Is atheism a threat to humanity?

[mikkel_the_dane]

Note what you said...Well, the atheists will say that religious books ARE one of those things created by evil men to misguide the opinions of the masses for their benefit.

the statement above indicates all, a majority, or typical of.
A blanket statement about atheists.

And you support that with what you think three people seem to
say, unsupported by any quote.

IOW, your claim s garbage.

And all religious humans are not dogmatic fundamentalist theists, yet as a religious person I am excepted to defend them. I won't, not because they are theists, but because they speak with an authority that they don't have.

Now for this: "...religious books ARE one of those things created by evil men to misguide the opinions of the masses for their benefit" - I don't hold all atheists responsible for it and I don't even hold a single atheist responsible for it. I hold any person, who claims this responsible for the truth in the claim. And it is not true. It is not even a half-truth. It is without evidence based on how reality works in practice for the claim in toto.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[BilliardsBall]

Before starting this topic, let me say this: I know that atheists may say the opposite is true. Although this thread is not to discuss its topic in relation to religion, let me only give this example: during the golden age of the Islamic empire, despite what many people may think, the majority of the citizens of that empire were non-Muslims!

The Christians, the Jews, and the Zoroastrians, were all allowed to keep their lands in their hands and keep their places of worship, and were not enforced convert to the new religion. The tax (Jizya) they were paying was marginal compared to the hefty taxes they were used to pay to the Roman and Pertain empires. Indeed that is why many of the citizens of those empires have welcomed and even supported the newcomers. And if it was not for this support, the small number of Muslim Bedouins and other Arabs with their ill equipped forces and poor strategies would not have been able to defeat the two great world powers of that time.

Now, let us return to our main topic, there is a real inherent ethical problem with atheists. They have no red lines coming from an outside source, such as religion. So they follow their own minds, While we all know that the human minds are limited. and humans are weak in nature, and their decisions may influenced by many factors. Even the opinions of the masses may be misguided by some evil powers.

What do you think?!

I think atheists are the saviors of humanity! They did so splendidly in the USSR and China, it's so wonderful to live there now after 70 years of official, forced atheism!

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I think atheists are the saviors of humanity! They did so splendidly in the USSR and China, it's so wonderful to live there now after 70 years of official, forced atheism!

All atheists are not that and all religious humans are not dogmatic and fundamentalists.
Some atheists and religious humans are humanists, secular, believe in democracy and universal human rights.

Stop it. I will correct you as to how the world works in practice, regardless of your belief system.

 

[sayak83]

Note what you said...Well, the atheists will say that religious books ARE one of those things created by evil men to misguide the opinions of the masses for their benefit.

the statement above indicates all, a majority, or typical of.
A blanket statement about atheists.

And you support that with what you think three people seem to
say, unsupported by any quote.

IOW, your claim s garbage.

I was being sarcastic about the OP claim and was showing that an opposite charge can be made equally easily.

 

[Augustus]

I would accept it if someone cared to demonstrate it.

They were pretty explicit about it:

Marx: "Communism from the outset begins with atheism"

Lenin: "Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism"

Marx: "It is our duty to destroy every religious world-concept...The criticism of religion leads to the doctrine according to which man is, for man, the supreme being; therefore it reaches the categorical imperative of overthrowing all relationships in which man is a degraded, enslaved, abandoned, contemptible being."

No biggie. What is a biggie is the persons of evil who
say atheists are without any moral underpinnings
and their invidious message that atrocities are to be
expected from atheists.

Of course if someone says that atheism = no morals then it's obviously nonsense.

Within the specific confines of Marxism though, atheism, in the sense of belief there is no god, was used as a justification for a callousness towards individual human life in pursuit of creating a communist society.

Summed up by Trotsky: “We must rid ourselves once and for all of the Quaker-Papist babble about the sanctity of human life”.

Reasoning that begins with the axiom there there is no god can end up in dark places, just as reasoning that begins with the axiom there is a god can end up in dark places.

That's just humans for you...

 

[columbus]

I think atheists are the saviors of humanity! They did so splendidly in the USSR and China, it's so wonderful to live there now after 70 years of official, forced atheism!

The communists you are referring to had recreated Abrahamic religion.

They had an ineffable higher power, the proletariat.
They had prophets, like Marx and Mao.
They had high priests, like Stalin and Pol Pot.
They had a college of cardinals, called the Politboro.
They had a church called The Party, to which only true believers were admitted.
And they considered anybody who wasn't a Party member Expendables.

Communists didn't outlaw religion. They outlawed any other religions. And they used the power derived from being the Official Spokesmen for the Proletariat the same way tyrants have often used such a position. To acquire more power and wealth by exploiting people who have been trained to obey and not think.
That's the part that makes them so religious.
Tom

 

[QuestioningMind]

Try to read things in the actual context they are written please.

I'm sure you wouldn't then ask why I quote Marx as if he was on authority on Marxism, would you?



The reason that Marx advocated for atheism was that it was a fundamental principle that underpinned the philosophy of Marxism.

Not sure why so many atheists have a problem with accepting this fact. It doesn't mean that atheism = Marxism or atheism is bad or whatever calumny some people seem to think it implies.

Why do you quote Karl Marx as if he was some sort of an authority on atheism? His philosophies had to do with getting people to worship the state instead of god... NOT atheism.

 

[Augustus]

Why do you quote Karl Marx as if he was some sort of an authority on atheism? His philosophies had to do with getting people to worship the state instead of god... NOT atheism.

Why do you keep ignoring what I actually write?

QM: Why do you quote Karl Marx as if he was some sort of an authority on atheism?
A: I was quoting him as an authority on Marxism, not atheism
QM: WHY DO YOU QUOTE KARL MARX AS IF HE WAS SOME SORT OF AUTHORITY ON ATHEISM?

 

[columbus]

A long time ago, the mid 80s, I got to chat with a young man who was an exchange student from Soviet Russia.

He explained all about Jesus.
Jesus was a revolutionary. He fought against the religious and government tyrants. So they killed Him.

And then there was this. Does the "Worker's Paradise", where all of God's children thrive, not sound like a modern translation of "Kingdom of Heaven"?
It does to me.
Tom

 

[QuestioningMind]

They were pretty explicit about it:

Marx: "Communism from the outset begins with atheism"

Lenin: "Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism"

Marx: "It is our duty to destroy every religious world-concept...The criticism of religion leads to the doctrine according to which man is, for man, the supreme being; therefore it reaches the categorical imperative of overthrowing all relationships in which man is a degraded, enslaved, abandoned, contemptible being."




Of course if someone says that atheism = no morals then it's obviously nonsense.

Within the specific confines of Marxism though, atheism, in the sense of belief there is no god, was used as a justification for a callousness towards individual human life in pursuit of creating a communist society.

Summed up by Trotsky: “We must rid ourselves once and for all of the Quaker-Papist babble about the sanctity of human life”.

Reasoning that begins with the axiom there there is no god can end up in dark places, just as reasoning that begins with the axiom there is a god can end up in dark places.

That's just humans for you...

Marx: "Communism from the outset begins with atheism"

Lenin: "Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism"

And CLEARLY they were WRONG. Just look at N. Korea, a COMMUNIST nation where they worship the Supreme Leader as god incarnate. It has nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with eliminating the worship of anything but the state.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Why do you keep ignoring what I actually write?

QM: Why do you quote Karl Marx as if he was some sort of an authority on atheism?
A: I was quoting him as an authority on Marxism, not atheism
QM: WHY DO YOU QUOTE KARL MARX AS IF HE WAS SOME SORT OF AUTHORITY ON ATHEISM?

My point is WHO CARES what Marxism has to say about atheism? Marxism is simply a failed economic philosophy that requires that people worship the state.

 

[columbus]

My point is WHO CARES what Marxism has to say about atheism? Marxism is simply a failed economic philosophy that requires that people worship the state.

Actually, Marxism predicted that the state would wither away. It wouldn't be necessary.
Rather reminds me of Christian predictions that Jesus is going to return and set everything right.
While in the meantime, His Official Spokesmen will continue to pile up wealth and power.
Tom

 

[Augustus]

My point is WHO CARES what Marxism has to say about atheism?

Numerous people in this thread apparently. You cared enough to join in our conversation too.

Would probably have been better to have just said that directly instead of via a strawman that seemed to suggest something different though

Marx: "Communism from the outset begins with atheism"

Lenin: "Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism"

And CLEARLY they were WRONG. Just look at N. Korea, a COMMUNIST nation where they worship the Supreme Leader as god incarnate. It has nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with eliminating the worship of anything but the state.

Does it really need pointing out that there are multiple forms of communism that have existed throughout human history, and that Marxist Communism is simply one of these forms? Bonus point if you can guess which form Marx is discussing.

On the subject of Marxism, given the choice between a) Karl Marx b) some chap off the internet who keeps committing logical fallacies, I'm going to side with Karl Marx as being more authoritative. Just call it a hunch...

 

[Augustus]

And then there was this. Does the "Worker's Paradise", where all of God's children thrive, not sound like a modern translation of "Kingdom of Heaven"?
It does to me.

Marxism and Liberalism both borrow heavily from Christianity in their myths.

'History' in Marxism (adapted from Hegel) functions pretty much like Divine Providence too. It's like the liberal Idea of Progress on steroids.

If only they'd remembered the message of The Fall too though, it could have saved a lot of trouble...

 

[BilliardsBall]

All atheists are not that and all religious humans are not dogmatic and fundamentalists.
Some atheists and religious humans are humanists, secular, believe in democracy and universal human rights.

Stop it. I will correct you as to how the world works in practice, regardless of your belief system.

Can you tell me about an atheist society that has benefited its nation?

How about a charity begun by an atheist?

How many atheists visited the Southeast to help after Hurricane Katrina?

 

[BilliardsBall]

The communists you are referring to had recreated Abrahamic religion.

They had an ineffable higher power, the proletariat.
They had prophets, like Marx and Mao.
They had high priests, like Stalin and Pol Pot.
They had a college of cardinals, called the Politboro.
They had a church called The Party, to which only true believers were admitted.
And they considered anybody who wasn't a Party member Expendables.

Communists didn't outlaw religion. They outlawed any other religions. And they used the power derived from being the Official Spokesmen for the Proletariat the same way tyrants have often used such a position. To acquire more power and wealth by exploiting people who have been trained to obey and not think.
That's the part that makes them so religious.
Tom

"Communist totalitarian governments didn't outlaw religion."

We cannot even talk about this, can we?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Can you tell me about an atheist society that has benefited its nation?

How about a charity begun by an atheist?

How many atheists visited the Southeast to help after Hurricane Katrina?

I won't answer you. I turned into a debate. I shouldn't have done that. This is discuss.

 

[columbus]

"Communist totalitarian governments didn't outlaw religion."

Correct.
They invented their own religion and forbade anyone to hold any other religions.

Christians have done the same thing.

We cannot even talk about this, can we?

Yes.
But you can't just make assertions based on your own authority, such as which English translation is the true Word of God, and then expect me to accept your authority.
Tom

 

[QuestioningMind]

Numerous people in this thread apparently. You cared enough to join in our conversation too.

Would probably have been better to have just said that directly instead of via a strawman that seemed to suggest something different though



Does it really need pointing out that there are multiple forms of communism that have existed throughout human history, and that Marxist Communism is simply one of these forms? Bonus point if you can guess which form Marx is discussing.

On the subject of Marxism, given the choice between a) Karl Marx b) some chap off the internet who keeps committing logical fallacies, I'm going to side with Karl Marx as being more authoritative. Just call it a hunch...

Numerous people in this thread apparently. You cared enough to join in our conversation too.

Only to point out how useless it is to quote a philosopher of a failed economic system in a thread about weather or not atheism is a threat to humanity.

I'm going to side with Karl Marx as being more authoritative.

HOPEFULLY your siding with him on his economic philosophies and NOT as an expert on atheism. Though why you'd even bring up someone who proposed a failed economic system in a thread about the threat of atheism is beyond me.

 

[McBell]

Can you tell me about an atheist society that has benefited its nation?

Japan
Iceland
France
Australia
Czech Republic

How about a charity begun by an atheist?

List of secularist organizations - Wikipedia

How many atheists visited the Southeast to help after Hurricane Katrina?

no idea beyond the group of us (11) and the ones we talked to down there (31)

Of course, we had to work around all the theists who spent more time congratulating each other for their showing up instead of actually doing something to help.