Is Ameristan a Police State?

[Revoltingest]

Can't forget California’s dildo head.

Even automation can have bias programmed in.

 

[Revoltingest]

Only an American could believe that the US is on the brink of being a country based on the social ownership of the means of production.

That is a dubious point to make elsewhere.

 

[icehorse]

About the title...it's not clickbait. But don't get all fired up
thinking I equate Ameristan to N Korea or Nazi Germany.
I don't claim that level of oppression.
It's more isolated, ie, imposed upon an unlucky segment
of the populace who run afoul of an element of government.

Police malfeasance is certainly an issue. I don't think I'd put it in my top 20 list of issues in the US though.

 

[Secret Chief]

That is a dubious point to make elsewhere.

Hey, did you ask @KenS to make his point elsewhere?

 

[Revoltingest]

Police malfeasance is certainly an issue. I don't think I'd put it in my top 20 list of issues in the US though.

Exactly.
It's an issue slow to go away precisely
because so few people care about it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hey, did you ask @KenS to make his point elsewhere?

So you now want to make the thread about unequal
enforcement of staying on topic, eh. I had no need,
since his post was brief, & he didn't continue with it.
I contrast that with others who are more persistent,
& need to hear the message repeatedly.
If you or he want to make it about socialism vs
capitalism, I request starting a new thread.

 

[PureX]

I agree that many Ameristans approve of this type of "law & order".
They're trained by TV. They should instead be spending more
time on youtube watching auditor channels.

They weren't "trained by TV'. They were baited by a profit-making commercial enterprise that catered to their basest instincts to make a lot of money. "Hollywood" is a business conglomerate that has basically only one goal: to take as much money as possible away from everyone else. And to fulfill that goal it was willing to play up to whatever social proclivities in us that best enabled it's goal of taking our money. And it turned out that playing to our sense of outrage and self-righteousness and desire for imagined power, and vengeance, got us to part with our money most easily. So the "entertainment" conglomerate started feeding us what we apparently liked: violent vengeance pretending to be "ultimate justice". And we ate that crap up like starving kittens. Because the truth is we really DO like it. It makes us feel righteous, and superior, and powerful. Just as fascism in any of it's guises make the fascists practicing it feel righteous, superior, and powerful. These are a heady combination of feelings, delusional or not. And we Americans have not even achieved the first step yet in freeing ourselves from our addiction to these feelings. That is the step of recognizing that we are addicted to them, and recognizing that it is going to destroy us, and everything we love if we don't stop engaging in it. If we don't atop supporting and engaging in fascist methods and tendencies.

 

[Orbit]

About the title...it's not clickbait. But don't get all fired up
thinking I equate Ameristan to N Korea or Nazi Germany.
I don't claim that level of oppression.
It's more isolated, ie, imposed upon an unlucky segment
of the populace who run afoul of an element of government.

Some elements of a police state / fascism / oppression....
1) Coerced confessions.
2) Punishment without a trial.
3) Court system rigged against some.
4) Applying laws & punishment selectively.
5) Punishment out of proportion to the offense.
6) Laws designed for disparate effect, ie discriminatory.
7) Great discretionary power granted to law enforcement.

I can add to the list, but those are more than enuf
to start a discussion....perhaps too many.

Most people won't ever experience these problems, so
it's not a "police state" to the people who don't attract the
worst kind of the wrong kind of attention from government.
But some people do get caught in government's meat
grinder.

It's a big topic with many aspects & illustrative examples.
I'll start with #1.

Cops use coercive techniques to get confessions, even
from people who didn't commit the alleged crime.
How do they do this?
In the old days, they'd beat confessions out of civilians.
That's greatly subsided, & been replaced with far more
subtle & sophisticated techniques....which actually have
SCOTUS approval.

Some cop tools....
- Offer light sentences instead of severe ones in exchange
for confession.
- Lie about incriminating evidence.
- Interrogate in a manner that induces stress, eg, threats,
fatigue, memory corruption.
- Entrapment to creating new prosecutable offenses.

Some info about false confessions (no paywall)....
Speaking of Psychology: False confessions aren’t always what they seem
Videos for those who prefer....

I haven't read all five pages of this thread, so apologies if this re-states what has already been covered. The features of "police state" are indeed present, especially for those marginalized in society. There are incentives for police abuses embedded in the system: slave labor in prisons benefiting corporations, asset forfeiture that directly benefits police budgets, and a quota system for convictions (makes it profitable to create crime, for example with entrapment). On the individual level, and I see this, as a college professor who supervises Criminal Justice majors (among others), many (not all) people with authoritarian personalities are drawn to the profession, which combined with the culture of impunity that exists in law enforcement, tends to exacerbate, or at least facilitate a corrupt system.

 

[Revoltingest]

They weren't "trained by TV'. They were baited by a profit-making...

You're off track again.

Here's an interesting case, wherein a cop gives an
unlawful order (requiring ID of an innocent passenger
in a car). Passenger refuses, as is his right. Cop
threatens to arrest him for resisting arrest.
Notice how the arrest is predicated not on anything
the man has done, but upon the pretext that he will
resist arrest.
That's just the tip of the iceberg in these cops'
mis-statement of the law, & attempts to coerce
compliance with unlawful orders. The video
provides full analysis & case law.

 

[Revoltingest]

I haven't read all five pages of this thread, so apologies if this re-states what has already been covered. The features of "police state" are indeed present, especially for those marginalized in society. There are incentives for police abuses embedded in the system: slave labor in prisons benefiting corporations, asset forfeiture that directly benefits police budgets, and a quota system for convictions (makes it profitable to create crime, for example with entrapment). On the individual level, and I see this, as a college professor who supervises Criminal Justice majors (among others), many (not all) people with authoritarian personalities are drawn to the profession, which combined with the culture of impunity that exists in law enforcement, tends to exacerbate, or at least facilitate a corrupt system.

Let's not make this thread about profit. There have been
multiple attempts to steer it in the socialism v capitalism
direction, & about partisan politics. I require avoiding this.
You're welcome to start your own thread about this topic.

 

[Orbit]

Let's not make this thread about profit. There have been
multiple attempts to steer it in the socialism v capitalism
direction, & about partisan politics. I require avoiding this.
You're welcome to start your own thread about this topic.

If it's not about police bloating their own budgets, what do YOU think it's about?

 

[Revoltingest]

If it's not about police bloating their own budgets, what do YOU think it's about?

Some here have tried to make it about private company
profit. That is off topic. However, civil forfeiture abuse by
cops isn't about profit...it's about theft of property for their
department & personal gain. No business is involved.

Cops are supposedly trained to de-escalate situation,
but clearly this is not wide spread or very effective.
Cops routinely take minor infractions as license to
escalate things to violence. This strongly suggests
that they're actually trained to do this by their
department &/or by their fellows, ie, cop culture.
People in trouble with mental issues are most
at risk & vulnerable to such abuse.

 

[Revoltingest]

If it's not about police bloating their own budgets, what do YOU think it's about?

Cops stealing money isn't about profit for privately owned
businesses. This is government enabling cops to take
money & assets for cops & government itself.
Please stop trying to make this thread about the underlying
origins of the police state. It is specifically about the
characteristics that comport with a police state.

If you & the others want to blame socialism or profit by
business, please start your own thread. Working hard
here to avoid derailment....work with me on this.
I don't want to have to make threads in restricted forums
just to focus upon this issue.

 

[icehorse]

Exactly.
It's an issue slow to go away precisely
because so few people care about it.

I'd say that if it's slow to go away, it's more because it's actual impact on society isn't that great. I'm not dismissing it, but we have bigger fish to fry.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'd say that if it's slow to go away, it's more because it's actual impact on society isn't that great. I'm not dismissing it, but we have bigger fish to fry.

Loss of liberty when it affects a few will go unnoticed
by the many....unless race is involved. If you care
so little about it, why care to be so vocal about how
little you care?

 

[PureX]

You're off track again.

Sure. The moment capitalist greed becomes the fuel driving a lot of this fascist behavior, I'm "off track".

Sorry, but it is what it is.

Here's an interesting case, wherein a cop gives an
unlawful order (requiring ID of an innocent passenger
in a car). Passenger refuses, as is his right. Cop
threatens to arrest him for resisting arrest.
Notice how the arrest is predicated not on anything
the man has done, but upon the pretext that he will
resist arrest.

That and the cop presumes that to resist his command is to warrant an arrest. "X = X". That's fascism in a nutshell: the idea that the dictates of the "regime" supersede all else, including the desires, rights, or well-being of the 'subject' being dictated to. It is the refusal to comply that almost always leads to the abuse and killing of citizens by cops. They are trained members of a fascist regime. They have been taught, and they believe that to resist their dictates (the dictates of the 'regime') automatically warrants forced compliance (often by violence or some other abuse of our rights). It is the heart and soul of the problem. And yet most Americans can't see it for what it is. And therefor can't understand that it the problem.

That's just the tip of the iceberg in these cops'
mis-statement of the law, & attempts to coerce
compliance with unlawful orders. The video
provides full analysis & case law.

I have seen training videos teaching cops that their first and most important priority when they come 'on scene' is to "get control of the scene by whatever means is necessary". And by "control", they mean compliance. And it is exactly this ideal of enforced compliance that is fundamentally fascist in nature, and that leads directly to the abuses that follow from imposing it.

I have noticed that cops in Britain do not employ this prime directive of compliance by any means. They are OK with non-compliance so long as everyone's safety is being safeguarded. Physical well-being is their prime directive, and they will allow compliance to be a lesser issue. They are surprisingly good at de-escalating confrontational encounters simply by NOT demanding compliance when they come on scene, but by ensuring everyone's physical safety, first and foremost; including any potential non-compliant combatant. When people understand that the police are there to keep them safe, not to judge or punish, they tend to BE more compliant. Or at least to be less combative. Whereas our police almost immediately put on a "judge and comply/punish" attitude the moment they roll up.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sure. The moment capitalist greed becomes

Please stop this.
Start your own thread.
Don't derail mine with your ubiquitous anti-capitalist rants.

From RF Policies (underlining added)...
"The ReligiousForums.com staff has the unlimited right to edit, delete, split, merge, move or make any other changes to threads and posts that violate Religious Forums rules, cause confusion, are off topic, or warrant a thread of their own. The author might or might not be notified of changes."

 

[Orbit]

Cops stealing money isn't about profit for privately owned
businesses. This is government enabling cops to take
money & assets for cops & government itself.
Please stop trying to make this thread about the underlying
origins of the police state. It is specifically about the
characteristics that comport with a police state.

If you & the others want to blame socialism or profit by
business, please start your own thread. Working hard
here to avoid derailment....work with me on this.
I don't want to have to make threads in restricted forums
just to focus upon this issue.

I didn't mention capitalism or socialism in my post. I simply stated facts. When you become averse to facts it suggests you really aren't trying to understand the phenomenon you're posting about. If truly exploring police malfeasance requires another thread, I'm at a loss to even understand what you expect from this thread. There is a problem with police corruption, yes. What else is there to say about it? Police. Corrupt. Check.

 

[Secret Chief]

So you now want to make the thread about unequal
enforcement of staying on topic, eh. I had no need,
since his post was brief, & he didn't continue with it.
I contrast that with others who are more persistent,
& need to hear the message repeatedly.
If you or he want to make it about socialism vs
capitalism, I request starting a new thread.

No, I just felt at liberty to post a response to another post.

 

[Quetzal]

Cops use coercive techniques to get confessions, even
from people who didn't commit the alleged crime.
How do they do this?
In the old days, they'd beat confessions out of civilians.
That's greatly subsided, & been replaced with far more
subtle & sophisticated techniques....which actually have
SCOTUS approval.

Some cop tools....
- Offer light sentences instead of severe ones in exchange
for confession.
- Lie about incriminating evidence.
- Interrogate in a manner that induces stress, eg, threats,
fatigue, memory corruption.
- Entrapment to creating new prosecutable offenses.

The Mrs and I like to watch true crime documentaries. This is almost always a factor during the story. It's disgusting and if I am even being questioned by the police, I will only answer with a lawyer present.