Is AIDS a Punishment from God?

[LuisDantas]

No, I am just stating that it is not easy for me and that I am unkind to some at time, having people telling me that I must tolerate them because I am a Christian when on the contrary my faith command me separate from the Godless, Pagans and Heretics get me railed up.

The way I see it, there is no reason why it must be easy. In fact, I´m very hopeful you´ll think twice about your stance, for quite frankly it is rather immature.

Another thing that my faith commands me is to boldly explain the reason for my faith to whoever requires them of me, so "So you want to run away, is that it?" you wish Luchito, you wish.

When and how did you earn the right of creating nicknames for me anyway? Please show a modicum of respect.

 

[Imagist]

But there are such laws already, where do you live? The Pope could take people to court for the defamation that is been inflicted upon him, but he has longsuffering and does not. We on the other hand take a position of nock for nocks in most things, I participated in forum where people were only allow to participate in a relevant section of the forum. (How I miss Jude3)

Sorry, did you even read the post you quoted? Your response was completely unrelated.

Truth is a defense to defamation. The pope said things that will cause the deaths of thousands if not millions of people. It is not defamation to criticize him for that.

Furthermore, please point out a post that I made which was irrelevant to the topic of the forum.

Lastly, please stop using comma splices. If you actually have anything useful to say, it would be helpful if you said it in a readable manner.

 

[emiliano]

It seems you misunderstand my point. If "God" is omnipotent and has a plan, then we obviously don't have free will, because we'd have to adhere to his plan. But if we do have free will, then that means we can go against "God's" plan, as he does not control us. I was trying to point out that the two cannot happen at the same time. We cannot have free will and be forced to do someone's bidding at the same time.

Ok since you say that this is not off topic let try to see where we can go, mind you that I got an infraction for an off topic post and I may have restricted access only
Now the Salvation Plan, who is offered this plan? Or in other words who can be saved by this plan? Everybody that ever lived on this earth?

Well this is a ridiculous claim. How would you know? I was baptized Catholic, I went through my first communion, and even went through Confirmation.

There it w you were baptized. Had a first communion and were confirmed by your parents, right? In fact your parents tried to make a Catholic out of you, now tell what if God does not want you saved? You we are saved when God in His mercy will it so, in his great mercy God has provided humans with free will so as provide the non elect to choose to be saved, that is what I understand from reading Saint Augustine’s works. That is the Lord’s message say “Come to me all of you…… you know rest, don’t you

But then I began to question, which is something you must always do in order to truly learn. I realized how many holes and contradictions there were in the faith. I'd ask my priest, and my mother (who was very devout), but neither of them could give me any satisfying answers. So I just dropped it, decided to find my own path.

So you arrived to the conclusion that you were not a Catholic because they did not give you the answer that you wanted, that can be seen in more than one way. As I said: What if God does want you in His Kingdom? That is what I mean by “you were never a Catholic” your parent tried to make you one.

I never said he did. You seem to misinterpret what I say. I don't consider it "salvation" if I don't think we have anything to be saved from.

I think that you have problem with another characteristic of God, His sovereignty He has mercy on who he want, He is absolutely sovereign in His election.

I don't consider it to be free will if a) we have to follow his plan, or b) we are to burn in hell for eternity if we don't do his bidding. Not exactly free will, if you ask me. Which is why I don't believe in a personified "God"

Now consider that this title “Free Will” is not a scriptural word not in the sense that it has for us, like in free will gifts that the ancient Israelites collected and it mean voluntarily given, because one wants to give it. It is a bad choice of word when we applied to this concept that God gave free will, the elect don’t have free will, they surrender it and that is like in the case of Peter, Mathew the tax collect, Paul and many other saints, your will not mine type thing, a dear friend of mine in another forum and after a lengthy debate came with a better term of his own and called coerced will. If you are an elect, you will come to the saviour, if you are not you can choose to come to Him and be saved

Actually, it is part of the topic, as whether or not there is a "plan" is relevant to whether or not AIDS is a punishment.

I am glad that you think that it is on topic, the moderator. Who knows?

As I stated before, if "God" has a plan and it was planned for so-and-so to contract AIDS, then no, it's not a punishment to that person, as it is a part of the script. But if there isn't a plan, and we truly do have "free will" (I'll use the Christian definition for the sake of argument), then it is a punishment for not following his rules, and we are not living by a script.

That is what is irritating me; I said that AIDS is not a punishment from God that is the consequence of wrong actions and disobedience to God by other humans.

It seems you like to regard arguments against yours to be "irrelevant"

What else can I say when you address this to me and my position is that AIDS is not a punishment from God?

 

[Comicaze247]

Ok since you say that this is not off topic let try to see where we can go, mind you that I got an infraction for an off topic post and I may have restricted access only
Now the Salvation Plan, who is offered this plan? Or in other words who can be saved by this plan? Everybody that ever lived on this earth?

No one can really know the answer to that question, so why are you asking me? It is supposedly the "chosen people" but who can really know who they are? Before Jesus came along, it was the Jewish, and it was specifically stated that it was, according to my understanding. Now it's a bit unclear.

There it w you were baptized. Had a first communion and were confirmed by your parents, right? In fact your parents tried to make a Catholic out of you, now tell what if God does not want you saved?

Well then that means I have no free will. He's deciding for me. And if that's so, it wouldn't be my fault if I were to contract AIDS. He would have planned for it.

You we are saved when God in His mercy will it so, in his great mercy God has provided humans with free will so as provide the non elect to choose to be saved,

See, that doesn't make sense to me. "You are saved when he wills it so," but then we have free will? How can he make us follow his will, and then claim to have given us free will?

that is what I understand from reading Saint Augustine’s works. That is the Lord’s message say “Come to me all of you…… you know rest, don’t you[/quote]
It's been about 6 years since I've studied it, so it's a bit hazy.

So you arrived to the conclusion that you were not a Catholic because they did not give you the answer that you wanted, that can be seen in more than one way. As I said: What if God does want you in His Kingdom? That is what I mean by “you were never a Catholic” your parent tried to make you one.

It's not that I wasn't a Catholic. I was for a time. I was very devout. When my questions went unanswered (imho) I decided to not become Catholic anymore. I felt labeling myself as "Catholic" while no longer really believing in the faith would be an insult to those who are devout.

I think that you have problem with another characteristic of God, His sovereignty He has mercy on who he want, He is absolutely sovereign in His election.

Umm . . . how did I say he didn't? I merely argued, either he has a plan and forces it upon us, or he doesn't have a plan, and we have free will. So either he plans for us to get AIDS, or he punishes us when we don't follow his rules.

Now consider that this title “Free Will” is not a scriptural word not in the sense that it has for us, like in free will gifts that the ancient Israelites collected and it mean voluntarily given, because one wants to give it. It is a bad choice of word when we applied to this concept that God gave free will, the elect don’t have free will, they surrender it and that is like in the case of Peter, Mathew the tax collect, Paul and many other saints, your will not mine type thing, a dear friend of mine in another forum and after a lengthy debate came with a better term of his own and called coerced will. If you are an elect, you will come to the saviour, if you are not you can choose to come to Him and be saved

That makes absolutely no sense to me.

That is what is irritating me; I said that AIDS is not a punishment from God that is the consequence of wrong actions and disobedience to God by other humans.

. . . So . . . it's not a punishment . . . but "it's what you get for disobeying God"? How is that different from a punishment?

What else can I say when you address this to me and my position is that AIDS is not a punishment from God?

Read above.

 

[emiliano]

Comicaze, again I don’t have much time I am going to work soon, what you have problems with is that there are elects and scripture says that they were so before they were even born, they are elect to Salvation and to live in God’s kingdom, they don’t have free will per say, there are others, let call them non-elects, we all have what it has been termed free will meaning that we can choose A, B or C or not to choose any, you are possibly a non-elect that came or was brought (by your parents) they choose for you to be a Catholic it were your parent shoving Salvation down your throat, but that is not they way that it works for the non-elect at some point you used your free will.

 

[Comicaze247]

Comicaze, again I don’t have much time I am going to work soon, what you have problems with is that there are elects and scripture says that they were so before they were even born, they are elect to Salvation and to live in God’s kingdom, they don’t have free will per say, there are others, let call them non-elects, we all have what it has been termed free will meaning that we can choose A, B or C or not to choose any, you are possibly a non-elect that came or was brought (by your parents) they choose for you to be a Catholic it were your parent shoving Salvation down your throat, but that is not they way that it works for the non-elect at some point you used your free will.

1) I really don't recall being taught anything about "elects" and "non-elects". Mind quoting the scripture where it says that?
2) I did not mean that I didn't understand what you are trying to say. The whole concept is just ridiculous to me.
3) Please respond to this:

. . . So . . . it's not a punishment . . . but "it's what you get for disobeying God"? How is that different from a punishment?

I'd like to hear an answer.

 

[emiliano]

1) I really don't recall being taught anything about "elects" and "non-elects". Mind quoting the scripture where it says that?
2) I did not mean that I didn't understand what you are trying to say. The whole concept is just ridiculous to me.
3) Please respond to this:

I'd like to hear an answer.

Now let see, God is the creator of all there is, you are not able to fully understand God, but it is obvious that we were created to be different than other animals; we were endowed with a capacity to reason and have intelligence, all this has a purpose that I think is that of having a communion with our creator, in this communion with God we have received a manual that tell us how to live a good long life, this manual goes into the details even of nutrition, with dietary laws and counseling against excesses, lust and vices, plus He gave us a Moral Law. God has promised a kingdom to those that obey Him, this have double reward, a good healthy life and eternal bliss when this one is over, AIDS that has spread to a pandemic proportion is the consequence of disobeying God, a consequence and in some cases is the consequence of other’s evil acts, Augustine the most clear thinker stated that sins are their own punishment, he also wrote extensively on Penance, perhaps you could do well to read some of his works, he has a good take on what this badly termed Free Will concept is and what it can do.

"Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One [in whom] My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. ( Isa42:1)
For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me. ( Isa45:4)
I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, And from Judah an heir of My mountains; My elect shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there. ( Isa 65:9)
These are in the OT.
Now to the NT.
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Mat24:31)
And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? ( Luk18:7)
What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (Rom11:7)
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. ( 2Ti2:10)

God in His mercy provided ever for those that aren’t elects by given humans what was badly termed Free Will, so that those that is not of the elected (non-elect) can freely choose to believe and be saved. What a great God we have!

 

[Imagist]

This entire argument is rather silly. There are two different but very easy proofs, depending on your presupposed beliefs about god:

Theist proof
1. Children who can't possibly have done anything wrong are born with AIDS.
2. Since they didn't do anything wrong, it's not punishment, it's just god being a complete douche bag.

Atheist Proof
1. God doesn't exist.

Either way, it isn't a punishment from god.

 

[emiliano]

This is more than silly,

“This entire argument is rather silly. There are two different but very easy proofs, depending on your presupposed beliefs about god:”

Everybody knows (this include those lacking reasoning) that the existence of God has not been proved or disprove after centuries of debates, but saying that the fact that there are children born to HIV sufferers is prove of one position or the other is lunacy.
This takes the first price:

“God doesn't exist”

What an ingenious argument and the reason is that AIDS isn’t God punishment, therefore there is no God.
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "[There is] no God." They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good. (Psa14:1)
Children that are born with AIDS and will die from it are the consequence of their parent lack of control and not abstaining when infected with the virus. The children have done nothing, but who condemned them to live with an incurable disease? And again who is saying that it is punishment from God? Who is the dirt bag?

 

[Imagist]

Emiliano, you didn't even come close to understanding what my post was saying. But setting that aside:

According to Christianity, god created everything. This means that he created HIV and released it upon the world. This is the definition of a bioterrorist.

According to Christianity, god is all-powerful. This means that he could cure AIDS and any other deadly diseases, but chooses not to. This is the definition of criminal medical malpractice.

So I stand by my statement: if god exists, he's a bioterroristic, malpracticing douche bag.

Yes, the parents are to blame also, but that doesn't excuse god's actions.

 

[Imagist]

The fool has said in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.
(Psalm 14:1)

Anyone who says, "You fool!" will be in danger of the fires of hell. (Matthew 5:22)

I hope your little clever usage of Psalms makes you feel warm inside, because according to your bible, you may be feeling warm outside too.

 

[emiliano]

Emiliano, you didn't even come close to understanding what my post was saying. But setting that aside:

According to Christianity, god created everything. This means that he created HIV and released it upon the world. This is the definition of a bioterrorist.

According to Christianity, god is all-powerful. This means that he could cure AIDS and any other deadly diseases, but chooses not to. This is the definition of criminal medical malpractice.

So I stand by my statement: if god exists, he's a bioterroristic, malpracticing douche bag.

Yes, the parents are to blame also, but that doesn't excuse god's actions.

You have to make some research on the subject, in the creation that we see all around us there are many things that we don’t know their reason for been but they all have a purpose and science is working on getting an understanding of those reason, this disease exploded to an epidemic in relatively short time, there are other diseases that have mutated to endanger humanity in the same way, eg, Avian flu’ but scientist have made quick discoveries on how this virus came to the general population and great progress was quickly made, what about AIDS? We got condoms and we seem to have got stuck in it, do you have any thought on what the reasons for this may be?
Earlier on the piece it was found that infection transmission is more prevalent on men that have sex with men but these finding were dismissed because they are politically sensitive, is this an incurable disease or there is no a will to find a cure? The failures of the free condom’s campaign in Africa have been put down to lack of education, poverty and the fact that these are third world country. What is your take on this? For this reason I would like us to use NY as a study subject.
Most new HIV infections in New York City are still contracted by men through sex with other men, but the proportion of new infections being passed through heterosexual sex is rising sharply. In the first quarter of 2004, 22 percent of new diagnoses were among heterosexuals, up from 16 percent a year before. The disease is also becoming an increasing problem among women, according to a recent report by the Department of Health (in pdf format).
Like other issues where economic wellbeing plays a role, minorities suffer disproportionately. Blacks are three times as likely to be HIV positive than whites; Hispanics are twice as likely. People of color are also much less likely to know their status; six of ten black New Yorkers diagnosed with HIV find out their status on the same day they are diagnosed with full-blown AIDS. Once infected, people of color die at higher rates than white New Yorkers do, mainly because they have poorer access to medical care.
http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/issueoftheweek/20050328/200/1361
IMO For those in these predicaments the Pope strategy is the best. Abstinence work and cost no money at all. The pope is right the condom campaign is not effective. Abstinence is.

 

[emiliano]

Anyone who says, "You fool!" will be in danger of the fires of hell. (Matthew 5:22)

I hope your little clever usage of Psalms makes you feel warm inside, because according to your bible, you may be feeling warm outside too.

I don't understand any of this. What are trying to say?

 

[Sententia]

I don't understand any of this. What are trying to say?

Raca!!! Do you have a bible? Find Matthew. Read the verse. Then you will understand what he is trying to say and you can respond.

 

[emiliano]

Raca!!! Do you have a bible? Find Matthew. Read the verse. Then you will understand what he is trying to say and you can respond.

Ah, “but the part that I don’t understand is: “I hope your little clever usage of Psalms makes you feel warm inside, because according to your bible, you may be feeling warm outside too.”
Since you have taken Imagist’s advisor/interpreter roll you can tell me what he meant to say.
Psalm 14:1 is scripture and it say that the fool says there is no God to their own detriment and Mathew 5: 22 says “But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause [fn] shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.”
Is he my brother? Are you my brother? Since you are such an interpreter/student of scripture answer this even Imagist seems to know that he is not, I’ll give you one from the Master for you to chew on

Luk 8:21
But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."​

Nor you or Imagist is not my brothers, no way, you are Godless and this is what the Psalmist also said abut you guys: The ungodly [are] not so, But [are] like the chaff which the wind drives away.

 

[Imagist]

You have to make some research on the subject, in the creation that we see all around us there are many things that we don’t know their reason for been but they all have a purpose and science is working on getting an understanding of those reason, this disease exploded to an epidemic in relatively short time, there are other diseases that have mutated to endanger humanity in the same way, eg, Avian flu’ but scientist have made quick discoveries on how this virus came to the general population and great progress was quickly made, what about AIDS? We got condoms and we seem to have got stuck in it, do you have any thought on what the reasons for this may be?
Earlier on the piece it was found that infection transmission is more prevalent on men that have sex with men but these finding were dismissed because they are politically sensitive, is this an incurable disease or there is no a will to find a cure? The failures of the free condom’s campaign in Africa have been put down to lack of education, poverty and the fact that these are third world country. What is your take on this? For this reason I would like us to use NY as a study subject.
Most new HIV infections in New York City are still contracted by men through sex with other men, but the proportion of new infections being passed through heterosexual sex is rising sharply. In the first quarter of 2004, 22 percent of new diagnoses were among heterosexuals, up from 16 percent a year before. The disease is also becoming an increasing problem among women, according to a recent report by the Department of Health (in pdf format).
Like other issues where economic wellbeing plays a role, minorities suffer disproportionately. Blacks are three times as likely to be HIV positive than whites; Hispanics are twice as likely. People of color are also much less likely to know their status; six of ten black New Yorkers diagnosed with HIV find out their status on the same day they are diagnosed with full-blown AIDS. Once infected, people of color die at higher rates than white New Yorkers do, mainly because they have poorer access to medical care.
http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/issueoftheweek/20050328/200/1361
IMO For those in these predicaments the Pope strategy is the best. Abstinence work and cost no money at all. The pope is right the condom campaign is not effective. Abstinence is.

Let's put aside the abstinence vs. condoms issue, since that's already being discussed on another thread. What possible justification can god have for allowing a child to be born with AIDS?

 

[Imagist]

I don't understand any of this. What are trying to say?

I'm saying that if you call me a fool, you're in danger of the fires of hell.

 

[emiliano]

Let's put aside the abstinence vs. condoms issue, since that's already being discussed on another thread. What possible justification can god have for allowing a child to be born with AIDS?

Many of these children grow to be great people, adversities seem to produce better persons, and if these children are wrong by their parent (they decided to have them) whose fault is it? When you say allow to be born, are you suggesting that the just thing to do is to prevent their birth? Who should be eliminated? There are hopes for vaccinations, then the problem will be solve and humanity will come out of this in a better shape, that when I think that there is not a will to find a cure and vaccination, that is too good a business to loose it and research for cure and vaccination are under funded at the moment that this is due to the condom manufacturers lobby. God has a way of turning bad thing into good things and uses humans to achieve it purpose, this is allegorically express in:

Gen 1:28
Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth." ​

 

[emiliano]

I'm saying that if you call me a fool, you're in danger of the fires of hell.

The scripture that that you seem to referrer to is clear you are not my brother, the condemnation expressed is if one does it to a brother and I just cited scripture just as you and your interpreter did.

2Ti 3:16
All Scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
​

 

[Comicaze247]

*sigh* It's like talking to a wall. I don't know why I try anymore. Perhaps I'm a bit of a masochist . . .