Is Ameristan a Police State?

[Revoltingest]

Was there anything you agreed with?

I agree with the following....

....as you said above, there are degrees. We're not North Korea. But the militarization of the police, which increased rapidly after a huge amount of post-Iraq military surplus started being readily accessible to law enforcement to the point that even a small town might have its own armored vehicle. The more they battle-ready themselves, the more they want a battle.
:
My few points would be: excessive militarization, such that it can be difficult to differentiate military from local police, white nationalist elements in the police force, pervasive corruption and code of silence which allows the police to operate outside the law regularly and with impunity, stop and frisk, no-knock searches for petty drug warrants and simply too much individual power in general.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Is there any non- police state?

Yes, there are many. The police here in the UK do not even routinely carry guns. Though there always exists the threat of increased powers, and abuse thereof. Unlike the US, we do not have a written constitution, so we lack that level of protection from a potential tyrant in office. But for the moment, we are far from being a police state.

 

[Audie]

Yes, there are many. The police here in the UK do not even routinely carry guns. Though there always exists the threat of increased powers, and abuse thereof.

None of the features described above?
Only a threat, or possibility?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Is there any non- police state?

Depends on your political view.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

None of the features described above?
Only a threat, or possibility?

Some of the European states might get close.

 

[RestlessSoul]

None of the features described above?
Only a threat, or possibility?

Yeah, the threat is always there. See my edit to my original comment.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think a lot of it might come down to mixture of lack of education and how the system might work.

I agree that cops are woefully ignorant of constitutional rights.
And that what little training they get is very dysfunctional.

I would assume that it looks good on a police department from a statistical point of view, if they are able to catch and close cases. And if the police officers especially the experienced ones are not "good" at their job and are more interested in this, rather than catching the real criminal they might not be extremely careful when it comes to figuring out whether or not they got the right person or not, but if they use the techniques that you talk about, it might mean that they can "solve" more cases and that will look good.

Indeed, cops & prosecutors have an incentive to
arrest, convict, & punish someone...anyone.

I don't think this is the case all over the US.....

Where in the US is the system different?
I'm seeing the same problems in all states.
Note that federal law & SCOTUS rulings
apply everywhere.

...... but I would assume that the lack of education plays a big part. If the new ones are trained by other more experienced officers which themselves, might not really know or follow the rules, these experiences are handed down to the new ones, which in many cases I assume will do as they are taught and the wheel keeps turning.

Found this, which is from a police officer worrying about it as well.

"We are very far behind. It's problematic that we have 18,000 different police departments and there are no national standards," said Haberfeld, who was previously a police lieutenant in Israel.

In the U.S., training to be a police officer, and carry a gun on behalf of the state, ranges from as few as 10 weeks to as much as 36 weeks. It's a far cry from the years of education required in most western European countries and others around the world.

Haberfeld, who has written several books on international police practices, standards and ethics, said two countries that stand out for their police training are Finland and Norway.

Officers in both countries must attend their nations' three-year police universities, and leave with degrees that are equivalent to a bachelor's.

Rune Glomseth, a professor at the Norwegian police university, Politihøgskolen, said policing is approached as an academic discipline. "It's the same quality of education that we have for teachers, nurses, and so on," said Glomseth, who was also a police officer for three decades.

The first year of police education in Norway is focused on the role of police in society and ethics. In the second year, students shadow training officers, before returning full time for a third year focused on investigations and completing a thesis paper.

Haberfeld said in many U.S. police departments, the stereotype is that officers in the prime of their careers try to avoid the burden of training rookies. What's left, she said, is aging officers who themselves haven't been through training in decades, young cops who haven't gotten enough experience, or she said, bad cops who get stuck with the assignment.

"Different departments have different incentives to sort of convince officers to do it, but the bottom line is that in many departments the worst officers are the ones training," Haberfeld said.

Yes, standards for police here are so low that it's
harder to become a cosmetologist than a cop.
And once they become a cop, they can exhibit massive incompetence, & commit many crimes with impunity.

 

[wellwisher]

One good example of the Police State at the highest level was the Russian Collusion conspiracy theory that the top level Democrats ran in 2016 and beyond. That conspiracy theory would be proven false, but while the lie was hot, it was used to illegally spy on an opposition campaign in a style worse than Nixon. It was also used as a pretense to deprive people of their rights. It was used to impeach a president without first hand evidence. It was even used to raid homes and send some people to jail like props in their conspiracy theory play. In the end, none of the main characters within the police state were punished since the criminals ran the roost and covered for each other. This is still being investigated by Durham, but in a police state the bad guys can intimidate witnesses, hide evidence, so they will not be held accountable.

Consider Roger Stone, was incriminated by the Russian collusion conspiracy theory. Whether you like the guy or not, being railroaded based on a conspiracy theory, that would eventually be debunked, is the typical criminal behavior of a police state. They act on their own false claims to destroy their enemies. Bad spirit politics is one thing but using the power of government is another thing all together.

Who called those shots and why are they not in jail? This is bad for all of us. How can someone be guilty of aiding an imaginary crime and then get punished for it? You need a police state in place. General Flynn is another who was brought on purgury charges, to leverage him to give a false testimony against Trump that would favor of the police state's conspiracy theory. Again this injustice was all based on an imaginary conspiracy theory that was given all the power of the state. Trump was fortunate to have better lawyers than the crooks, who attempted this coup using the power of the swamp based police state.

A police state does not start at the bottom, with police, but rather it starts at the top and works it way down to the partisan police. It is not coincidence the places where minorities protested the most last summer were Democrats controlled police city-states. They then blame others via other new conspiracy theories;" it was the fault of the businesses that were looted". We judge a tree by the fruit it bears.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Some of the European states might get close.

Spain took some time to evolve from a police state under Franco, into the relatively liberal democracy it is now. In the 1980s, the Guardia Civil certainly behaved like an armed militia, and in some regions - Catalonia and the Basque country for example - it occasionally acted like an army of occupation. I had some run ins with the Guardia in the 80s; scary guys.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Spain took some time to evolve from a police state under Franco, into the relatively liberal democracy it is now. In the 1980s, the Guardia Civil certainly behaved like an armed militia, and in some regions - Catalonia and the Basque country for example - it occasionally acted like an army of occupation. I had some run ins with the Guardia in the 80s; scary guys.

Well, in Denmark is more low key, but it is there in some cases.

 

[anna.]

I agree with the following....

Okay good. I didn't want to think I'd wasted my time writing a reply that meant nothing, but I was prepared for it anyway.

On your point of disagreement, I think degrees can be applied here as well. I'm open to what you're saying but it seems to me a top-down police state would be flexing a national police force or a federal national guard directed by the president to control the population rather than state national guard answering to 50 different governors. Only the DC guard answers directly to the president. And right now, posse comitatus prevents this from happening. Until it doesn't, I don't know how you can designate the US a top-down police state.

I'm not closed to SC decisions having that kind of authority, but TX just showed us all how to go around the SC, and I see the police state coming from the executive branch first and foremost. Of course after the SC is adequately stacked in favor of an authoritarian state and is no more than a puppet for the executive branch...

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Okay good. I didn't want to think I'd wasted my time writing a reply that meant nothing, but I was prepared for it anyway.

On your point of disagreement, I think degrees can be applied here as well. I'm open to what you're saying but it seems to me a top-down police state would be flexing a national police force or a federal national guard directed by the federal government to control the population rather than state national guard answering to 50 different governors. Only the DC guard answers directly to the president. And right now, posse comitatus prevents this from happening. Until it does, I don't know how you can designate the US a top-down police state.

I'm not closed to SC decisions having that kind of authority, TX just showed us all how to go around he SC, but I see the police state coming from the executive branch first and foremost. Of course after the SC is adequately stacked in favor of an authoritarian state and is no more than a puppet for the executive branch...

Well, it can be structural and don't require a top down approach.

 

[anna.]

Well, it can be structural and don't require a top down approach.

Yes it can be structural, agreed.

 

[Revoltingest]

Okay good. I didn't want to think I'd wasted my time writing a reply that meant nothing, but I was prepared for it anyway.

Usually I'm just lazy. But today I'm busy
with many things competing for my attention.
So agreement took a backseat to differences.
That's my excuse for not giving you the full
response you deserved.
Better late than never, eh.

On your point of disagreement, I think degrees can be applied here as well. I'm open to what you're saying but it seems to me a top-down police state would be flexing a national police force or a federal national guard directed by the president to control the population rather than state national guard answering to 50 different governors. Only the DC guard answers directly to the president. And right now, posse comitatus prevents this from happening. Until it doesn't, I don't know how you can designate the US a top-down police state.

I'm not closed to SC decisions having that kind of authority, but TX just showed us all how to go around the SC, and I see the police state coming from the executive branch first and foremost. Of course after the SC is adequately stacked in favor of an authoritarian state and is no more than a puppet for the executive branch...

Agree about degree.
And it varies with administrations.
Clinton, Obama, & Trump were particularly
memorable bad examples regarding liberty.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, it can be structural and don't require a top down approach.

The problems are myriad in origin & manifestation.
They infest from the top down, from the bottom up,
& in-between in all directions. IMO.

 

[PureX]

If you believe that bribery is the problem, then let's
see an evidence based argument...in your own new
thread.
I don't want to have the thread be derailed to become
yet another anti-capitalist polemic.

The fact that you would even ask proves that you will accept no amount or type of evidence, as there is literally a mountain of it at this point. Legalized bribery is still bribery, whether it's being called campaign contributions, or it's hiring spouses and family members for do-nothing jobs, or it's paying huge salaries to politicians after leaving office, or it's paying them obscene amounts to give "motivational talks" or it's paying for vacations for politicians and their families to attend a "conference" or it's some other method of transferring money to them in exchange for legislative favors. And it has completely taken over the motive of politics in this country.

 

[Revoltingest]

The fact that you would even ask proves that you will accept no....

Nothing good ever starts out thus.

Start your own thread if you want to explore origins.
This thread is about signs of a police state.
Do you know how to start a thread?
It's easy. Staff can help.

 

[Audie]

The fact that you would even ask proves that you will accept no amount or type of evidence,

Is this sposed to be in the funny insult
thread?

 

[Revoltingest]

Is this sposed to be in the funny insult
thread?

Mirth is a good addition to a thread.
You have a good natured sense of humor.
Some others don't.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Is this sposed to be in the funny insult
thread?

Well, a part of the problem is money in politics. Not the only one, though.