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Is being gay a sin according to your religion?

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Eyewitness testimony isn't all that reliable to begin with. Humans are prone to all sorts of errors in perception and memory.
Yes, I have seen people who describe the same crime totally different from each other. I have seen witnesses describe the same person they saw at the same time totally differently. I have also seen witnesses who are accurate, and direct, who corroborate one another with no collusion. As to the Apostles description of events in the Bible........................ There are a certain class of witnesses described as "trained observers", for whom you try and make the case for added weight given to their testimony because they are in this class. Certainly the Apostles tasked by God to observe and report must be given the highest marks for accuracy, God intended their words to be a true representation of him
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Yes, I have seen people who describe the same crime totally different from each other. I have seen witnesses describe the same person they saw at the same time totally differently. I have also seen witnesses who are accurate, and direct, who corroborate one another with no collusion.
Right. The human mind is a lot faultier than we like to think when it comes to things like that.

As to the Apostles description of events in the Bible........................ There are a certain class of witnesses described as "trained observers", for whom you try and make the case for added weight given to their testimony because they are in this class. Certainly the Apostles tasked by God to observe and report must be given the highest marks for accuracy, God intended their words to be a true representation of him

That's just an assumption you're making based on your preconceived notion that the Bible is the inspired word of god. We can't just assume these people were special "trained observers" just because we might want it to be true. Wishful thinking doesn't cut it for me.

I see no demonstrable reason to think people who wrote the Bible were less prone to the same errors as every other human on the planet, and I don't think it's even a fact that any of those people were eyewitness to anything in the first place.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I find it a little difficult to figure out the main point or question you are trying to get across, but I will try to respond the best I can and you may clarify your point or question if you think necessary.

First, I think the behavior of a rapist is sinful whoever they are or whatever relationship they are in because their behavior is using and defrauding another person for their own self-centered reasons.

Secondly, I think there is more to marriage than love, friendship, family, job, house, children, etc. Previously, I have posted that I believe the scriptures reveal that God created man in His image. Man meaning, not man alone or not female alone, but male and female represent the image of God. So a marriage between a male and female is a picture of God's image. In the NT it is also shown that marriage between a man and woman is a picture of the relationship between Christ and the church, His bride. This representation does not occur, nor is the wholeness of God's image displayed in a male/ male or female/ female union. According to the scriptures since sexual relations unite two as one they are reserved for the marriage between a male and female because it is this unity of male and female qualities which display God's image, whether in Christian or non-Christian marriages because God designed marriage as such, between male and female.

.

I just find holy matrimony does not depend on one one way of consummating ones love in a non-lustful way. In the Catholic Church, intercourse is preserved for procreation. Based on their logic, then yes, homosexuals cannot marry because the Church doesnt recognize consummation behind which parts fit where. As long as it is a healthy and natual consummation between two people regardless the gender I see no issue with it.

Its not rape.. Its not abuse. Its not prostitution Its not idolotry,

Its not in the Bible. If the Bible said "two people of the same gender cannot inter into holy matrimony because they do not have the ability to love each other as heterosexuals do, although I disagree, it is logical.

What the Bible says is that homoosexual (as per authors translation) acts (not people) are not to be practiced because they are alike to rape,, abuse, idolotry,etc. NOT love, consummation, and holy matrimony.

God is refering to a totally different context and intent of two or more people having sex out of lust. These people could be straight, bi, trans, gay, or lesbian. God doesnt differientate between these titles of ones sexual orientation and identity.

Take someone who is transgender. The Church denies this male marriage because of how he identifies himself as a female. To her not him, she is straight. To the outside, he is gay. In reality, he is not.

God does not mention this in the bible. Most likely it was never an issue until whomever struggled through it went against the cultural practices at that time. In Muslim countries, they may very well be lesbians of course but to go outside their religious and cultural practices is higher concern than how one identifies oneself (unless sommeone corrects me) Thats the same in african american culture and that I know for a fact. In many African American (I hate to say it that way) communities, the core of their community is Christ. Yet, depending on the area (really, depending) is how one accepts a person compared to another area.

Anyway, my point is context not content.

The way god is potrayed sounds like he is zues on star trek or something telling people to bow down to him and if they dont do X they will be punished. If god is that way, I just cant see it in reality. I cant see how life not a being or entity, but life can descriminate. We label life. Not the other way around.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Right. The human mind is a lot faultier than we like to think when it comes to things like that.



That's just an assumption you're making based on your preconceived notion that the Bible is the inspired word of god. We can't just assume these people were special "trained observers" just because we might want it to be true. Wishful thinking doesn't cut it for me.

I see no demonstrable reason to think people who wrote the Bible were less prone to the same errors as every other human on the planet, and I don't think it's even a fact that any of those people were eyewitness to anything in the first place.
Well, there is significant evidence that they were witnesses. As to the other, we agree to disagree
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I have Christian brothers and sisters in Christ who hold to varying views on non-essential points, yet we are all in agreement of the essentials in regard to Jesus Christ and the scriptures. Biblical Christianity is not a religion or cult where everyone always, looks, thinks, or acts exactly the same. It is a living relationship with Jesus Christ and as such, each person is at a different point and place of this relationship and understanding in their Christian life. The main point is that believers are all one in Christ and hopefully are continually and humbly seeking truth, wisdom, and direction from Jesus over self.
Would you consider putting God's will above what is claimed in the Bible is a good thing?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Well, there is significant evidence that they were witnesses. As to the other, we agree to disagree
Can you agree that your assumption that they are some kind of infallible, superhuman, special witnesses, is based on wishful thinking (hoping or wanting it to be true) on your part? And if not, what reason do you have to believe such a thing is true?

And I'm certainly no expert but I think it's generally accepted that they weren't eyewitnesses.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
To clarify my intentions, it was to bring to light the fullness of the text you cited, making sure it's presented as a whole and not being cherry-picked. Figures. I guess you didn't read the statement in bold print and the information which followed. You just nit-picked, ironically.

LOL! Well, obviously it backfired on you - as it PROVES exactly what I said.

*
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Wow! Once again, you have cherry-picked from a neutral source. Not even bothering yourself to read beyond what YOU seem to have highlighted...

LOL! And again - I don't have to cherry pick - it says EXACTLY what I said it did.

I just highlighted the parts that PROVED what I said was correct.


*
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I find it a little difficult to figure out the main point or question you are trying to get across, but I will try to respond the best I can and you may clarify your point or question if you think necessary.

First, I think the behavior of a rapist is sinful whoever they are or whatever relationship they are in because their behavior is using and defrauding another person for their own self-centered reasons.

Secondly, I think there is more to marriage than love, friendship, family, job, house, children, etc. Previously, I have posted that I believe the scriptures reveal that God created man in His image. Man meaning, not man alone or not female alone, but male and female represent the image of God. So a marriage between a male and female is a picture of God's image. In the NT it is also shown that marriage between a man and woman is a picture of the relationship between Christ and the church, His bride. This representation does not occur, nor is the wholeness of God's image displayed in a male/ male or female/ female union. According to the scriptures since sexual relations unite two as one they are reserved for the marriage between a male and female because it is this unity of male and female qualities which display God's image, whether in Christian or non-Christian marriages because God designed marriage as such, between male and female.

Uhmmm! "God" didn't design or invent marriage. It just says he made male and female - and as we can see from nature - we animals are all over the spectrum between the two.

According to the Bible - Adam and Chav'vah were just scr**ing. And the some of the Rabbis tell us Adam tried sex with all the animals first = bestiality. And then we go into incest, and all that stuff. And then these people when they got together - thought they needed to sacrifice the Firstborn that opened the womb.

Kind of makes one raise an eyebrow when Christians go on-and-on about marriage being sacred, and from "God," and only between heterosexuals.

There is no superiority of morals, or actions, in the Bible, or in any of the religions of Abraham.

*
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Well, there is significant evidence that they were witnesses. As to the other, we agree to disagree

Virgin birth? Raising the dead? Magic= sending out cloths they had touched for healing? More Magic = using the NAME of Jesus in spells, - which Jesus said other non-followers could also do? Dead people rising from graves and walking around the city?

LOL! Eyewitnesses? BULL? Just Made up stories by people that were not there, - to make Jesus appear more Godlike.

Some of them being made up from misreading or misunderstanding Hebrew texts, - such as the so-called "virgin" birth prophecy, which is not in Tanakh.

Or the EVIL Satan texts - again from a misreading-misunderstanding of Hebrew texts. There is no fall of Satan in the Hebrew texts. They misunderstood a text about the fall of a King of Babylon.

And it goes on-and-on, - which should be plenty of proof of them not being "witnesses."

*
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Virgin birth? Raising the dead? Magic= sending out cloths they had touched for healing? More Magic = using the NAME of Jesus in spells, - which Jesus said other non-followers could also do? Dead people rising from graves and walking around the city?

LOL! Eyewitnesses? BULL? Just Made up stories by people that were not there, - to make Jesus appear more Godlike.

Some of them being made up from misreading or misunderstanding Hebrew texts, - such as the so-called "virgin" birth prophecy, which is not in Tanakh.

Or the EVIL Satan texts - again from a misreading-misunderstanding of Hebrew texts. There is no fall of Satan in the Hebrew texts. They misunderstood a text about the fall of a King of Babylon.

And it goes on-and-on, - which should be plenty of proof of them not being "witnesses."

*
LOL, a universe creating itself, life bursting forth from inert chemicals, one celled creatures turning into humans. You take your mythical stories, I will keep mine
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Can you agree that your assumption that they are some kind of infallible, superhuman, special witnesses, is based on wishful thinking (hoping or wanting it to be true) on your part? And if not, what reason do you have to believe such a thing is true?

And I'm certainly no expert but I think it's generally accepted that they weren't eyewitnesses.
No, that is not generally accepted. There is a school of thought that says they weren't eyewitnesses, based upon the belief the texts didn't exist till around 140 AD. However there is very strong and significant evidence that the texts were written by 100 AD, and many, many scholars put the date to 50-80 AD and many of these people aren't believers, they have no axe to grind. A fragment of Mark was found with the dead sea scrolls, long before it was discovered , the contents of the cave were dated at 50 AD. So, the writers could very well have been eyewitnesses. There is significant evidence for me to believe that this is true, and my beliefs are true
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
Virgin birth? Raising the dead? Magic= sending out cloths they had touched for healing? More Magic = using the NAME of Jesus in spells, - which Jesus said other non-followers could also do? Dead people rising from graves and walking around the city?

LOL! Eyewitnesses? BULL? Just Made up stories by people that were not there, - to make Jesus appear more Godlike.

Some of them being made up from misreading or misunderstanding Hebrew texts, - such as the so-called "virgin" birth prophecy, which is not in Tanakh.

Or the EVIL Satan texts - again from a misreading-misunderstanding of Hebrew texts. There is no fall of Satan in the Hebrew texts. They misunderstood a text about the fall of a King of Babylon.

And it goes on-and-on, - which should be plenty of proof of them not being "witnesses."

LOL, a universe creating itself, life bursting forth from inert chemicals, one celled creatures turning into humans. You take your mythical stories, I will keep mine

LOL! You need a refresher course on that science.

Would you care to actually attempt to rebut what was said?

How is Jesus a "prophesized" "VIRGIN" birth, - when there is no such prophecy, or "virgin" birth in Tanakh?

How is Satan evil and fallen - when it does not say that in Tanakh? No fall in there. Satan is a servant of YHVH in Tanakh.

Magic is condemned in the Bible, - and by most Christians to this day. So how exactly is NT spell casting, and imbuing objects with magic power - OK? Or real?

*
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Uhmmm! "God" didn't design or invent marriage. It just says he made male and female - and as we can see from nature - we animals are all over the spectrum between the two.

According to the Bible - Adam and Chav'vah were just scr**ing. And the some of the Rabbis tell us Adam tried sex with all the animals first = bestiality. And then we go into incest, and all that stuff. And then these people when they got together - thought they needed to sacrifice the Firstborn that opened the womb.

Kind of makes one raise an eyebrow when Christians go on-and-on about marriage being sacred, and from "God," and only between heterosexuals.

There is no superiority of morals, or actions, in the Bible, or in any of the religions of Abraham.

*
Once again, you are wrong. Christ said marriage was between a man and a woman and sacred, as does the entire NT. Don't bother to respond, we have been down this road before, and your surmises and strange beliefs prove nothing. You can infer whatever you want from the animals, my dog, when a puppy ate her own poop, that can be very normal behavior for a dog, but when people do it, especially as part of deviant sex, it isn't normal. You seem irrational, and I really don't want to deal with you.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I just find holy matrimony does not depend on one one way of consummating ones love in a non-lustful way. In the Catholic Church, intercourse is preserved for procreation. Based on their logic, then yes, homosexuals cannot marry because the Church doesnt recognize consummation behind which parts fit where. As long as it is a healthy and natual consummation between two people regardless the gender I see no issue with it.

Its not rape.. Its not abuse. Its not prostitution Its not idolotry,

Its not in the Bible. If the Bible said "two people of the same gender cannot inter into holy matrimony because they do not have the ability to love each other as heterosexuals do, although I disagree, it is logical.

What the Bible says is that homoosexual (as per authors translation) acts (not people) are not to be practiced because they are alike to rape,, abuse, idolotry,etc. NOT love, consummation, and holy matrimony.

God is refering to a totally different context and intent of two or more people having sex out of lust. These people could be straight, bi, trans, gay, or lesbian. God doesnt differientate between these titles of ones sexual orientation and identity.

Take someone who is transgender. The Church denies this male marriage because of how he identifies himself as a female. To her not him, she is straight. To the outside, he is gay. In reality, he is not.

God does not mention this in the bible. Most likely it was never an issue until whomever struggled through it went against the cultural practices at that time. In Muslim countries, they may very well be lesbians of course but to go outside their religious and cultural practices is higher concern than how one identifies oneself (unless sommeone corrects me) Thats the same in african american culture and that I know for a fact. In many African American (I hate to say it that way) communities, the core of their community is Christ. Yet, depending on the area (really, depending) is how one accepts a person compared to another area.

Anyway, my point is context not content.

The way god is potrayed sounds like he is zues on star trek or something telling people to bow down to him and if they dont do X they will be punished. If god is that way, I just cant see it in reality. I cant see how life not a being or entity, but life can descriminate. We label life. Not the other way around.
Well, of course it is perfectly clear in the Bible. How far does this " I identify as " thing go, is someone an alien from Mars because he identifies as such, or a vampire, or a grapefruit ? How far, what are the boundaries ? Lets take that famous transgender guy, Bruce Jenner. What it boils down to is this, after all the surgery, all the slicing and dicing, he is still a male. Genetically he is, his skeleton identifies him as such, his voice identifies him as such, features, all of it. So, here is where people depart from reality, he lives a fantasy that he is a woman, and others agree to participate in his fantasy by pretending he is a woman too. Ludicrous. He can be whatever he thinks he is, even a vampire, as long as he doesn't hurt anyone, However, I don't believe in vampires, so I won't participate in his fantasy. He is just plain old Bruce, getting up there, long in the tooth, but is addicted to attention, ergo, to me, he is just an old man pretending to be a vampire so people will notice him, or, he is just plain insane
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Once again, you are wrong. Christ said marriage was between a man and a woman and sacred, as does the entire NT. Don't bother to respond, we have been down this road before, and your surmises and strange beliefs prove nothing. You can infer whatever you want from the animals, my dog, when a puppy ate her own poop, that can be very normal behavior for a dog, but when people do it, especially as part of deviant sex, it isn't normal. You seem irrational, and I really don't want to deal with you.

LOL! How exactly are we to take seriously the Abrahamic idea of marriage being only between heterosexuals, - as some kind of sacred moral sanction from a God, - when the same have their "God" producing - JUST SCR**WING, - BESTIALITY - INCEST - and murder of the Firstborn???

And you seem to have missed that it was RABBIS that said Adam had sex with the animals - not me. LOL!

Where does Jesus say marriage is ONLY between a man and a woman?

I hope you aren't going to try to use Matthew 19 - which doesn't actually say that. LOL!

It says Jesus was asked a question about ALREADY MARRIED heterosexual couples and if a man could just throw away his wife. They have already been joined as one.

*
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Well, of course it is perfectly clear in the Bible. How far does this " I identify as " thing go, is someone an alien from Mars because he identifies as such, or a vampire, or a grapefruit ? How far, what are the boundaries ? Lets take that famous transgender guy, Bruce Jenner. What it boils down to is this, after all the surgery, all the slicing and dicing, he is still a male. Genetically he is, his skeleton identifies him as such, his voice identifies him as such, features, all of it. So, here is where people depart from reality, he lives a fantasy that he is a woman, and others agree to participate in his fantasy by pretending he is a woman too. Ludicrous. He can be whatever he thinks he is, even a vampire, as long as he doesn't hurt anyone, However, I don't believe in vampires, so I won't participate in his fantasy. He is just plain old Bruce, getting up there, long in the tooth, but is addicted to attention, ergo, to me, he is just an old man pretending to be a vampire so people will notice him, or, he is just plain insane

I cant speak For transgender. Im a woman and in my mind and body says I am a woman. I can look like an alien, have fifty limbs, and no gentelia but if I still have the mindset I am now, I am still a woman. As a result, no matter what I look like, limbs and all doesnt make me fall into a fantasy world because I see myself as a woman and not an alien.

Youd have to speak with transgender. My cousin is born a man And is a woman. His internal organs are male, of course. When he had surgery, it was like his fantasy of being told he is a man broke away so he can be who he is, a woman.

No. I dont inderstand it. I dont call it a fantasy but instead I put myself in their shoes. I call my cousin a female outside of my misunderstanding of how she sees herself. Its NOT about me.

If they are women, who am I to say they are not? Like marriage, I dont see gender as a limitation on how sees oneself or who one marries.

Its important, yes and not to the point of denying who someone is by their internal and external organs.

:leafwind:

What I can speak for is myself as a lesbian. Sexual orientation is a part of who I am as a woman. Since I am not transgered, I am comfortable as a woman. I love the woman in how she thinks, how she relates to others say with family, with friends, etc which is different than a male interaction. I love the womans body, the womans mind, the womans soul.

If I were christian and god allowed marriage to ALL his people, holy matrimony would be my wife and I identity. Like color of the skin and other parts of me that onces was seen as below or sins, now we are coming from that. If we were christian, wed see ourselves in gods eyes.

If it is true that god sees only lust in us, that is one god we not want in our lives. Not because he cant define love for humans but if he defines love and puts down those he created who loves him in ALL types of ways, then that is not a god of unconditional love.

I put a lot of value in human rights and all. The divine or the spirits hold us together, they do not dictate how we should love but they ARE love. They are a part of us.

Who am I to deny anyone this relationship because they express matrimony differently because of who they are not who they are told to be.

Well, of course it is perfectly clear in the Bible. How far does this " I identify as " thing go, is someone an alien from Mars because he identifies as such, or a vampire, or a grapefruit ? How far, what are the boundaries ? Lets take that famous transgender guy, Bruce Jenner. What it boils down to is this, after all the surgery, all the slicing and dicing, he is still a male. Genetically he is, his skeleton identifies him as such, his voice identifies him as such, features, all of it. So, here is where people depart from reality, he lives a fantasy that he is a woman, and others agree to participate in his fantasy by pretending he is a woman too. Ludicrous. He can be whatever he thinks he is, even a vampire, as long as he doesn't hurt anyone, However, I don't believe in vampires, so I won't participate in his fantasy. He is just plain old Bruce, getting up there, long in the tooth, but is addicted to attention, ergo, to me, he is just an old man pretending to be a vampire so people will notice him, or, he is just plain insane
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Well, of course it is perfectly clear in the Bible. How far does this " I identify as " thing go, is someone an alien from Mars because he identifies as such, or a vampire, or a grapefruit ? How far, what are the boundaries ? Lets take that famous transgender guy, Bruce Jenner. What it boils down to is this, after all the surgery, all the slicing and dicing, he is still a male. Genetically he is, his skeleton identifies him as such, his voice identifies him as such, features, all of it. So, here is where people depart from reality, he lives a fantasy that he is a woman, and others agree to participate in his fantasy by pretending he is a woman too. Ludicrous. He can be whatever he thinks he is, even a vampire, as long as he doesn't hurt anyone, However, I don't believe in vampires, so I won't participate in his fantasy. He is just plain old Bruce, getting up there, long in the tooth, but is addicted to attention, ergo, to me, he is just an old man pretending to be a vampire so people will notice him, or, he is just plain insane
So you believe in a god that will turn people into toads, and that's your story and you're sticking to it, but people born with the brain of one sex but the body of the other and who start to live as the sex of their brain, that's ludicrous?
I'll just stop now before I get in trouble.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
No. I dont inderstand it. I dont call it a fantasy but instead I put myself in their shoes. I call my cousin a female outside of my misunderstanding of how she sees herself. Its NOT about me.
It's sad. You are doing something so very simple, nothing more than acknowledging your cousin for who she is, yet it fills me with gratitude.
When he had surgery, it was like his fantasy of being told he is a man broke away so he can be who he is, a woman.
That's pretty much how it is for me. The fantasy was telling myself that I'm a guy, that I can and should do all the guy things, but the charade left me feeling hollow and empty. I would be a fantasy if I were to stop now, revert, and live as a guy. But fantasies are supposed to be fun and delightful. That would be a nightmare that could only ever end once I'm dead. Even before I came out to anyone, people knew I didn't do the "guy thing" that well, they knew there was something very different about me, and some even thought I was gay.
 
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