Is Ameristan a Police State?

[Revoltingest]

Well, a part of the problem is money in politics. Not the only one, though.

You're digressing.
But about money, there's a big problem directly related
to the police state. Cops & government get to keep
money they take from us for any reason. They can
suspect that it was obtained illegally....they can say
that it's suspicious to have so much....or they can
just take it without giving a reason. No due process
is required. No conviction or even accusation of
having committed a crime is needed.
And they get to spend it as they please. Civil forfeiture
abuse is rampant. They also take other assets, eg,
cars.
This is a simultaneous top-down & bottom-up problem.
From the top...Joe Biden was one of the main architects
of increasing this armed robbery by government. He
approved violating several portions of the Bill Of Rights,
eg, right to due process, right against unreasonable fines.
But from the bottom, cops are rewarded for confiscating
cash when they find it because they get to keep it. A very
perverse incentive, eh.

 

[F1fan]

About the title...it's not clickbait. But don't get all fired up
thinking I equate Ameristan to N Korea or Nazi Germany.
I don't claim that level of oppression.
It's more isolated, ie, imposed upon an unlucky segment
of the populace who run afoul of an element of government.

Some elements of a police state / fascism / oppression....
1) Coerced confessions.
2) Punishment without a trial.
3) Court system rigged against some.
4) Applying laws & punishment selectively.
5) Punishment out of proportion to the offense.
6) Laws designed for disparate effect, ie discriminatory.
7) Great discretionary power granted to law enforcement.

I can add to the list, but those are more than enuf
to start a discussion....perhaps too many.

Most people won't ever experience these problems, so
it's not a "police state" to the people who don't attract the
worst kind of the wrong kind of attention from government.
But some people do get caught in government's meat
grinder.

It's a big topic with many aspects & illustrative examples.
I'll start with #1.

Cops use coercive techniques to get confessions, even
from people who didn't commit the alleged crime.
How do they do this?
In the old days, they'd beat confessions out of civilians.
That's greatly subsided, & been replaced with far more
subtle & sophisticated techniques....which actually have
SCOTUS approval.

Some cop tools....
- Offer light sentences instead of severe ones in exchange
for confession.
- Lie about incriminating evidence.
- Interrogate in a manner that induces stress, eg, threats,
fatigue, memory corruption.
- Entrapment to creating new prosecutable offenses.

Some info about false confessions (no paywall)....
Speaking of Psychology: False confessions aren’t always what they seem
Videos for those who prefer....

This might include Critical Race Theory since we have evidence of policing being very harsh on communities of color.

I think this is a matter of privilege. I think it's a matter of culture, in that impoverished areas tend to have fewer opportunities for citizens, thus more crime as that is an alternative to economic opportunities. As they say, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

[PureX]

Yes, but not in a top-down way, at least not yet. In a federation of police states kind of way, but as you said above, there are degrees. We're not North Korea. But the militarization of the police, which increased rapidly after a huge amount of post-Iraq military surplus started being readily accessible to law enforcement to the point that even a small town might have its own armored vehicle. The more they battle-ready themselves, the more they want a battle.

I don't believe, and it's clear from your thread comments either you don't believe either, that such a complex and terrible issue can be reduced to a few bullet points, but you have to start somewhere. My few points would be: excessive militarization, such that it can be difficult to differentiate military from local police, white nationalist elements in the police force, pervasive corruption and code of silence which allows the police to operate outside the law regularly and with impunity, stop and frisk, no-knock searches for petty drug warrants and simply too much individual power in general.

The scary thing is that many Americans support these practices, as we have developed a real lust for maximum violence and retribution for any crime in this country. We even have citizens stockpiling guns and carrying them around in the hope of dispensing maximum "justice" to anyone that dares to infringe their rights in any way.

So far this police fascism is as much a bottom up phenomenon as it is from the top down. The militarization of police (and citizens) is mostly about money; profiting from the sale of military equipment to police forces. But once all this weaponry is there, the inclination to use it becomes far more likely. And who will be making that call? Corrupt politicians, is who. And who is pulling their strings? ... The people making all that money from the sale of military style weaponry.

 

[sun rise]

I see @wellwisher brought in charges that the right levels against the left while doing exactly what they accuse the left of doing demonstrating rank hypocrisy and worse.

That illustrates the problem that the OP brings up. The level of lying and hypocrisy in the USA today is so high that it aids and abets cops who lie and cover up for each other.

And we have the idiotic SCOTUS ruling that shields cops from their misdeeds, the conspiracy by cops to cover up the crimes of other cops and so forth.

 

[F1fan]

You're digressing.
But about money, there's a big problem directly related
to the police state. Cops & government get to keep
money they take from us for any reason. They can
suspect that it was obtained illegally....they can say
that it's suspicious to have so much....or they can
just take it without giving a reason. No due process
is required, & they get to spend it as they please.
Civil forfeiture abuse is rampant.
Note that Joe Biden was one of the architects of
increasing this armed robbery by government.

You brought this up before and I have seen a few videos about this issue. I agree with you that this is theft by the state. I heard cases of people carrying cash to buy a car or boat and being pulled over and the cash being confiscated on mere suspicion, not on evidence.

 

[We Never Know]

About the title...it's not clickbait. But don't get all fired up
thinking I equate Ameristan to N Korea or Nazi Germany.
I don't claim that level of oppression.
It's more isolated, ie, imposed upon an unlucky segment
of the populace who run afoul of an element of government.

Some elements of a police state / fascism / oppression....
1) Coerced confessions.
2) Punishment without a trial.
3) Court system rigged against some.
4) Applying laws & punishment selectively.
5) Punishment out of proportion to the offense.
6) Laws designed for disparate effect, ie discriminatory.
7) Great discretionary power granted to law enforcement.

I can add to the list, but those are more than enuf
to start a discussion....perhaps too many.

Most people won't ever experience these problems, so
it's not a "police state" to the people who don't attract the
worst kind of the wrong kind of attention from government.
But some people do get caught in government's meat
grinder.

It's a big topic with many aspects & illustrative examples.
I'll start with #1.

Cops use coercive techniques to get confessions, even
from people who didn't commit the alleged crime.
How do they do this?
In the old days, they'd beat confessions out of civilians.
That's greatly subsided, & been replaced with far more
subtle & sophisticated techniques....which actually have
SCOTUS approval.

Some cop tools....
- Offer light sentences instead of severe ones in exchange
for confession.
- Lie about incriminating evidence.
- Interrogate in a manner that induces stress, eg, threats,
fatigue, memory corruption.
- Entrapment to creating new prosecutable offenses.

Some info about false confessions (no paywall)....
Speaking of Psychology: False confessions aren’t always what they seem
Videos for those who prefer....

"3) Court system rigged against some.
4) Applying laws & punishment selectively."

Does being poor fall under either of those?
Its pretty obvious rich people get deals/breaks while poor people go to jail.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Some elements of a police state / fascism / oppression....
1) Coerced confessions.
2) Punishment without a trial.
3) Court system rigged against some.
4) Applying laws & punishment selectively.
5) Punishment out of proportion to the offense.
6) Laws designed for disparate effect, ie discriminatory.
7) Great discretionary power granted to law enforcement.

You really should make a web site about this. Let me know if you need to know how to get started, and I'll point you in the right direction.

 

[Revoltingest]

This might include Critical Race Theory since we have evidence of policing being very harsh on communities of color.

Yes. I favor exploring CRT, all the controversy
notwithstanding.
An even greater disparity than race arises in
wrongful police shootings. 95% of the victims are male.
There is also religious bias, class bias, professional
bias, age bias, language bias, etc, etc.

I think this is a matter of privilege. I think it's a matter of culture, in that impoverished areas tend to have fewer opportunities for citizens, thus more crime as that is an alternative to economic opportunities. As they say, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

And there is no greater privilege than being a cop,
judge, or politician. They all enjoy the privilege of
violating the law with impunity.

 

[Revoltingest]

You really should make a web site. Let me know if you need to know how to get started, and I'll point you in the right direction.

I'm too lazy.
But thanx!

BTW, there are many sites devoted to these topics.
Home
The Institute for Justice
https://www.cato.org/
Innocence Project - Help us put an end to wrongful convictions!
Audit The Audit <-- youtube.com
Lehto's Law <--- youtube.com
American Civil Liberties Union

 

[F1fan]

Could there be a connection with boosting and maintaining slave, sorry, prisoner numbers?

Private, for-profit prisons have a minimum occupation rate for them to break even, and as I have heard there has been efforts by local governments to keep people incarcerated to keep those prisons open. Plus there have been complaints about the conditions and safety of private prisons as they cut costs to increase profit. This illustrates the bad option this provides as a public service.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'm too lazy.
But thanx!

Don't be hard on yourself. My web page hasn't been touched in a year and looks like it was made by a six year old.

 

[Nakosis]

About the title...it's not clickbait. But don't get all fired up
thinking I equate Ameristan to N Korea or Nazi Germany.
I don't claim that level of oppression.
It's more isolated, ie, imposed upon an unlucky segment
of the populace who run afoul of an element of government.

Some elements of a police state / fascism / oppression....
1) Coerced confessions.
2) Punishment without a trial.
3) Court system rigged against some.
4) Applying laws & punishment selectively.
5) Punishment out of proportion to the offense.
6) Laws designed for disparate effect, ie discriminatory.
7) Great discretionary power granted to law enforcement.

I can add to the list, but those are more than enuf
to start a discussion....perhaps too many.

Most people won't ever experience these problems, so
it's not a "police state" to the people who don't attract the
worst kind of the wrong kind of attention from government.
But some people do get caught in government's meat
grinder.

It's a big topic with many aspects & illustrative examples.
I'll start with #1.

Cops use coercive techniques to get confessions, even
from people who didn't commit the alleged crime.
How do they do this?
In the old days, they'd beat confessions out of civilians.
That's greatly subsided, & been replaced with far more
subtle & sophisticated techniques....which actually have
SCOTUS approval.

Some cop tools....
- Offer light sentences instead of severe ones in exchange
for confession.
- Lie about incriminating evidence.
- Interrogate in a manner that induces stress, eg, threats,
fatigue, memory corruption.
- Entrapment to creating new prosecutable offenses.

Some info about false confessions (no paywall)....
Speaking of Psychology: False confessions aren’t always what they seem
Videos for those who prefer....

The problem I've seen is the comradery within the legal system. There is a lot of familiarity between the police, judges and prosecutors.

People tend to take the easier path so these three groups work together to streamline the work. It is much easier to deal with confessed criminals in the system. Everyone gets home in time for dinner.

It's easier to not ask too many question when you have a confession. So you threaten the individual with stiff punishment then offer a milder way out. No guarantee they will win the case so the milder sentence is the lessor of two evils. The system is less about justice and more about streamlining the process.

Non-criminals and violent criminals all get caught up in this streamlining. It is only the non-criminals which suffer slightly for the greater good of the legal system.

 

[Revoltingest]

"3) Court system rigged against some.
4) Applying laws & punishment selectively."

Does being poor fall under either of those?
Its pretty obvious rich people get deals/breaks while poor people go to jail.

Being poor is problematic in several ways....
- Inability to raise bail, resulting sometimes in
innocent people sitting in jail for a long time.
- Prejudice against them.
- Lack of education about their rights.

 

[PureX]

Private, for-profit prisons have a minimum occupation rate for them to break even, and as I have heard there has been efforts by local governments to keep people incarcerated to keep those prisons open. Plus there have been complaints about the conditions and safety of private prisons as they cut costs to increase profit. This illustrates the bad option this provides as a public service.

Yet it's an idea that is supported by a LOT of American citizens. Republicans in general are all for privatization regardless of the instance or the specific issues. They believe that 'for-profit' automatically means more efficient, and cheaper, and for them, that means 'better'. And when they are not better, most Americans are perfectly OK with prisons being a horrible, torturous, dehumanizing living hell. As far as they are concerned everyone in them deserves whatever happens to them.

So again, the abuse is being sponsored from the bottom up, AND the top down.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yet it's an idea that is supported by a LOT of American citizens. Republicans in general are all for privatization regardless of the instance or the specific issues. They believe that 'for-profit' automatically means better for everyone. And when they are not, most Americans are perfectly OK with prisons being a horrible, torturous, dehumanizing living hell. As far as they are concerned everyone in them deserves whatever happens to them.

So again, the abuse is being sponsored from the bottom up, AND the top down.

Please take your partisan polemics to your own thread.
Yes, prisons are bad. But both Dems & Pubs have
their hands in these conditions.

 

[Audie]

Mirth is a good addition to a thread.
You have a good natured sense of humor.
Some others don't.

An ideolog with a sense of humour, especially
the self depreciating sort, is like a contradiction
in incongruous oxymorons

 

[Kooky]

Yes, there are many. The police here in the UK do not even routinely carry guns. Though there always exists the threat of increased powers, and abuse thereof. Unlike the US, we do not have a written constitution, so we lack that level of protection from a potential tyrant in office. But for the moment, we are far from being a police state.

The UK police had undercover agents infiltrate perfectly legal political activist organizations, where agents worked for years to ingratiate themselves with activists to the point where some of them fake-married their pretend lovers and fathered actual for real children with them.

Undercover police had children with activists

Despite allegedly not being armed, the Met also infamously killed a Brazilian tourist during the kerfuffle of the Al Qaida bombings of the London metro.

Shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes - Wikipedia

As @Revoltingest correctly pointed out in the beginning, "police state" is a matter of degree. I would argue that the jury is still out on whether other Western police organizations are qualitatively different from the US, rather than simply being slightly less prone to the spectacularly newsworthy murder of civilians of color.

 

[The Hammer]

About the title...it's not clickbait. But don't get all fired up
thinking I equate Ameristan to N Korea or Nazi Germany.
I don't claim that level of oppression.
It's more isolated, ie, imposed upon an unlucky segment
of the populace who run afoul of an element of government.

Some elements of a police state / fascism / oppression....
1) Coerced confessions.
2) Punishment without a trial.
3) Court system rigged against some.
4) Applying laws & punishment selectively.
5) Punishment out of proportion to the offense.
6) Laws designed for disparate effect, ie discriminatory.
7) Great discretionary power granted to law enforcement.

I can add to the list, but those are more than enuf
to start a discussion....perhaps too many.

Most people won't ever experience these problems, so
it's not a "police state" to the people who don't attract the
worst kind of the wrong kind of attention from government.
But some people do get caught in government's meat
grinder.

It's a big topic with many aspects & illustrative examples.
I'll start with #1.

Cops use coercive techniques to get confessions, even
from people who didn't commit the alleged crime.
How do they do this?
In the old days, they'd beat confessions out of civilians.
That's greatly subsided, & been replaced with far more
subtle & sophisticated techniques....which actually have
SCOTUS approval.

Some cop tools....
- Offer light sentences instead of severe ones in exchange
for confession.
- Lie about incriminating evidence.
- Interrogate in a manner that induces stress, eg, threats,
fatigue, memory corruption.
- Entrapment to creating new prosecutable offenses.

Some info about false confessions (no paywall)....
Speaking of Psychology: False confessions aren’t always what they seem
Videos for those who prefer....

Legally accepted bribery in the form of pay-to-play Justice System is one issue.

There is the lack of unbiased third party review of incidents of malfeasance too, ie IA investigations, as opposed to someone not in the justice system already.

Military did this with prosecuting and investigating sexual assault allegations. You can't get an answer or a good fix to a problem, when the people involved in addressing it, have a stake in how it plays out and it's outcome affects them.

Edit: America is not a police state at the moment. But it has elements of it, and it is getting worse.

 

[Secret Chief]

Private, for-profit prisons have a minimum occupation rate for them to break even, and as I have heard there has been efforts by local governments to keep people incarcerated to keep those prisons open. Plus there have been complaints about the conditions and safety of private prisons as they cut costs to increase profit. This illustrates the bad option this provides as a public service.

There seems to have been an appalling increase in levels of criminality commencing in the 80s.
Or maybe just better police work.

"The United States has ... the highest incarceration rate in the world (655 per 100,000 population in 2016)."
- Incarceration in the United States - Wikipedia

 

[Audie]

You brought this up before and I have seen a few videos about this issue. I agree with you that this is theft by the state. I heard cases of people carrying cash to buy a car or boat and being pulled over and the cash being confiscated on mere suspicion, not on evidence.

She was returning from SE Asia. I wondered
why she was not with the other passengers.

Customs found a bag of dark brown balls of some organic material. And several thousand in new American 100 dollar bills.

She said she' d gone home coz father in hospital, her family is very poor, her credit cards
might not work there, so she took enough to
be sure she could cover any expenses.

The drugs? Smell it, taste it. Its chocolate
Mom made from the tree in their yard.

They let her go but she expected to lose the money.