Is being gay a sin according to your religion?

[leibowde84]

Well, perhaps they are right !!!! I used that site !!!! so what ?

I think their issue with it is bias. They base their arguments on the Bible being accurate rather than actual verifiable evidence.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

You may be one of those scholars, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you overestimate those who support your position. The truth is, it is an opinion

Your position is an opinion as well, but it isn't overstated to say that the majority of modern scholars agree with Ehrman and other critical textual professors. Even NT Wright would concede that the gospels are not reliable first hand eyewitness accounts, as conservative as he is.

 

[leibowde84]

A bit of circumstantial evidence to consider. According to your theory, the early Church fathers entered into a conspiracy to write down unatributable stories, as first hand fact, manufacturing alleged Apostles, as the absolute writers. Now these stories they wrote, and lied about, have as a foundation principle of always being truthful and honest., OK, liars and con men can say anything, if they perceive an advantage to them. However, these very same men who perpetrated your lie were persecuted, and many died horrible deaths, defending what they had written, standing by their lies, rather than recant. No doubt someone reading this will find a psychological report that alleges to explain this phenomenon. However, I have 25 years of dealing with liars and fraudsters, I have interacted with hundreds of them, and not one would rather die than cop out to their lie. My experience is not unique, I say with absolute assurance that thousands of police officers, criminal investigators, and lawyers would confirm my experience. It is totally irrational to me to believe that liars would write stories, in which they lie about them being first hand accounts, lie about the authors, in which truthfulness is required so strongly, gain virtually no advantage or profit for writing them, in fact they suffer persecution for believing and practicing belief in the lies they have written, and some are brutally tortured and die, rather than recant their belief in their own lies. No sir, that is a myth too ridiculous to believe

The early Church Fathers never claimed that the gospels were written by the men for which they were named. That was a false assumption developed later on, and has been pretty much dismissed by historians.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

The early Church Fathers never claimed that the gospels were written by the men for which they were named. That was a false assumption developed later on, and has been pretty much dismissed by historians.

Indeed church fathers such as Origen knew the problems with texts such as Matthew. He gave a good deal of time to the many variants of Matthew that existed in his day, as did Jerome.

 

[InChrist]

Prove that statement. Prove that it's not "who people are," and prove that it's not "who God intended them to be." That was the gauntlet of my post. Prove. It. Not "I think."


I have known several friends, have several family members, and have counseled professionally with several people over the years who claim to be homosexual. Without exception, they have all had the experience that that is who they are, and when a few tried to change, they became suicidal, and were not happy and well-adjusted until they came to grips with the reality of their situation, and came to their own conclusions about what God "wanted for them."


Once again: Prove it. One bible verse. Just one that explains in detail exactly why homosexuality is "sinful" and an "abomination." That's all I ask. I can say that with confidence, because It ain't in there. If it ain't in there, it's opinion, not fact. Just because it's "in the bible," doesn't mean it's factual. And until it is factual, we have no business foisting judgment upon those who identify as such. None. Period.

It may not be enough for you, but for me the totality of God's word is enough to prove that anything outside of God's design and will is sin, homosexuality being one of many. The scriptures state that man was made in the image of God... So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.(Gen. 1:27). The image of God is represented in male and female, not only male and not only female. As I previously pointed out in Ephesians the union of Christ and the church is pictured in the union and marriage between a man and a woman. I think the real issue is not that homosexuality is a sin, but rather that any sexuality or any behavior for that matter which is outside of God's design and will cannot bring ultimate happiness for anyone. Instead it brings confusion and self-destruction.

"That brings us to the word "destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 ...
... when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power ...
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

The word "destruction" in verse 9 does not mean "annihilation." Both the word itself (ὄλεθρος) and its context tell otherwise. Anyone who undergoes destruction is ruined - meaning he is eternally kept from living out the telos that defines him at the core of his being.

Homosexuality, then, is all about destruction: it threatens to leave the men and women who fall victim to it, including those who condone it, without significance and purpose - adrift in a sea of cosmic meaninglessness - a kind of hell they've willingly given themselves over to."
http://discipleshipproject.us/homosexualityexc.html

 

[leibowde84]

It may not be enough for you, but for me the totality of God's word is enough to prove that anything outside of God's design and will is sin, homosexuality being one of many. The scriptures state that man was made in the image of God... So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.(Gen. 1:27). The image of God is represented in male and female, not only male and not only female. As I previously pointed out in Ephesians the union of Christ and the church is pictured in the union and marriage between a man and a woman. I think the real issue is not that homosexuality is a sin, but rather that any sexuality or any behavior for that matter which is outside of God's design and will cannot bring ultimate happiness for anyone. Instead it brings confusion and self-destruction.

"That brings us to the word "destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 ...
... when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power ...
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

The word "destruction" in verse 9 does not mean "annihilation." Both the word itself (ὄλεθρος) and its context tell otherwise. Anyone who undergoes destruction is ruined - meaning he is eternally kept from living out the telos that defines him at the core of his being.

Homosexuality, then, is all about destruction: it threatens to leave the men and women who fall victim to it, including those who condone it, without significance and purpose - adrift in a sea of cosmic meaninglessness - a kind of hell they've willingly given themselves over to."
http://discipleshipproject.us/homosexualityexc.html

Beyond "God's word", do you have any reasoning for your belief that homosexuality is a sin?

 

[InChrist]

I find this to be a very condescending and demeaning way to view your friends - as if they aren't whole because they aren't what you think they should be.

Your friend can be quite happy in her relationship and still have separate rage issues against a person who molested her. I don't know if you are implying that she is gay because she was molested, but that's not a view that really holds any water. There are plenty of heterosexual people who have been molested and I doubt you'd say they are heterosexual because they were molested.

I am saying any person who practices any sexual (or other) behavior outside of God's design and will is not whole in the way God desires and planned wholeness (holiness) for each person. Without the wholeness of God's design I don't believe there can be true happiness. Yes, there are heterosexual people who have been molested. I have some close friends who were. I'm not saying that such experiences cause homosexuality, but such experiences, I believe, do contribute to varying degrees of confused and perverted practices of sexuality, which may include homosexuality.

 

[InChrist]

Beyond "God's word", do you have any reasoning for your belief that homosexuality is a sin?

I personally don't feel I need anything beyond God's word, but in the the real world I see that sexuality outside of God's design doesn't bring lasting satisfaction or fulfillment and does bring much heartache, emptiness and varying degrees of physical and emotional ailments.

 

[viole]

I am saying any person who practices any sexual (or other) behavior outside of God's design and will is not whole in the way God desires and planned wholeness (holiness) for each person. Without the wholeness of God's design I don't believe there can be true happiness. Yes, there are heterosexual people who have been molested. I have some close friends who were. I'm not saying that such experiences cause homosexuality, but such experiences, I believe, do contribute to varying degrees of confused and perverted practices of sexuality, which may include homosexuality.

The only sexual perversion I see here is judging as a perversion what willing adults decide to do on their beds.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

I personally don't feel I need anything beyond God's word, but in the the real world I see that sexuality outside of God's design doesn't bring lasting satisfaction or fulfillment and does bring much heartache, emptiness and varying degrees of physical and emotional ailments.

How do you know? Have you tried it?

Ciao

- viole

 

[SkepticThinker]

It may not be enough for you, but for me the totality of God's word is enough to prove that anything outside of God's design and will is sin, homosexuality being one of many. The scriptures state that man was made in the image of God... So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.(Gen. 1:27). The image of God is represented in male and female, not only male and not only female. As I previously pointed out in Ephesians the union of Christ and the church is pictured in the union and marriage between a man and a woman. I think the real issue is not that homosexuality is a sin, but rather that any sexuality or any behavior for that matter which is outside of God's design and will cannot bring ultimate happiness for anyone. Instead it brings confusion and self-destruction.

"That brings us to the word "destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 ...
... when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power ...
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

The word "destruction" in verse 9 does not mean "annihilation." Both the word itself (ὄλεθρος) and its context tell otherwise. Anyone who undergoes destruction is ruined - meaning he is eternally kept from living out the telos that defines him at the core of his being.

Homosexuality, then, is all about destruction: it threatens to leave the men and women who fall victim to it, including those who condone it, without significance and purpose - adrift in a sea of cosmic meaninglessness - a kind of hell they've willingly given themselves over to."
http://discipleshipproject.us/homosexualityexc.html

Except that it does bring happiness to many people. More happiness than pretending to be somebody they're not and living a lie.

 

[leibowde84]

I personally don't feel I need anything beyond God's word, but in the the real world I see that sexuality outside of God's design doesn't bring lasting satisfaction or fulfillment and does bring much heartache, emptiness and varying degrees of physical and emotional ailments.

I don't agree, as most of the same sex couples I know personally contradict these claims. But, what evidence leads you to believe this? Can you point to any studies that show this from a psychological perspective?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I personally don't feel I need anything beyond God's word, but in the the real world I see that sexuality outside of God's design doesn't bring lasting satisfaction or fulfillment and does bring much heartache, emptiness and varying degrees of physical and emotional ailments.

In your opinion. There are many happy and loving gay couples. The heartache you speak of is usually inflicted by prejudice, and people unwilling to accept gay people in any sense, or even acknowledge their dignity or personhood.

How convenient to blame the victim...

 

[InChrist]

The only sexual perversion I see here is judging as a perversion what willing adults decide to do on their beds.

Ciao

- viole

I'm sorry. I am really not judging you or anyone. I actually don't think and I don't believe God expects non-believers to desire or even be able to live by His design related to sexuality or anything else. I do think God desires that all come to Him for freedom and deliverance from anything that is outside His wisdom and will for each of us. I think when we do therein we find wholeness and eternal fulfillment and joy. This coming to Him is something between each person and God, who alone is the judge.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I am saying any person who practices any sexual (or other) behavior outside of God's design and will is not whole in the way God desires and planned wholeness (holiness) for each person.
Without the wholeness of God's design I don't believe there can be true happiness. Yes, there are heterosexual people who have been molested. I have some close friends who were. I'm not saying that such experiences cause homosexuality, but such experiences, I believe, do contribute to varying degrees of confused and perverted practices of sexuality, which may include homosexuality.

You basically just said that getting molested doesn't cause homosexuality, except when it does.

Again, I find this to be a really demeaning way to look at your fellow human beings. As if they're not "whole" unless they conform to your beliefs about what you think a god wants. That's pretty presumptuous.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm sorry. I am really not judging you or anyone. I actually don't think and I don't believe God expects non-believers to desire or even be able to live by His design related to sexuality or anything else. I do think God desires that all come to Him for freedom and deliverance from anything that is outside His wisdom and will for each of us. I think when we do therein we find wholeness and eternal fulfillment and joy. This coming to Him is something between each person and God, who alone is the judge.

That's easy to say when you've never struggled with your sexual orientation or gender identity. It's no issue saying god makes you fulfilled when there is no pressure on conforming to sexual and gender norms.

 

[shmogie]

The early Church Fathers never claimed that the gospels were written by the men for which they were named. That was a false assumption developed later on, and has been pretty much dismissed by historians.

uh, the names are inherent in the text. Evidence ?

 

[leibowde84]

uh, the names are inherent in the text. Evidence ?

Texts back then were often named in that way. The books were named for the apostles, not written by them. At least that is what the evidence tells us. In other words, the authors weren't trying to trick us. They were honoring the apostles.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Just to add, that in the case of Matthew- that gospel may not have originally been named for him. Origen and others refer to Matthew by the name 'Gospel of the Hebrews', as well as 'Gospel of the Ebionites, Nazarenes, etc'

These were all variants of Matthew as we today have it, and Jerome admits he as good as coined the name 'Gospel of Matthew'.

 

[leibowde84]

uh, the names are inherent in the text. Evidence ?

Luke is an exception though. Apparently historians do think that Luke, who traveled with Paul, did write that Gospel. But, unfortunately both Luke and Paul never met Jesus.