Is atheism a belief?

[Dawnofhope]

Do you believe in ESP? How can you tell I don't love atheists? I'm commanded to love them!

If a man consumes alcohol to excess, beats his wife and neglects his children, yet claims to love his God and family, I would question that claim.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe in an un-involved God which is everything and everyforce together. Ergo, I do not believe in an involved interested God. Ergo I am at least a Non-Theist and very probably an Atheist.

So...... belief.
But many Atheists don't like the work 'belief'' very much 'cos it tends to diminish their coat of many sciences, some of them just think they know it all.

Belief? Huh! Spit...... Sniff.......

I understand to an extent how deism works for you and I understand the atheist lack of belief in God or gods. I understand how atheism whether positively or negatively defined has different meanings. Its clear that atheism has different and varied to meanings to different people. Atheism to me atheism isn't a religion but to me is a belief, even when defined as a lack of belief.

What about deism? Would you consider deism a belief?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The question is whether or not atheism is a belief, not a religion. I agree that opinions and general views are beliefs. Atheism too is an opinion or general view about the nature of God. Therefore atheism is a belief.

Follow-up to my previous post.

In this, I want to clarify some points about the nature of "belief." It is certainly a fact that all humans, without any exceptions who are not brain dead, belief many things. In a complex world of imperfect information, this is inevitable, and we simply couldn't do anything without those beliefs.

At the same time, all of us also totally lack any sort of belief about an untold multitude of other things. I don't think any of have any beliefs about what's being served for dinner on Rigel XII, or if we think about it (as I've just forced you to do), it has absolutely zero impact on what we do.

And this is key. Many beliefs are very important to us, and inform our actions. My beliefs about gravity (which we all share, because that one is, I think hard-wired into our brains) inform my feeling as I approach the edge of a precipice, or contemplate how I'm going to get down from a height I'm unused to. My beliefs about my relationship with my partner (and certainly, some of those are beliefs, not knowledge, because we can never, ever know that another person is telling the complete truth), after how I proceed in that relationship. By the same token, I believe my good friend's wife really loves him, but that belief has little to no impact upon my actions -- it has nothing whatever to do with me.

Thus it is with beliefs about God. For those who do believe in God, they must, by definition, have some notion of what that God is, and what their relationship to that God has to be. This will, to be certain, have an impact on how the behave -- beliefs inform behaviours, after all.

But a lack of belief in something does not inform anything at all. It is simply a non-existent part of the thinking environment. I do not kill people because I lack a belief in God, I don't kill people because I have a strong belief that it is wrong in and of itself because it would be wrong if done to me. My behaviours are based on positive beliefs, never on the lack of them.

I hope this explanation makes clear why I asked the question in previous post. Why is it important to you to characterize a lack of belief in God as a belief?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I believe in an un-involved God which is everything and everyforce together. Ergo, I do not believe in an involved interested God. Ergo I am at least a Non-Theist and very probably an Atheist.

So...... belief.
But many Atheists don't like the work 'belief'' very much 'cos it tends to diminish their coat of many sciences, some of them just think they know it all.

Belief? Huh! Spit...... Sniff.......

If you "believe in an un-involved God which is everything and everyforce together," then you are a deist, by your own admission. And that is a belief, not a lack of one.

 

[paarsurrey]

Is atheism a belief?

Belief in what, please?
They don't trust/believe/have faith even in Atheism, please. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

If a man consumes alcohol to excess, beats his wife and neglects his children, yet claims to love his God and family, I would question that claim.

And you would be correct to question the claim. Beliefs inform behaviours, and though behaviours in humans are very complex, to claim that you "love" someone and yet beat and neglect them means that your definition of "love" is not the one that most people understand.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Follow-up to my previous post.

In this, I want to clarify some points about the nature of "belief." It is certainly a fact that all humans, without any exceptions who are not brain dead, belief many things. In a complex world of imperfect information, this is inevitable, and we simply couldn't do anything without those beliefs.

At the same time, all of us also totally lack any sort of belief about an untold multitude of other things. I don't think any of have any beliefs about what's being served for dinner on Rigel XII, or if we think about it (as I've just forced you to do), it has absolutely zero impact on what we do.

And this is key. Many beliefs are very important to us, and inform our actions. My beliefs about gravity (which we all share, because that one is, I think hard-wired into our brains) inform my feeling as I approach the edge of a precipice, or contemplate how I'm going to get down from a height I'm unused to. My beliefs about my relationship with my partner (and certainly, some of those are beliefs, not knowledge, because we can never, ever know that another person is telling the complete truth), after how I proceed in that relationship. By the same token, I believe my good friend's wife really loves him, but that belief has little to no impact upon my actions -- it has nothing whatever to do with me.

Thus it is with beliefs about God. For those who do believe in God, they must, by definition, have some notion of what that God is, and what their relationship to that God has to be. This will, to be certain, have an impact on how the behave -- beliefs inform behaviours, after all.

But a lack of belief in something does not inform anything at all. It is simply a non-existent part of the thinking environment. I do not kill people because I lack a belief in God, I don't kill people because I have a strong belief that it is wrong in and of itself because it would be wrong if done to me. My behaviours are based on positive beliefs, never on the lack of them.

I hope this explanation makes clear why I asked the question in previous post. Why is it important to you to characterize a lack of belief in God as a belief?

Thank you for your posts and clarification. You give clear concise explanations which I appreciate.

For me there is no urgency whatsoever about this issue. It is important if I am to have a discussion about religious beliefs there be some mutual understanding and respect.

If at the outset of an interfaith conversation there are certain indicators or red flags to suggest a conversation will not be productive or satisfying for either party. One indicator is endless quibbling about semantics. Another is condescension from one or both parties.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[j1i]

Just look at the terribly inept/unintelligible state of your words here. "Instinct" that "the old fathers knew." The problem here should be obvious to anyone who isn't deluded beyond comprehension (something I am suspicious of YOU being held victim of to be honest). "Instinct" necessarily means a thing in-born, and NOT REQUIRING CONSCIOUS THOUGHT. And here you are, claiming that instinct can include THE THOUGHTS/KNOWLEDGE OF DEAD PEOPLE. Try again.

As theists like to point out quite often, atheism is a stance held by a small minority. Do you really believe it is this small minority that is injecting "poison" into our world? Can you really make that claim when there are far more theists, and therefore far more theists are criminals, far more theists are corrupt politicians, far more theists are uncaring leaders of corporations, far more theists influence the formation of governments, far more theists are the people you interact with on a daily basis.

Why the hyperbolic dichotomy? Some people come to, or even start out as atheist (like myself), and some people are influenced by others. I would tell you people come to atheism BOTH ways. Is this an issue for you or something?

This is just prejudice and bigotry here. Where do you even get these ideas? Your theistic brethren, if I were to hazard a guess. But we all know: "Theism is a thought that attracts those who dreadfully fear reality and have no desire to act or react to anything in the world with any amount of responsibility whatsoever." See what I did there? I can say completely stupid, inane bullcrap just as easily as you can.

Hello brother and thank you for sharing and accusations and hash dust in my face

you said
This is just prejudice and bigotry here

My response was in conceptualization and trying to understand
The subject named how you see atheism
My participation is only a study of understanding and not facts and not fanaticism
Why is there no freedom just accuse me because of my opinion?

Why condemnation on my thoughts as well
Why am I the class that pumps the poison as it claims
There is no proof that the main source of man was of little knowledge
What you say is a claim and attacks on my ideas and I see that you are trying to scatter the papers also

Atheism is a misconception
Because these creatures have a maker and if we follow each plant we will eventually find the real manager of these factories
There is no car without a maker
All these questions answer the existence of a Creator

Atheism was an invented idea that did not exist and the evidence would be found in the behavior of instinctive organisms

Animals and birds create and have knowledge as well as human
But because of the noise of life and behavioral habits of humans has destroy how to get real knowledge

My question also
Who created you and how you came in this picture
Disease and its causes and ways of recovery
When the disease is looking for healing with all my strength
Someone will heal you
Do you deny healing tools
Tell me that you heal automatically without drug intervention

The majority develops positive perceptions of the existence of the Creator and does not deny it

thanks

 

[j1i]

Being an example of why i referred to the topic
as a semantics game.

About a half dozen claims there.

And every single one of those is entirely, utterly wrong.

Impressive.

"Agnostic" doesn't mean "not gnostic."

I hope I get an explanation of my question of the belief of an agnostic or atheism

Why we speak low when we are scared
i mean in places of fear why we speak quietly ?

Imgur

There is our faith that there are hidden creatures but we do not see them and there is no ability to prove them

This shows man the contradiction in understanding the facts
Is he afraid of nothing? While there is thought to be something?

i'm waiting the answer
Imgur

atheism: example
There is no creator but see factory marks

take care

 

[oldbadger]

I understand to an extent how deism works for you and I understand the atheist lack of belief in God or gods. I understand how atheism whether positively or negatively defined has different meanings. Its clear that atheism has different and varied to meanings to different people. Atheism to me atheism isn't a religion but to me is a belief, even when defined as a lack of belief.

I reckon that both Atheism and non-Theism are opinions based upon belief.
Speaking of 'certainty', if, 40 years ago, science fiction writers had described many details of our world today, they would have lost credibility amongst much of their readership, imo, The world would have considered such writers to have lost any foundation of sci-fi credibility....... most certainly.

Whilst Star-Trek's Scotty could beam bodies up from or down to alien planets, and small handsets could communicate using sight as well as voice, the idea that any kid would have an instrument such as they have today would be 'certainly absolutely impossible.... for sure'.

Certainty is a giant leap from belief.

What about deism? Would you consider deism a belief?

Yep.
Even our sciences have trouble with 'certain fact.' What was a 'sure-thing' back-in-the-day could now be considered to have been a dreadful error.

 

[oldbadger]

If you "believe in an un-involved God which is everything and everyforce together," then you are a deist, by your own admission. And that is a belief, not a lack of one.

Gosh..... well you caught me there.
My opening two words 'I believe.,......' must have been what caught me up in your net.

.....and later on in my post, when you saw where I wrote :-
So...... belief.
......... you must have thought ,Got him now!'

 

[dfnj]

Atheism could be defined as:

A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Another way of phrasing it could be one who believes there is no God or gods.

I’m good with either definition but not everyone is. Maybe I shouldn’t be either.

What is the best definition of atheism and why can it be so difficult to define?

I think Christians would be very upset if atheists characterized Jesus as being some gay Jew living in the desert, or worse, he was actually married to Mary. I think the same thing applies to atheism. I think atheists get to decide what atheism means not theists. And every person I've ever met who has claimed they were an atheist has NEVER said they did deny the existence of God. They only claimed they had a lack of belief in God because there was or is no physical evidence to support the belief.

I think it is very simple to define. Atheism is a lack of belief in God or gods.

What we need is a word for theists who think they can justify their belief in God with evidence as opposed to a choice made only by having faith. I am the latter type theist. Other than saying ALL of existence is evidence for the existence of God I just accept there is no real limited evidence for the existence of God. But not having this evidence does not degrade my faith at all.

My faith in God is strong based on two ideas. First, everything we know about nature turns out to be so much stranger than anything we could have ever imagined. This is pillar supporting my belief in life after death. And second, there is a natural order to the way nature gets organized that seems to indicate a particular direction, destiny, or purpose. Nature has a non-Matrix element to it that I find fascinated. Certainly hard determinism required by a having clockwork Universe is nowhere in sight.

It's almost as if God is the force in the Universe that keeps our full understanding of nature just one step beyond our full comprehension.

 

[dfnj]

If a man consumes alcohol to excess, beats his wife and neglects his children, yet claims to love his God and family, I would question that claim.

I would agree provided you accept the premise God exists and with particular type of character. What I think is a much more interesting question is given all the unnecessary evil in the World how does one continue to have faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love? I have argued the answer is God is whole, perfect, without any needs or imperfections. Where as man and nature are full of imperfections. It is our imperfections that are the source of all that is evil in the World not God. With this idea, claiming to "love his God" is irrelevant. God does not need our love. We can aspire to be God-like with perfect character having no emotional needs but the reality is none of us will ever achieve the perfect unity and wholeness that is God. Some people aspire to experience the wholeness and others do not. I think God is the same no matter how miserably we live our lives.

 

[dfnj]

I reckon that both Atheism and non-Theism are opinions based upon belief.

I reckon you are completely wrong. The absence of something is not something. The absence of something is NOTHING. So atheism is not a belief because you can state what the belief is. Every atheist I know defined atheism as a lack of belief in God or gods because there is no evidence to support the belief. You cannot argue with this position. It's rock solid.

The atheist is NOT saying they don't believe in God. What they are saying is they are waiting for credible evidence of God's existence which is very different than the way you have characterized it.

Unless God comes down off his thrown and starts prancing about giving orders about morality and demonstrating His omnipotent powers then all we have is faith. If the atheist position about God is all it takes for you to feel threatened in your own theist beliefs then you should not be a theist to begin with.

The Japanese have a saying, "the first person to raise their voice in an argument, loses." In my mind, any theist who raises their voice at all about atheism is expressing a lack of faith in their own belief system.

 

[oldbadger]

I reckon you are completely wrong. The absence of something is not something. The absence of something is NOTHING.

You don't know there is nothing... you only think that..... you believe.

So atheism is not a belief because you can state what the belief is. Every atheist I know defined atheism as a lack of belief in God or gods because there is no evidence to support the belief. You cannot argue with this position. It's rock solid.

Every Atheist BELIEVES that there is no God.

The atheist is NOT saying they don't believe in God. What they are saying is they are waiting for credible evidence of God's existence which is very different than the way you have characterized it.

That is not any description of certainty. The very condition of 'Waiting for evidence' shows uncertainty. Where there is no certitude, then only belief can exist.

Unless God comes down off his thrown and starts prancing about giving orders about morality and demonstrating His omnipotent powers then all we have is faith. If the atheist position about God is all it takes for you to feel threatened in your own theist beliefs then you should not be a theist to begin with.

My own Theistic beliefs? You've lost the plot, mate. I'm a Deist!
What a joke.........

The Japanese have a saying, "the first person to raise their voice in an argument, loses." In my mind, any theist who raises their voice at all about atheism is expressing a lack of faith in their own belief system.

Well then..... stop shouting all this ignorance.
Go and learn the difference between Theism, Non-Theism, Atheism and Deism and you'll educate yourself about all this.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Every Atheist BELIEVES that there is no God.

False.

I'm an atheist and I don't believe that there is no God.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I think Christians would be very upset if atheists characterized Jesus as being some gay Jew living in the desert, or worse, he was actually married to Mary. I think the same thing applies to atheism.

The reality of our interfaith world is there are many narratives we use to describe those with different worldviews. The Christians, Muslims and atheists all have something to say about the other. I have an opinion about atheists as atheists will have an opinion about theists such as myself. Some of it may be based on what atheists, Muslims and Christians have to say about themselves. Some of it won’t. There may be complimentary statements made. At other times criticism.

I think atheists get to decide what atheism means not theists. And every person I've ever met who has claimed they were an atheist has NEVER said they did deny the existence of God. They only claimed they had a lack of belief in God because there was or is no physical evidence to support the belief.

Where I live (New Zealand) over 40% of our population don’t identify with religion and a sizeable proportion are atheists. Most atheists I’ve spoken to deny the existence of God. They have a variety of reasons. So your perspective of atheists is based on your experiences, not mine.

I think it is very simple to define. Atheism is a lack of belief in God or gods.

Sure, but that’s not a universally agreed on definition, even amongst atheists.

What we need is a word for theists who think they can justify their belief in God with evidence as opposed to a choice made only by having faith. I am the latter type theist. Other than saying ALL of existence is evidence for the existence of God I just accept there is no real limited evidence for the existence of God. But not having this evidence does not degrade my faith at all.

Ok. Let’s take a step back. You identify yourself as a theist. That is very broad. How about telling me about your Theism? Otherwise it will be difficult to understand where you are coming from.

My faith in God is strong based on two ideas. First, everything we know about nature turns out to be so much stranger than anything we could have ever imagined. This is pillar supporting my belief in life after death. And second, there is a natural order to the way nature gets organized that seems to indicate a particular direction, destiny, or purpose. Nature has a non-Matrix element to it that I find fascinated. Certainly hard determinism required by a having clockwork Universe is nowhere in sight.

So when you say God, I’m not sure I understand you. I agree there is life after death and a spiritual dimension interwoven with nature. Central to my theism are the Manifestations of God. They include Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, Krishna and Bahá’u’lláh. Perhaps that is the biggest difference between us?

It's almost as if God is the force in the Universe that keeps our full understanding of nature just one step beyond our full comprehension.

I believe God Manifests or Reveals Himself through Great Teachers as above. Following Their Teachings is the safest and most effective spiritual path for the majority of theists, myself included. Although as individuals we can have mystical experiences I’m sceptical when someone claims they have had a personal revelation where they would exalt themselves above God’s Chosen One and reject their Teachings.

 

[ArtieE]

Every Atheist BELIEVES that there is no God.

I'm an atheist and I don't believe there is no God.

 

[ArtieE]

Where I live (New Zealand) over 40% of our population don’t identify with religion and a sizeable proportion are atheists. Most atheists I’ve spoken to deny the existence of God. They have a variety of reasons. So your perspective of atheists is based on your experiences, not mine.

Those are strong atheists, not just atheists. They are a sub-group of all atheists. Negative and positive atheism - Wikipedia

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Hello brother and thank you for sharing and accusations and hash dust in my face

You are so very welcome. If you need more, just ask. Honestly. It is no problem.

My response was in conceptualization and trying to understand
The subject named how you see atheism
My participation is only a study of understanding and not facts and not fanaticism
Why is there no freedom just accuse me because of my opinion?

You are free to your opinion, but what you are doing is dressing your opinion up like facts, and using language trying to portray that you have conducted some "Study," or "know the psychology." And I am saying that I don't believe you. I don't believe you've conducted any such research. You're formulating an opinion and trying to play it off as more than that. That's what I am accusing you of.

Why condemnation on my thoughts as well

Because your thoughts are PROVEN to be in error. Instinct doesn't include the thoughts of dead people. That crap isn't even in the meaning and usage of the word. If you're using a different meaning and usage, let me know. Otherwise, you're just plain wrong and being completely foolish. Tossing words around without a care as to what you are actually saying.

Why am I the class that pumps the poison as it claims
There is no proof that the main source of man was of little knowledge
What you say is a claim and attacks on my ideas and I see that you are trying to scatter the papers also

Sorry... I honestly just don't understand much of what you're saying here. "Scatter the papers?" And what is this about the "main source of man?"

Atheism is a misconception

Your opinion, correct? Just want to make that clear because you used absolutely NO language to indicate that. This is stated as fact. And this is exactly why I called you out. Don't like it? Tough. You'll have to just avoid me or something.

Because these creatures have a maker and if we follow each plant we will eventually find the real manager of these factories

This is opinion here again, because you can't possibly know this. If you DID know this, and could demonstrate the truth of it, you'd be world-famous.

There is no car without a maker

So what?

All these questions answer the existence of a Creator

No they don't. They just further establish that that is your opinion and why you hold it. This does not necessarily describe the real world. You would have to provide solid evidence for any rational person to accept this.

Atheism was an invented idea that did not exist and the evidence would be found in the behavior of instinctive organisms

Because bacteria display innate knowledge that God exists, right? Give me a break.

Animals and birds create and have knowledge as well as human

And? What do you think this proves? It only proves that knowledge can come pre-built-in as part of the brain. Beyond that, what can you possibly use this as evidence of with an actual demonstration of the veracity of your claims? You have nothing.

But because of the noise of life and behavioral habits of humans has destroy how to get real knowledge

Prove it.

My question also
Who created you and how you came in this picture

My parents conceived me after a long line of decendency from past organisms. Beyond that I don't see any "creative" force.

Disease and its causes and ways of recovery
When the disease is looking for healing with all my strength
Someone will heal you
Do you deny healing tools
Tell me that you heal automatically without drug intervention

Uh... yes... I do so all the time. And so do you, unless you have some kind of auto-immune disorder. All humans come pre-packaged with the ability to heal minor wounds and combat sickness. Hence the word "auto" in "auto-immune".

The majority develops positive perceptions of the existence of the Creator and does not deny it

Argumentum ad populum. Just because something is thought/adopted by the majority doesn't make it correct or true. Besides this, the notion that so many people, groups and cultures have come to completely different revelations about "god" or "gods" shatters this notion to pieces. There is no "instinct" that drives people to any real "god." If there were, it would all be to the same, correct "god." Instead, the instinct is to see action taken when none has been taken - to anthropomorphize the activities of the world and assign vocation and intent where none exists. That's the real instinct in my opinion, and it's also my opinion that you have fallen for it, hook, line and sinker.