just kidding. I'm absolutely disgusted.)

I don't hate suffering. It's just part of life, neither ultimately good or bad. I'm just not hypocritical on the subject like Catholicism is. If you just like whipping yourself, wearing hairshirts, the ciice, etc. just admit it. There's a community who will accept you for it. The angels can join in, too, if they envy suffering so much.

Good, I'm disgusted, too.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Feminism is a plague -- I'm not going to dignify this argument of 'oh, that's anti-woman!!'. It is infantile.

Denying pregnant women the legal rights that we even grant to corpses IS anti-woman.

 

[columbus]

I don't get pregnant, but here's what I think

Perhaps this has never happened to you.
When I was 20, my girlfriend and I created a child. We didn't mean to and it was a big crisis for both of us. But I considered myself every bit as pregnant as she was, even if biology gave us different roles in the gestation process. There was no doubt in my mind that the baby was mine. And that made me pregnant as much as she was.
Tom

 

[Spiderman]

For those who don't know, all the babies that were massacred in Bethlehem by Herod (which greek liturgy asserts as 14,000), are venerated Saints of the Catholic Church.

These babies were not Christian, not baptized, neither were they killed for any faith they professed, yet are canonized Saints.

This is plenty of evidence, even from a Catholic perspective, that God will welcome unbaptized babies into Heaven.

Yet the myth that the unbaptized are banned from Heaven still remains strangely prevalent in Catholicism, despite the Church never teaching such Dogma.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Perhaps this has never happened to you.
When I was 20, my girlfriend and I created a child. We didn't mean to and it was a big crisis for both of us. But I considered myself every bit as pregnant as she was, even if biology gave us different roles in the gestation process. There was no doubt in my mind that the baby was mine. And that made me pregnant as much as she was.
Tom

That has not happened, and if it does then I will cross that road when I come to it just like you had to. I would probably take care of that baby, since that's the right thing to do; but that baby would probably grow up and complain about the genes it had inherited. It'd probably ask me "What were you thinking?"

 

[Spiderman]

I just hate to see the pain of scrupulous traditional Catholic women who've had abortions or miscarriages, thinking that the soul of their child is forever in limbo on the edge of hell. I'd rather they have the joy of knowing they will enjoy eternity with them.

I apologize to God if I've taught something wrong, but it saddens me to see the gloom and scrupulosity Catholic Dogma causes so many people.

 

[columbus]

That has not happened, and if it does then I will cross that road when I come to it just like you had to.

I wish I had been better informed and sophisticated before hand. I am now a staunch supporter of Planned Parenthood. Because they reduce abortion the right way. With information, advice and access.
Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

While the Catholic Church has a defined doctrine on original sin, it has none on the eternal fate of unbaptized infants. God is not bound by any laws. He can let whoever he wants into heaven and he can baptize them.

There are canonized Saints who never experienced the sacrament of baptism conventionally. Their baptism was with their own blood.

God can find plenty of means to baptize those he know will die as infants, and he can easily and effortlessly provide all that is necessary to make them fit for heaven.

... yet the Church isn't certain enough to say that they will end up in Heaven. The Church leaves the possibility open that God might choose to torture infants forever.

... and then calls God "good".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is plenty of evidence, even from a Catholic perspective, that God will welcome unbaptized babies into Heaven.

So then why is the Church's official position that they don't know what the fate of an unbaptized infant would be?

Yet the myth that the unbaptized are banned from Heaven still remains strangely prevalent in Catholicism, despite the Church never teaching such Dogma.

The Church has also never taught that they do go to Heaven.

 

[columbus]

I would probably take care of that baby, since that's the right thing to do; but that baby would probably grow up and complain about the genes it had inherited. It'd probably ask me "What were you thinking?"

Depends on what you mean by "take care of".
I was born to a couple of college students. Bio mom thought that they were informally engaged. Sperm donor booked the minute he found out about me. Apparently he didn't want to marry some **** who got pregnant out of wedlock. He was married to somebody else before I was born.
My real parents adopted me. They are the best thing that ever happened to me. The reason that they happened was the Catholic Church giving Bio mom a choice other than raising a kid she was utterly unprepared for, supporting her through the pregnancy, and then matching me up with a couple who really wanted a kid.

But even then, there weren't enough kids for all the solid parents who wanted them, and would jump through hoops and write checks and submit to long interviews and prove that they had what it takes to parent a child. They had to pull strings to get more. But they wanted a big family. So they imported some from Canada.
Tom

 

[Spiderman]

So then why is the Church's official position that they don't know what the fate of an unbaptized infant would be?

The Church doesn't know everything, especially the fate of souls after death. It is true that the Church has canonized a small percent of people and declared that the person is in Heaven, but the Church doesn't declare for certain that anyone is in Hell. Hell could be empty. The Church doesn't know whether there is a single person there.

The Church is simply admitting she doesn't know one way or the other. The Magisteriium admits that there is a limit to it's understanding.

The Church has also never taught that they do go to Heaven.

Yes, because they were not baptized, the Church simply has a mystery it doesn't know how to solve. Sort of like, when a person dies in what the Church defines as mortal sin, the Church doesn't declare that we can know the person is damned.

Mortal sin is defined and then is at the same time a gray matter. Many people who commit mortal sin are not in a state of mortal sin, because of habits, mental health issues, and ignorance.

The Catechism says that the soul in mortal sin has turned it's back on God and charity is destroyed in their heart. However, many people that commit these "mortal sins" haven't turned their back on God and still have charity.

So the Church simply doesn't know what their fate is.