Is Ameristan a Police State?

[Revoltingest]

About the title...it's not clickbait. But don't get all fired up
thinking I equate Ameristan to N Korea or Nazi Germany.
I don't claim that level of oppression.
It's more isolated, ie, imposed upon an unlucky segment
of the populace who run afoul of an element of government.

Some elements of a police state / fascism / oppression....
1) Coerced confessions.
2) Punishment without a trial.
3) Court system rigged against some.
4) Applying laws & punishment selectively.
5) Punishment out of proportion to the offense.
6) Laws designed for disparate effect, ie discriminatory.
7) Great discretionary power granted to law enforcement.

I can add to the list, but those are more than enuf
to start a discussion....perhaps too many.

Most people won't ever experience these problems, so
it's not a "police state" to the people who don't attract the
worst kind of the wrong kind of attention from government.
But some people do get caught in government's meat
grinder.

It's a big topic with many aspects & illustrative examples.
I'll start with #1.

Cops use coercive techniques to get confessions, even
from people who didn't commit the alleged crime.
How do they do this?
In the old days, they'd beat confessions out of civilians.
That's greatly subsided, & been replaced with far more
subtle & sophisticated techniques....which actually have
SCOTUS approval.

Some cop tools....
- Offer light sentences instead of severe ones in exchange
for confession.
- Lie about incriminating evidence.
- Interrogate in a manner that induces stress, eg, threats,
fatigue, memory corruption.
- Entrapment to creating new prosecutable offenses.

Some info about false confessions (no paywall)....
Speaking of Psychology: False confessions aren’t always what they seem
Videos for those who prefer....

 

[PureX]

But who is ultimately controlling the policemen? The politicians? They can't tie their own shoes without a bribe. So who's bribing them? And to what end?

 

[Audie]

Is there any non- police state?

 

[Revoltingest]

Breyer quote:
Regulation gone wild – Christmas lights are the next target of nanny state thinking

Is there any non- police state?

There are degrees of being a "police state". What's
important to me is to ask the question, & to recognize
aspects of a police state existing in our country.

Cops being legally able to use lies to coerce confessions
appears to be uncommon in western countries. But here,
the Supreme Court allows it.

Most people think that they'd never falsely confess to a
crime. But they've never been subject to such extreme
coercion.
Remember Otto Warmbier's imprisonment in N Korea?
He confessed to being an agent of US government.
One would think that soldiers would be tough, & never
crack under such torment. One would be wrong.

 

[Revoltingest]

But who is ultimately controlling the policemen? The politicians? They can't tie their own shoes without a bribe. So who's bribing them? And to what end?

If you believe that bribery is the problem, then let's
see an evidence based argument...in your own new
thread.
I don't want to have the thread be derailed to become
yet another anti-capitalist polemic.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

If you believe that bribery is the problem, then let's
see an evidence based argument. I don't want to
have the thread be derailed to become yet another
anti-capitalist polemic.

You want a sociological and historical answer?

 

[Revoltingest]

You want a sociological and historical answer?

I want to deal with the elements of a police state,
not the usual rant against capitalism.
Let's not lose focus....the thread is only hours old,
& I've hardly scratched the surface of police state
symptoms.
If you want to delve into the origins of authoritarianism,
please start a separate thread.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I want to deal with the elements of a police state.
Not his usual rant against capitalism.
Let's not lose focus....the thread is only hours old,
& I've hardly scratched the surface of police state
symptoms.
if you want to delve into the origins of authoritarianism,
please start a separate thread.

No. It is a combination of how your constitution works, the effect of the idea about American being special, the effect of some religious and cultural ideas of what wrong is and how to deal with.
The US is not authoritarian now, but it does have a specific value system, that results in what you describe.

 

[Secret Chief]

Could there be a connection with boosting and maintaining slave, sorry, prisoner numbers?

 

[Audie]

I want to deal with the elements of a police state,
not the usual rant against capitalism.
Let's not lose focus....the thread is only hours old,
& I've hardly scratched the surface of police state
symptoms.
If you want to delve into the origins of authoritarianism,
please start a separate thread.

Seriously.
Id like to sentence the next anti- capitalist
polemisistarian to six weeks with my uncle
who was red guard and still as fiery as ever.
I will arrange for a translator.

 

[Audie]

Could there be a connection with boosting and maintaining slave, sorry, prisoner numbers?

I think Louisiana has been cited for that.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Seriously.
Id like to sentence the next anti- capitalist
polemisistarian to six weeks with my uncle
who was red guard and still as fiery as ever.
I will arrange for a translator.

Yeah, if you are not to the right of the ultra right, you are a communist. Are you a communist, Audie?

 

[Revoltingest]

No. It is a combination of how your constitution works, the effect of the idea about American being special, the effect of some religious and cultural ideas of what wrong is and how to deal with.
The US is not authoritarian now, but it does have a specific value system, that results in what you describe.

Origins belong in a separate thread.
This is a big topic, & this thread deals with
aspects of being a police state.
Feel free to start your own thread, rather than
changing the focus of this one.

 

[anna.]

Yes, but not in a top-down way, at least not yet. In a federation of police states kind of way, but as you said above, there are degrees. We're not North Korea. But the militarization of the police, which increased rapidly after a huge amount of post-Iraq military surplus started being readily accessible to law enforcement to the point that even a small town might have its own armored vehicle. The more they battle-ready themselves, the more they want a battle.

I don't believe, and it's clear from your thread comments either you don't believe either, that such a complex and terrible issue can be reduced to a few bullet points, but you have to start somewhere. My few points would be: excessive militarization, such that it can be difficult to differentiate military from local police, white nationalist elements in the police force, pervasive corruption and code of silence which allows the police to operate outside the law regularly and with impunity, stop and frisk, no-knock searches for petty drug warrants and simply too much individual power in general.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Origins belong in a separate thread.
This is a big topic, & this thread deals with
aspects of being a police state.
Feel free to start your own thread, rather than
changing the focus of this one.

Okay, yes, the US has some elements of what can be considered a police state. We agree.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, but not in a top-down way....

Oh, I disagree. SCOTUS has specifically ruled that
coercion to get confessions is legal & constitutional.
Obama & Holder filed an amicus brief supporting
this agenda. It's problem with both Dems & Pubs.
Note that Trump called for violating rights of those
arrested at riots...

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Oh, I disagree. SCOTUS has specifically ruled that
coercion to get confessions is legal & constitutional.
Obama & Holder filed an amicus brief supporting
this agenda. It's problem with both Dems & Pubs.
Note that Trump called for violating rights of those
arrested at riots...

Yeah, we agree. End of thread.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah, we agree. End of thread.

For you perhaps.
I've only addressed point #1 in the OP so far.

Regarding #1, I highly recommend watching this
long video about how cops use psychological
torture, dishonesty, gaslighting, & threats to coerce
confessions from 4 innocent soldiers. On top of this
railroading, the cops had no interest in investigating
other better suspects (one of whom did it).
Same for prosecutors, who want only a win...justice
being largely irrelevant.

 

[anna.]

Oh, I disagree.

Was there anything you agreed with?

 

[Nimos]

It's a big topic with many aspects & illustrative examples.
I'll start with #1.

Cops use coercive techniques to get confessions, even
from people who didn't commit the alleged crime.
How do they do this?
In the old days, they'd beat confessions out of civilians.
That's greatly subsided, & been replaced with far more
subtle & sophisticated techniques....which actually have
SCOTUS approval.

Some cop tools....
- Offer light sentences instead of severe ones in exchange
for confession.
- Lie about incriminating evidence.
- Interrogate in a manner that induces stress, eg, threats,
fatigue, memory corruption.
- Entrapment to creating new prosecutable offenses.

I think a lot of it might come down to mixture of lack of education and how the system might work. I would assume that it looks good on a police department from a statistical point of view, if they are able to catch and close cases. And if the police officers especially the experienced ones are not "good" at their job and are more interested in this, rather than catching the real criminal they might not be extremely careful when it comes to figuring out whether or not they got the right person or not, but if they use the techniques that you talk about, it might mean that they can "solve" more cases and that will look good. I don't think this is the case all over the US, but I would assume that the lack of education plays a big part. If the new ones are trained by other more experienced officers which themselves, might not really know or follow the rules, these experiences are handed down to the new ones, which in many cases I assume will do as they are taught and the wheel keeps turning.

Found this, which is from a police officer worrying about it as well.

"We are very far behind. It's problematic that we have 18,000 different police departments and there are no national standards," said Haberfeld, who was previously a police lieutenant in Israel.

In the U.S., training to be a police officer, and carry a gun on behalf of the state, ranges from as few as 10 weeks to as much as 36 weeks. It's a far cry from the years of education required in most western European countries and others around the world.

Haberfeld, who has written several books on international police practices, standards and ethics, said two countries that stand out for their police training are Finland and Norway.

Officers in both countries must attend their nations' three-year police universities, and leave with degrees that are equivalent to a bachelor's.

Rune Glomseth, a professor at the Norwegian police university, Politihøgskolen, said policing is approached as an academic discipline. "It's the same quality of education that we have for teachers, nurses, and so on," said Glomseth, who was also a police officer for three decades.

The first year of police education in Norway is focused on the role of police in society and ethics. In the second year, students shadow training officers, before returning full time for a third year focused on investigations and completing a thesis paper.

Haberfeld said in many U.S. police departments, the stereotype is that officers in the prime of their careers try to avoid the burden of training rookies. What's left, she said, is aging officers who themselves haven't been through training in decades, young cops who haven't gotten enough experience, or she said, bad cops who get stuck with the assignment.

"Different departments have different incentives to sort of convince officers to do it, but the bottom line is that in many departments the worst officers are the ones training," Haberfeld said.