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Is being gay a sin according to your religion?

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Sorry, they aren't a truly Bible based organization, they have a big ol book that to them is equal to the Bible
Yes. They are. Boy! You're biased and judgmental about everyone who isn't just like you, aren't you! Just because they have further scriptures doesn't mean that they're not "bible-based." I disagree with the validity of the other scriptures, but I will defend that they are Christian, and that they do follow the bible.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
God literally changes people, by their choice, their conviction, their faith, I know it because I have seen it
You think you've seen it. If it's happened, it's likely because the person was confused about their sexuality to begin with, or that they're living a lie now.

I wish people would READ what is written, instead of what you want to see
I wish you would see things for what they are, instead of what you want to see.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Sigh, How do I know people who are homosexuals actually are, Duh, I take their word for it. Once again, you didn't read, I said I knew nothing about that kind of therapy and wasn't qualified to address it. I have never seen such a bunch of hypersensitive, looking for any excuse to condemn people in my life. Pick, pick, pick. We are all free to believe what we choose, as long as you have certified it as the only thing we can choose. What utter bull
12321604_10153942190001798_7929320264580223403_n.jpg


So, Bonhoeffer was bull, then?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Here are some things for YOU to Google in case you want to get the real scoop, not the plastic information which you have clearly gobbled up like the world's ending:

#1) captives of war, something one of the verses you quoted dealt with, and what the difference is from the events of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade

#2) the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade itself, because I honestly question how much you ACTUALLY know concerning what was going on.

#3) Post-Exile Jews and slavery? You must mean indentured servitude....

LOL! You continue to try to muddy the waters.

I have already given links for both the Hebrew texts, and the slave trade, up to the Civil War.

As shown, the religions of Abraham - held real slaves, bred them, passed them on as an inheritance to one's children, etc., right up to the Civil War.

If you would like to - actually - attempt to rebut my provided information, - then give actual links and data to rebut it!

*
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Well the evidence of the Gospels stand up to scrutiny, if they were bogus stories I doubt that the parts of them that show total weakness on the part of their writers would have been written. There is virtually no doubt that the Gospels were written around 100 AD, and it is stated that 500 people saw the resurrected Christ, and many were still alive, now if that wasn't true, a really unbelievable thing, don't you think that some record of someone rebutting the statement would exist ? Did a whole group of people lie about this for some unknown nefarious purpose ? They make total sense from the standpoint of geography, customs and beliefs of the time, and historical fact, For decades the name of the Roman governor at the time of Christ given in the Bible was doubted, Pilate, because it was not found on any lists of governors in Judea, but finally an engraved marble stele was found near the governors mansion that stated Pilate was governor in the reign of the emperor in power at the time of Christ. For me the answer to some deep philosophical problems can be found in Christianity. I have read Kierkergard, Pascal and other philosophers on these issues. Why is there anything ? Can nothing produce something ? Why does mankind seem to have an inherent cross cultural sense of right and wrong ? Does evil exist, and if so, why is it evil ? anyway you get the idea.

Speaking to what I emphasized, that is patently false. According to Burton Mack (Mack & Ryan, 1997) the earliest accepted time would be about 140 CE. And Greenburg (2011) states : "All four Gospels were written anonymously and, based on the writings of the early church fathers, for close to two centuries after they were written, Christians had no idea who wrote them". So as you can see, there are many who disagree and when I ay many, I could easily name quite a number of people, even those from antiquity but it is 2AM and my mother is sleeping.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
this is simply untrue. There is absolutely no reason to doubt that three of the Gospel writers knew Christ. The letters that were circulated throughout the Apostolic Christian congregations, they were, uh, you know, letters i.e. written. The book of Revelation from the very beginning speaks of it being written down. If it is "widely accepted" the width of it is pretty narrow, probably limited to the "Jesus project" where I think you get most of your talking points. The idea's you present as "widely accepted" are not accepted by the overwhelming majority of Biblical scholars
You would be wrong. As one of those scholars myself, I researched this thoroughly and found most scholars agreed with me and people like Erhman, and King and Fox an Swinton and on and on.
 

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member



LOL! You continue to try to muddy the waters.

I have already given links for both the Hebrew texts, and the slave trade, up to the Civil War.

As shown, the religions of Abraham - held real slaves, bred them, passed them on as an inheritance to one's children, etc., right up to the Civil War.

If you would like to - actually - attempt to rebut my provided information, - then give actual links and data to rebut it!

*

Ingledsva, my dear, I must say that you have proven yourself well-researched on the subject of Judeo-Christianity and slavery, so in lieu of this, I say challenge happily accepted!

From the Jewish Encyclopedia website (the same from which you cited ) concerning Hebrew slaves in general:

“The duty of treating the Hebrew servant and handmaid otherwise than as slaves, and above all their retention in service for a limited time only, was deemed by the lawgiver of such importance that the subject was put next to the Decalogue at the very head of civil legislation (Ex. xxi. 2-11). It is treated in its legal bearings also (Lev. xxv. 39-54; Deut. xv. 12-18). The prophet Jeremiah (Jer. xxxiv. 8-24) denounces the permanent enslavement of Hebrew men and women by their masters as the gravest of national sins, for which the kingdom of Judah forfeits all claim to God's mercy, and justly sinks into ruin and exile.”

And additionally, concerning the amount of work required for a slave:

“The Hebrew servant, Scripture says (Lev. xxv. 43), must not be treated with rigor. This was held to mean that no needless work must be imposed on him for the purpose of keeping him under discipline; nor, as Maimonides thinks, any unlimited task such as might be imposed by the command: "Work on till I come!" Nor must he be put to bondman's work (ib. verse 39), i.e., to any humiliating task, such as only slaves perform; and if practicable, he should be set to the same trade in which he was engaged while a freeman.”

Concerning foreign-born slaves:

“ The Israelite is permitted by Lev. xxv. 44-46 to buy bondmen and bondwomen (in the true sense of the word) from among the surrounding nations, or from the strangers dwelling in his land, and from the descendants of these born in the land; the "indwelling" stranger being distinguished from the stranger who lives under the same law as the Israelite. Such bondmen or bondwomen become a possession, and are inherited by children like other property. But the law limits the absolute power of the master. If he strikes his bondman or bondwoman so as to cause the loss of an eye or a tooth, he or she goes free. If he smites him or her so as to cause death on the same day, the deed is avenged as a murder; but not when death ensues on a subsequent day (Ex. xxi. 20, 21, 26, 27). Another alleviation of bondage is the law (Deut. xxiii. 16, 17) forbidding the return of a fugitive slave to his master by those among whom he seeks shelter. The religious status of bondmen owned by Israelites is well defined by the Scriptures, which make them an integral part of the community. The males, though of foreign blood, whether bought for money, or "born in the house," are to be circumcised (Gen. xvii. 27; Ex. xii. 44), and when circumcised are to be admitted to eat of the Passover meal (ib.). Likewise the bondmen or bondwomen of a priest may eat of his holy meats (Lev. xxii. 11). Neither bondmen nor bondwomen are to be required to work on the Sabbath (Ex. xx. 10); indeed, the opportunity for the "son of thy handmaid" to have a "breathing-space" (A. V. "may be refreshed") is mentioned as one of the great motives for the institution of the Sabbath.(Ex. xxii)”

Concerning the manner in which slaves were to be regarded in Talmudic Law, the Jewish Virtual Library has this to say:

“In the case of a pauper who sells himself into slavery or a man who is redeemed from bondage to a stranger, no distinction may be made between a slave and a hired laborer (Lev. 25:40, 53). A master may not rule ruthlessly over these slaves (Lev. 25:43, 46, 53) nor ill-treat them (Deut. 23:17); Ben Sira adds: "If thou treat him ill and he proceeds to run away, in what way shalt thou find him?" (Ecclus. 33:31). A master may chastise his slave to a reasonable extent (Ecclus. 33:26) but not wound him (Ex. 21:26–27). The workload of a slave should never exceed his physical strength (Ecclus. 33:28–29). A fugitive slave must not be turned over to his master but given refuge (Deut. 23:16). There was no similar rule prevailing in neighboring countries (cf. I Kings 2:39–40). The*abduction of a person for sale into bondage is a capital offense (Ex. 21:16; Deut. 24:7). In general, "thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt" (Deut. 15:15), and that you are now the slaves of God Who redeemed you from Egypt (Lev. 25:55).”

Additionally,

“The biblical "for to the double of the hire of a hireling hath heserved thee six years" (Deut. 15:18) was interpreted as allowing slaves to be given double the work of hired laborers: while the latter work only during daytime, slaves may be required to work also at night (Sif. Deut. 123). The Talmud (Kid. 15a) states that this merely gives the master the right to give the slave a bondwoman in order to beget children. There is some early authority to the effect that a slave has no right to maintenance which can be enforced in law, notwithstanding his obligation to work (Git. 1:6; Git. 12a), the biblical "he fareth well with thee" (Deut. 15:16) being attributed to Hebrew slaves only (Kid. 22a). However, the predominant view, as expressed by Maimonides, is: "It is permissible to work the slave hard; but while this is the law, the ways of ethics and prudence are that the master should be just and merciful, not make the yoke too heavy on his slave, and not press him too hard; and that he should give him of all food and drink. And thus the early sages used to do – they gave their slaves of everything they ate and drank themselves, and had food served to their slaves even before partaking of it themselves… Slaves may not be maltreated or offended – the law destined them for service, not for humiliation. Do not shout at them or be angry with them, but hear them out, as it is written [Job 31:13–14]: 'If I did despise the cause of my man-servant or maid-servant when they contended with me, what then shall I do when God riseth up? and when He remembereth what shall I answer?'" (Yad, Avadim 9:8; and cf. YD 267:17). In another context, Maimonides says of the laws relating to slavery that they are all "mercy, compassion, and forbearance": "You are in duty bound to see that your slave makes progress; you must benefit him and must not hurt him with words. He ought to rise and advance with you, be with you in the place you chose for yourself, and when fortune is good to you, do not grudge him his portion" (Guide 3:39).”

In regards to Post-Talmudic Law, the JVL says as quoted:

“Slavery became practically extinct in the Diaspora, and was prohibited except insofar as the secular laws allowed it, for instance, where rulers sold tax defaulters into bondage or offered prisoners of war for sale into slavery (Yad, Avadim 9:4; Tur and Sh. Ar., YD 267:18). However, it was laid down that even these "slaves" ought not to be treated as such, except if they did not conduct themselves properly (Yad, Avadim 1:8; YD 267:16). An incident related in the Talmud (BM 73b) was relied on as a precedent for the proposition that bondage may be imposed as punishment for misconduct (YD 267:15).”

From chabad.org's article, Torah, Slavery, and the Jews on the subject, quoting Maimonides and the Mishneh Torah:

“It is permissible to work a non-Jewish servant harshly. Yet, although this is the law, the way of the pious and the wise is to be compassionate and to pursue justice, not to overburden or oppress a servant, and to provide them from every dish and every drink.

The early sages would give their servants from every dish on their table. They would feed their animals and their servants before sitting to their own meals. Does it not say (Psalms 123:2), "As the eyes of the servant to the hand of his master; as the eyes of the maid to her mistress [so our eyes are towards the L-rd our G‑d...]"?

So, too, you should not denigrate a servant, neither physically nor verbally. The Torah made him your servant to do work, not to be disgraced. Do not treat him with constant screaming and anger, rather speak with him pleasantly and listen to his complaints. Such were the good ways in which Job took pride when he said, "Did I ever despise the judgment of my servant and my maid when they argued with me? Did not my Maker make him, too, in the belly; did not the same One form us both in the womb?"

For anger and cruelty are only found among other nations. The children of Abraham, our father--and they are Israel, to whom the Holy One, blessed be He, has provided the goodness of Torah and commanded us righteous judgments and statutes--they are compassionate to all. This is one of the attributes of the Holy One, blessed be He, that we are commanded to emulate (Psalms 145:9): "And He has compassion for all He has made."

Furthermore, all who have compassion will be treated compassionately, as was stated (Deuteronomy 13:18), "He will give you compassion and He will have compassion upon you and multiply you." ”

(Mishneh Torah, Laws of Indentured Servants, 9:8)

Sources?

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/slavery.html#2

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13799-slaves-and-slavery

My apologies in advance for the incompleteness of the source listing. It is now almost 3 am, and I am quite tired. I will end this portion with wishing you well.
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
You would be wrong. As one of those scholars myself, I researched this thoroughly and found most scholars agreed with me and people like Erhman, and King and Fox an Swinton and on and on.
You may be one of those scholars, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you overestimate those who support your position. The truth is, it is an opinion
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Speaking to what I emphasized, that is patently false. According to Burton Mack (Mack & Ryan, 1997) the earliest accepted time would be about 140 CE. And Greenburg (2011) states : "All four Gospels were written anonymously and, based on the writings of the early church fathers, for close to two centuries after they were written, Christians had no idea who wrote them". So as you can see, there are many who disagree and when I ay many, I could easily name quite a number of people, even those from antiquity but it is 2AM and my mother is sleeping.
I assume that you can produce these alleged writings of the Church fathers ? That is, anonymous Gospels totally consistent with the canonical Gospels, just with no names attributing an author ? Are there appropriate period documents that state the Gospel's were circulating, but no one knows who wrote them ? Citations are all well and good, but you know I could counter name for name, qualifications for qualifitions ad infinitum, I will if you choose. You know these.scholars state the Gospels were in circulation, very early in the second century, I will produce evidence for you re the 100 AD possible date,. I will get back to you. I trust your mother slept well.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Better watch out for angry toads then. :p
th
Where I live, we get monsoon rains in the summer, and the Colorado River desert toads come in in great numbers from underground, I have seen the roads in places so full of their bodies, cars slip in the mess. I haven't yet seen one truly pissed off, if I do, I will think of you, and run !
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Where I live, we get monsoon rains in the summer, and the Colorado River desert toads come in in great numbers from underground, I have seen the roads in places so full of their bodies, cars slip in the mess. I haven't yet seen one truly pissed off, if I do, I will think of you, and run !
Uh oh, I hope none of them were people whom god had turned into a toad! :eek:
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I assume that you can produce these alleged writings of the Church fathers ? That is, anonymous Gospels totally consistent with the canonical Gospels, just with no names attributing an author ? Are there appropriate period documents that state the Gospel's were circulating, but no one knows who wrote them ? Citations are all well and good, but you know I could counter name for name, qualifications for qualifitions ad infinitum, I will if you choose. You know these.scholars state the Gospels were in circulation, very early in the second century, I will produce evidence for you re the 100 AD possible date,. I will get back to you. I trust your mother slept well.
A bit of circumstantial evidence to consider. According to your theory, the early Church fathers entered into a conspiracy to write down unatributable stories, as first hand fact, manufacturing alleged Apostles, as the absolute writers. Now these stories they wrote, and lied about, have as a foundation principle of always being truthful and honest., OK, liars and con men can say anything, if they perceive an advantage to them. However, these very same men who perpetrated your lie were persecuted, and many died horrible deaths, defending what they had written, standing by their lies, rather than recant. No doubt someone reading this will find a psychological report that alleges to explain this phenomenon. However, I have 25 years of dealing with liars and fraudsters, I have interacted with hundreds of them, and not one would rather die than cop out to their lie. My experience is not unique, I say with absolute assurance that thousands of police officers, criminal investigators, and lawyers would confirm my experience. It is totally irrational to me to believe that liars would write stories, in which they lie about them being first hand accounts, lie about the authors, in which truthfulness is required so strongly, gain virtually no advantage or profit for writing them, in fact they suffer persecution for believing and practicing belief in the lies they have written, and some are brutally tortured and die, rather than recant their belief in their own lies. No sir, that is a myth too ridiculous to believe
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I think nature proves the Bible idea of only male and female pairs coming together - and anything else being sin - is false.

If a God created everything, - then It created homosexuality, and other variations of sex, - which we see throughout the animal kingdom, including critters that change sex depending on temperature and need, etc.

That Bible idea is proven false - by what actually is.

*
From my perspective nature only proves, as the scriptures indicate, that all of creation is impacted by the fall of humanity and sin...

"Is it any wonder, then, that - given mankind's inherent corruption and the condemnation we intuitively sense - anguish, suffering, and heartache have been our on-going lot? The terror spawned by war; the horror of slavery - still today plaguing millions; noisome disease; a mother's agony at her child's grave site; crippling accidents; birth defects; wrongful convictions; the guilty set free; the grief arising from infidelity and divorce; abusive authority; and the list goes on and on - and includes the bondage of homosexuality. There's no end to it.


But that's not all. Nature itself has been dragged into sin's wake. Animals and plants grapple with disease and death as well. Even the earth itself is crushed under its weight - and reflects the anguish it causes: the 2005 Indonesian tsunami, the 2011 Japanese tsunami, Hurricane Katrina, the earthquake that leveled Haiti - it all bears witness to the horror wrought by sin.


For we know that all creation groans ... in pain . . .


Rom. 8:22 "


http://discipleshipproject.us/homosexualitypag.html
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Presumably you have never heard of the fact that humanity became not what God intended, but a broken parody of what he intended. He never intended rape, poverty, murder, incest, the atom bomb, war, exploitation of one human by another and on and on it goes. You are broken, as am I, I just realize it

If everyone is broken, why should we not try to exploit the next broken one? Do I run any risk to break him or myself even more?

By the way, do you think there was a time in our evolutionary past when we were not broken?

Ciao

- viole
 
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