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Is beastiality immoral?

Skwim

Veteran Member
I meant adult humans (and you knew that). But had I said adult humans, you would've said "but children are humans." But your semantics game is a little desperate, don't you think?
So why even include animals in your statements "Children and animals are not adults" if you just wanted say "Children are not adults"?

As for "food, labor, and entertainment", if the animal is in extreme, pain, anguish and distress in those situations, then it's unethical in those situations as well. I imagine raping an animal would cause it extreme pain, anguish and distress.
You imagine. So you think we should base our morals and laws on what we might imagine? And just how should we go about determining this "extreme, pain, anguish and distress" so as to distinguish it from just horrible pain, intense anguish, and dire distress? Ask the animal? "Had enough?" And why should these lesser degrees of discomfort be acceptable? "Yeah I know she looks pretty bad, but she's not in extreme pain yet so she's ok."
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
So why even include animals in your statements "Children and animals are not adults" if you just wanted say "Children are not adults"?
Because animals aren't human adults, either. Like I said, they cannot make mature, rational decisions, nor can they contemplate consequence. They lack independence. They can not give informed consent.

You imagine. So you think we should base our morals and laws on what we might imagine? And just how should we go about determining this "extreme, pain, anguish and distress" so as to distinguish it from just horrible pain, intense anguish, and dire distress? Ask the animal? "Had enough?" And why should these lesser degrees of discomfort be acceptable? "Yeah I know she looks pretty bad, but she's not in extreme pain yet so she's ok."

Humans don't like being raped; they find it frightening, painful and horrific so it's logical to assume that it has a similar impact on animals, and you can gauge the impact of an action by how the animal responds to it and its resulting behavior afterwards.

You seem awfully passionate and defensive about the whole issue.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Because animals aren't human adults, either. Like I said, they cannot make mature, rational decisions, nor can they contemplate consequence. They lack independence. They can not give informed consent.

Nor they can give informed consent to being killed for gastronomical pleasure o.o
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Humans don't like being raped; they find it frightening, painful and horrific so it's logical to assume that it has a similar impact on animals, and you can gauge the impact of an action by how the animal responds to it and its resulting behavior afterwards.
Think many humans would like to pull plows or sleds, be beaten with a whip to run faster, or have their heads in irons all day just so their teats can be pulled to give milk?

You seem awfully passionate and defensive about the whole issue.
What interests me is poor reasoning. I hate to see anyone abuse their brains to the point they think their misguided notions are correct. ;)
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
Nor they can give informed consent to being killed for gastronomical pleasure o.o
Read once about a guy who at a young age discovered he enjoyed raping animals, especially if he stabbed them as well. Would you consider that immoral?
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Think many humans would like to pull plows or sleds, be beaten with a whip to run faster, or have their heads in irons all day just so their teats can be pulled to give milk?

Such things shouldn't be unnecessary in the modern world. But in the developing world, it's a necessity for agriculture and survival.

What interests me is poor reasoning. I hate to see anyone abuse their brains to the point they think their misguided notions are correct. ;)

I just don't like animal abuse.
 
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CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
You don't see too many lions trying to frak a gazelle. When a lion kills and eats a gazelle it's natural but when the lion fraks the gazelle...well that's abnormal.

Same with people.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
You don't see too many lions trying to frak a gazelle. When a lion kills and eats a gazelle it's natural but when the lion fraks the gazelle...well that's abnormal.

Same with people.
Abnormality isn't the same as immorality.

Anyway, I'm not convinced that humans are the only species that can consent, but I agree that the scope for abuse is large. All in, an exercise is ethical thinking is can be entertaining but ending animal cruelty is genuinely important.

So is everyone now vegetarian?
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
Abnormality isn't the same as immorality.

Anyway, I'm not convinced that humans are the only species that can consent, but I agree that the scope for abuse is large. All in, an exercise is ethical thinking is can be entertaining but ending animal cruelty is genuinely important.

So is everyone now vegetarian?
I am, but I have been for around 13 years :p.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Such things shouldn't be unnecessary in the modern world. But in the developing world, it's a necessity for agriculture and survival.

What interests me is poor reasoning. I hate to see anyone abuse their brains to the point they think their misguided notions are correct. ;)

I just don't like animal abuse.[/quote]
Then I assume you're also against horse racing, dog sledding, pig breeding "prisons," and caging animals in zoos.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
Abnormality isn't the same as immorality.

Anyway, I'm not convinced that humans are the only species that can consent, but I agree that the scope for abuse is large. All in, an exercise is ethical thinking is can be entertaining but ending animal cruelty is genuinely important.

So is everyone now vegetarian?

You guys have to quit comparing apples with oranges. Eating an animal is not the same as frakking an animal. You just don't frak your food. That's disgusting.

I guess people can tell I like Battlestar Galactica
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That HIV started by bestiality is a myth it is far more likely that someone ate raw bush meat or got blood in a cut while they where hunting a chimp for meat.
And diseases like influenza and smallpox began as animal diseases, but it was farming and eating them that transfered the diseases to humans, not shagging them.

As for "food, labor, and entertainment", if the animal is in extreme, pain, anguish and distress in those situations, then it's unethical in those situations as well. I imagine raping an animal would cause it extreme pain, anguish and distress.
First, most man-beast sex is male dog on male or female submissive. If it caused the dog pain or distress he wouldn't do it or enjoy it so much -- and the human is a consenting adult.
In the less common cases of men with mares, ewes, sows, &c, it's hard to imagine they'd even feel it, much less find it painful. :shrug:

Usually when slaughtering livestock, it usually done quickly and humanely as possible. And sustenance is a better trade off than sexual gratification.
If the sex causes neither harm nor distress to either party how is it worse than actually killing the animal, humanely or otherwise? Then there's the well known environmental harm our meat industry causes. How Meat Contributes to Global Warming: Scientific American
If either is to be condemned I should think it would be the latter.

Humans don't like being raped; they find it frightening, painful and horrific so it's logical to assume that it has a similar impact on animals, and you can gauge the impact of an action by how the animal responds to it and its resulting behavior afterwards..
No it's not. No-one's taught the animals they should feel feel shamed or degraded by sex -- those are human inventions. To an animal "recipient" its just another strange interaction with those odd-looking ape things, like being brushed or shod.
And remember, most bestiality is the Fido on top variety. If they didn't like it they wouldn't do it (and I'm speaking of both parties;)).

Read once about a guy who at a young age discovered he enjoyed raping animals, especially if he stabbed them as well. Would you consider that immoral?
Are you really serious? How is inflicting pain, suffering and harm in the same category as sex?
I'll ask you: If a man stabbed a woman during sex, would it be wrong? Why? (hint: it's not the sex ;))

You don't see too many lions trying to frak a gazelle. When a lion kills and eats a gazelle it's natural but when the lion fraks the gazelle...well that's abnormal.

Same with people.
Back to this "natural/normal" thing again? :facepalm: How many times do we need to go over this? Natural is morally irrelevant. Normal is both irrelevant, mercurial and culturally variable.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Our natural behavior is tribal, Cynthia; living in small bands with strong in-group bonding and competition with other bands, and with moral consideration usually confined to one's own band. Our natural behavior is that of chimpanzees.

Extra-tribal moral obligation is a new development, artificial, not natural.
Of course, I could also bring up all the new, 'artificial' attitudes and behaviors that developed with civilization.

People are the planet's least natural animals.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
First, most man-beast sex is male dog on male or female submissive. If it caused the dog pain or distress he wouldn't do it or enjoy it so much -- and the human is a consenting adult.
In the less common cases of men with mares, ewes, sows, &c, it's hard to imagine they'd even feel it, much less find it painful. :shrug:

...and you know all of this how?

No it's not. No-one's taught the animals they should feel feel shamed or degraded by sex -- those are human inventions.

Hadn't I refuted this rape apologist garbage once before? Trauma from being forcibly restrained and violently penetrated has nothing to do with "being taught".
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Immoral as long as I view rape as immoral.
Anthropomorphizing.

...and you know all of this how?
You've got a computer in front of you. Just go to some zoo (zoophilia) sites. Check out the forums, videos, discussion groups and studies.



Hadn't I refuted this rape apologist garbage once before? Trauma from being forcibly restrained and violently penetrated has nothing to do with "being taught".[/quote]The point is, shame and degradation are human things, to animals sex is just one more odd thing humans do with them.
And who said anything about "forcible restraint" or "violent penetration?"
 
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