Is Abortion really an issue for Gay's and Lesbians?

[Reverend Rick]

This was my biggest problem with John Kerry. He said he was a Catholic. I have the utmost respect for Catholicism. Then he said he was pro-choice as well. He could have said he was raised Catholic and is pro choice and that would have flown with me, but that is not what he said.

In my opinion, if you are a good Catholic, you cannot be pro-choice as well.

 

[standing_alone]

Makes perfect sense. If my religious convictions are correct regarding social matters, then they should surface for all to see. The problem is that we usually begin to fight back before any emperical data is available. For example, it's nothing new that my Church has never been too fond of fatherless/motherless homes. 20-30 years back the opposition thought our view regarding the family unit was crazy. Now in 2007, the emperical data showing how much damage fatherless/motherless homes has caused is undeniable. Has the opposition submitted to the results? They just re-interpreted them and it made little difference.

Just know that having emperical data to support secular arguments doesn't gurantee anything.

Oh, totally; I agree that emperical data alone doesn't necessarily guarantee anything. That's what makes this so tough and such debates on hot button issues reoccuring. Everyone is going to continue to fight for what is in their particular interest (direct or not) and the laws may tip back and forth until controversy wanes. Perhaps as people continue to argue for their position, what is "right" will become law and eventually accepted. Maybe this is why certain issues that were once highly controversial (like desegregation) are almost no-brainers now days (most people think segregation is wrong); people found that desegregation was the right thing to do (though this may be be a bad example, for acceptance was nudged along by forced desegregation). As abortion has been a more modern issue, as both sides continue to argue, perhaps one of the sides will eventually become the no-brainer. I hope I'm kind of clear, I'm up way past my bedtime.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Oh, totally; I agree that emperical data alone doesn't necessarily guarantee anything. That's what makes this so tough and such debates on hot button issues reoccuring. Everyone is going to continue to fight for what is in their particular interest (direct or not) and the laws may tip back and forth until controversy wanes. Perhaps as people continue to argue for their position, what is "right" will become law and eventually accepted. Maybe this is why certain issues that were once highly controversial (like desegregation) are almost no-brainers now days (most people think segregation is wrong); people found that desegregation was the right thing to do (though this may be be a bad example, for acceptance was nudged along by forced desegregation). As abortion has been a more modern issue, as both sides continue to argue, perhaps one of the sides will eventually become the no-brainer. I hope I'm kind of clear, I'm up way past my bedtime.

Your making perfect sense to me.

 

[Quiddity]

This was my biggest problem with John Kerry. He said he was a Catholic. I have the utmost respect for Catholicism. Then he said he was pro-choice as well. He could have said he was raised Catholic and is pro choice and that would have flown with me, but that is not what he said.

In my opinion, if you are a good Catholic, you cannot be pro-choice as well.

You can be a liberal and be in good standing with the Catholic Church. But you CANNOT deviate from Church doctrine and be in good standing. John Kerry clearly deviated from Church doctrine and that is his call, but as soon as he took such a stance; he call himself a catholic, but it has no merit.

 

[standing_alone]

anecdotal evidence. We both know I didn't mean catagorically. Wouldn't you agree that the incredibly vast majority of abortions are given to liberals?

No, I wouldn't agree that the vast majority of abortions are given to liberals, not seeing any sort of study or data breaking down the self-identified political views of those who have gotten abortions. I would only go as far as saying that most of those who support a woman's right to choose tend to be liberal, but that doesn't necessarily mean that this lines up neatly with those who have gotten abortions. Any such data on the self-identified political views of those who have gotten abortions would be interesting, however. I wonder if there has been such a study.

 

[Quiddity]

Oh, totally; I agree that emperical data alone doesn't necessarily guarantee anything. That's what makes this so tough and such debates on hot button issues reoccuring. Everyone is going to continue to fight for what is in their particular interest (direct or not) and the laws may tip back and forth until controversy wanes. Perhaps as people continue to argue for their position, what is "right" will become law and eventually accepted. Maybe this is why certain issues that were once highly controversial (like desegregation) are almost no-brainers now days (most people think segregation is wrong); people found that desegregation was the right thing to do (though this may be be a bad example, for acceptance was nudged along by forced desegregation). As abortion has been a more modern issue, as both sides continue to argue, perhaps one of the sides will eventually become the no-brainer. I hope I'm kind of clear, I'm up way past my bedtime.

You have a good night.
BTW, you should see how long the Catholic Church fought against racism. It took hundreds of years before people even came to their senses.

 

[Comprehend]

No, I wouldn't agree that the vast majority of abortions are given to liberals, not seeing any sort of study or data breaking down the self-identified political views of those who have gotten abortions. I would only go as far as saying that most of those who support a woman's right to choose tend to be liberal, but that doesn't necessarily mean that this lines up neatly with those who have gotten abortions. Any such data on the self-identified political views of those who have gotten abortions would be interesting, however. I wonder if there has been such a study.

I doubt there has been a study but I would be interested to see it if it had as well.

Anyway, I would be completely shocked if it turned out that the large majority of abortions are not liberal.

You do understand that most conservatives believe abortion is murder right? I would have a tough time thinking many girls would do something they believe to be murder.

 

[Mike182]

what.....:angel2: It's true isn't it?

Conservatives aren't the ones aborting their babies, it's liberals.


I wonder what Darwin would say about that....:faint:

Comp, just what are you trying to say here?

i suspect you are right, less conservatives will have abortions than liberals, but reading your comment about Darwin and implying survival of the fittest, are you trying to say that conservatives are a superior breed than liberals?

 

[standing_alone]

I doubt there has been a study but I would be interested to see it if it had as well.

Anyway, I would be completely shocked if it turned out that the large majority of abortions are not liberal.

You do understand that most conservatives believe abortion is murder right? I would have a tough time thinking many girls would do something they believe to be murder.

Of course I understand that most conservatives look on abortion with disfavor. However, under certain circumstances, some people will act against their principles. Perhaps, under certain economic conditions or at the demands of a partner, someone may make a choice to get an abortion.

Going with my gut, I would tend to feel that the majority of those who decide to get an abortion are liberal. However, not seeing any sort of data or study on the self-identified political ideologies of people who get an abortion, I make this statement with no certainty and it is, for all effects, meaningless, as are your similar statements. Very well the majority of women who get abortions could be self-identified liberals, or maybe it's close to half and half, or, maybe even, a good number of these women are politically apathetic or don't identify with any political ideology. The thing is, we don't know.

These women who have made the choice to get an abortion have made a very difficult decision. We likely do not fully understand the circumstances involved that motivated them to make such a decision. Rather than reducing the issue of abortion to the typical conservative-liberal slap fest, we should make an effort to understand what situations and circumstances lead to a woman making such a choice (such as things, perhaps, like access to and cost of contraception), so as to deal with such circumstances in the hopes of more women not being put into the situation where they even have to make such a choice (taking that choice away, however; doesn't address such problems). As they have made a very difficult decision, whether we agree with it or not, I think these women deserve to not be berated by individuals attempting to take the moral high ground, or to be called murderers, or to have their difficult decision reduced to a means by which to make little quips about political ideologies we don't like (i.e. "liberals are killing themselves off"). Abortion is, after all, a complex and serious issue that directly affects the lives of many and indirectly affects the lives of all.

 

[Mathematician]

I am sure some conservatives have had abortions but the great majority I believe have been liberals.

Why do you exclude moderates and libertarians and statists and the non-political?

There's no evidence of what you claim.

This was going so well until just now. I'm sorry, they were not conservatives in my opinion.

So it's true that only two issues (abortion and gay marriage) determine whether one is conservative these days? A sad turn of events.

 

[Comprehend]

Comp, just what are you trying to say here?

i suspect you are right, less conservatives will have abortions than liberals, but reading your comment about Darwin and implying survival of the fittest, are you trying to say that conservatives are a superior breed than liberals?

I was just being funny with the Darwin portion, no offense intended. I know it is difficult to pick out humor sometimes when we can't see each other's faces...

 

[Comprehend]

Of course I understand that most conservatives look on abortion with disfavor. However, under certain circumstances, some people will act against their principles. Perhaps, under certain economic conditions or at the demands of a partner, someone may make a choice to get an abortion.

Unfortunately I agree. I wish nobody would sacrifice their principles...

Going with my gut, I would tend to feel that the majority of those who decide to get an abortion are liberal. However, not seeing any sort of data or study on the self-identified political ideologies of people who get an abortion, I make this statement with no certainty and it is, for all effects, meaningless, as are your similar statements. Very well the majority of women who get abortions could be self-identified liberals, or maybe it's close to half and half, or, maybe even, a good number of these women are politically apathetic or don't identify with any political ideology. The thing is, we don't know.

I guess one could look at it that way, but it is unreasonable to me. One side sees abortion as legitimate, the other sees it as murder. Take drinking alcohol for example, the general population sees drinking alcohol as something acceptable, LDS see it as a sin, one would think that the vast majority of alcohol drinkers are not LDS even though there are undoubtedly some LDS who drink.

These women who have made the choice to get an abortion have made a very difficult decision. We likely do not fully understand the circumstances involved that motivated them to make such a decision. Rather than reducing the issue of abortion to the typical conservative-liberal slap fest, we should make an effort to understand what situations and circumstances lead to a woman making such a choice (such as things, perhaps, like access to and cost of contraception), so as to deal with such circumstances in the hopes of more women not being put into the situation where they even have to make such a choice (taking that choice away, however; doesn't address such problems). As they have made a very difficult decision, whether we agree with it or not, I think these women deserve to not be berated by individuals attempting to take the moral high ground, or to be called murderers, or to have their difficult decision reduced to a means by which to make little quips about political ideologies we don't like (i.e. "liberals are killing themselves off"). Abortion is, after all, a complex and serious issue that directly affects the lives of many and indirectly affects the lives of all.

I didn't think I was reducing it to a "slap-fest" honestly I am amazed that anyone would argue that it isn't almost all liberals who get abortions. It wasn't intended as an insult, I thought everyone agreed that it was liberals who got the majority of abortions and so I was applying that premise to the question in the OP. If it is true that liberals get most of the abortions then it does affect their total population and therefore elections.

For those who see nothing wrong with getting an abortion, why would they be insulted when I say that they get abortions?

 

[Comprehend]

Why do you exclude moderates and libertarians and statists and the non-political?

There's no evidence of what you claim.

I can give you circumstantial evidence, most abortions take place in big cities, big cities are mostly liberal...

in this case I was talking about social liberals which would include those who have a liberal view on abortion. The word liberal wasn't invented for the democratic party you know. It has existed long before america did.

So it's true that only two issues (abortion and gay marriage) determine whether one is conservative these days? A sad turn of events.

somebody else said this, not me.

 

[Majikthise]

I'd like to know how many college girls get pregnant and have their rich conservative daddys pay for the abortion so it won't ruin the family name? Abortion aint cheap, and I see a lot of big families in the poorer neighborhoods of my city. The same poor some claim make up the majority of the liberal party.
Liberals aren't going to be any more prone to getting abortions than conservatives.
I believe it depends more on your religioun than your political affiliation.

 

[Mathematician]

The word liberal wasn't invented for the democratic party you know. It has existed long before america did.

I'm not a Democrat, so yes, I know.

most abortions take place in big cities, big cities are mostly liberal...

Again, most people are apolitical, and moderates and libertarians usually have an array of beliefs.

Most abortions happen in big cities because the poor aren't usually found in suburbs. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/04/AR2006050400820.html

 

[bflydad]

I was wondering if there were many pro life people in the Gay and Lesbian community? Perhaps they would like to adopt the unwanted children.

My understanding is it is very difficult for homosexuals to adopt, especially for men.

 

[Quiddity]

I'd like to know how many college girls get pregnant and have their rich conservative daddys pay for the abortion so it won't ruin the family name? Abortion aint cheap, and I see a lot of big families in the poorer neighborhoods of my city. The same poor some claim make up the majority of the liberal party.
Liberals aren't going to be any more prone to getting abortions than conservatives.
I believe it depends more on your religioun than your political affiliation.

Well then, it tends to be the more liberal theological minded movements that are ok with abotions. Rich daddys pay for abortions for reasons other then their religious inclinations.

 

[Ðanisty]

Well, this really is no different then what pro-lifers or most thiest do. Except when we do it, it labeled as "stop pushing your religion/faith on everybody". Isn't it odd how that works?

Well, it's not exactly the same Victor. One side is working to preserve a right we have and the other side is working to eliminate it. Plus, pro-choice isn't about pushing abortion on anyone. Probably about 90% of the people I talk to on a regular basis are pro-choice and I don't know anyone who would push someone to have an abortion. This debate about abortion really isn't about life...it's about freedom.

This was going so well until just now. I'm sorry, they were not conservatives in my opinion.

Why? There are so many other issues involved. They may be very conservative and would never have an abortion, but they aren't trying to make that decision for someone else. Is the definition of conservative a person who tries to make decisions for other people?

For those who see nothing wrong with getting an abortion, why would they be insulted when I say that they get abortions?

This is an assumption. I don't think anyone is insulted. I think they're just pointing out that you haven't provided any data. Even if you had, I'm pretty sure a conservative would either not admit to getting an abortion or not admit to being conservative...gotta save face and all.

 

[Comprehend]

ahem: somebody has done a little research and the results (and the election implications) are what I had reasoned out on my own. Maybe I should start writing for the Wall Street Journal...

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005277 (please see full article, it has a lot of statistics in it)


• Republicans have fewer abortions than their proportion of the population, Democrats have more than their proportion of the population. Democrats account for 30% more abortions than Republicans (49% vs. 35%).
• The more ideologically Democratic the voters are (self-identified liberals), the more abortions they have. The more ideologically Republican the voters are (self-identified conservatives), the fewer abortions they have.
This isn't particularly surprising given the core constituencies of both political parties. But translating percentages into numbers for the purpose of evaluating their impact on politics makes the importance of these numbers real. It's one thing to quote percentages and statistics, it's quite another to look at actual human beings. For example:
• There are 19,748,000 Democrats who are not with us today. (49.37 percent of 40 million).
• There are 13,900,000 Republican who are not with us today. (34.75 percent of 40 million).
• By comparison, then, the Democrats have lost 5,848,000 more voters than the Republicans have. These Missing Americans--and particularly the millions of Missing Voters--when compounded over time are of enormous political consequence:

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Another thing that's helpful to keep in mind is that not all people who believe that abortions should be legal believe that that is a choice anyone would or should want to pursue, least of all themselves.