Is being gay a sin according to your religion?

[shmogie]

You do realize that you were responding to yourself in this argument. One wonders if you are slightly left of center.

No, I was addressing you. I am always amused that when self proclaimed so called authorities are challenged, their arrogance leads many of them to that old staple, some form of personal ad hominem comment. No problem for me though, I am quite used to "experts" wilting, and lashing out

 

[leibowde84]

No, I was addressing you. I am always amused that when self proclaimed so called authorities are challenged, their arrogance leads many of them to that old staple, some form of personal ad hominem comment. No problem for me though, I am quite used to "experts" wilting, and lashing out

Can you cite where Jo claimed to be an expert or an authority? I'm not seeing it, and it seems as if you are being a bit dishonest.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm sure there is so much more to who you are and your identity as a person than your "sexual" identity

Im just being a devils advocate; I do know your position.

Think about this, though:

If a man and woman come together in holy matrimony, only god can say they are not. Say god approves of this marriage. Everything goes well with bumps expected. Children. Picket fence. Labor dog. Christian family. All is well. They are happy.

Another example, husband and wife, no children. Sin? No. Preference or medical reasons, yes.

Make one change

If a man and man come together in holy matrimony, only god can say they are not. Say god approves of this marriage. Everything goes well with bumps expected. Children. Picket fence. Labor dog. Christian family. All is well. They are happy.

Another example, husband and husband, no children. Sin? No. Preference or medical reasons, yes.

Now wait.

I just changed their gender. I did not change

1. Their relationship with christ
2. Their family relationship
3. Their mind
4. Their love NOT lust for each other
5. Their friendship
6. Their sexuality.

I JUST changed their gender.

I know you think they are unhappy because I took the wife out and placed a husband.

Logically (Im sure god is logical), changing your views on how these two People relate to each other based on gender has no realistic grounding. Especially based on gender.

If you said a rapist (not to compare gay to rapist thats wrong), and that rapist has a husband and they want children, how would your views change? Remember, they are still male and female.

As long as they are male and female its okay???

Or is there More to marriage than what is under a person's pants and/or behavior?

 

[shmogie]

Can you cite where Jo claimed to be an expert or an authority? I'm not seeing it, and it seems as if you are being a bit dishonest.

Well, he said he was one of the "scholars" who was involved in Biblical research. Does that make him a ham sandwich ? It seems you are being a bit sloppy in your reading of previous posts.

 

[shmogie]

Im just being a devils advocate; I do know your position.

Think about this, though:

If a man and woman come together in holy matrimony, only god can say they are not. Say god approves of this marriage. Everything goes well with bumps expected. Children. Picket fence. Labor dog. Christian family. All is well. They are happy.

Another example, husband and wife, no children. Sin? No. Preference or medical reasons, yes.

Make one change

If a man and man come together in holy matrimony, only god can say they are not. Say god approves of this marriage. Everything goes well with bumps expected. Children. Picket fence. Labor dog. Christian family. All is well. They are happy.

Another example, husband and husband, no children. Sin? No. Preference or medical reasons, yes.

Now wait.

I just changed their gender. I did not change

1. Their relationship with christ
2. Their family relationship
3. Their mind
4. Their love NOT lust for each other
5. Their friendship
6. Their sexuality.

I JUST changed their gender.

I know you think they are unhappy because I took the wife out and placed a husband.

Logically (Im sure god is logical), changing your views on how these two People relate to each other based on gender has no realistic grounding. Especially based on gender.

If you said a rapist (not to compare gay to rapist thats wrong), and that rapist has a husband and they want children, how would your views change? Remember, they are still male and female.

As long as they are male and female its okay???

Or is there More to marriage than what is under a person's pants and/or behavior?

I will answer your point, myself, I am sure inChrist has a better answer, but here goes. The realistic grounding of how they relate to each other, if one is a Christian, is what God says about it, not what you, or I, or anyone else thinks or believes. I question, based upon what I just wrote, whether their relationship to Christ is the same as that of the heterosexual couple..................................................................

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I will answer your point, myself, I am sure inChrist has a better answer, but here goes. The realistic grounding of how they relate to each other, if one is a Christian, is what God says about it, not what you, or I, or anyone else thinks or believes. I question, based upon what I just wrote, whether their relationship to Christ is the same as that of the heterosexual couple..................................................................

The only thing in the bible homosexuals cant do is marry. Everything else is based on intent. People who "had relations with the same gender as they did with the opposite" are not all gay people. These straight people probably never heard of the word applied as ones identity. That and biblical translators have their own bias when finding the closest words to original biblicial language. In other words, Id ask native speakers not translators.

God does not speak of any positive relationship between same gender. Yet, for some reason it is possible. Its not that god was wrong its that the bible doesnt have everything god says. Its based on time period for a completely different audience and style of writing.

What we are saying is homosexuals are people. We arent aliens. We arsnt different than heterosexuals. Christian homosexuals have he same meaningful relationships as christian heterosexuals.

Lust is not in either equation. If anything, long lasting homosexual christian marriages are not homosexual according to scripture. Scripture talks a out their flesh. Many of us our talking a out our heart.

Unless antihomosexuals can see the difference in people unlike themselves, how can they see god loves all christian relationships without looking at whats in their pants.

I can see jesus now looking down at couples all with the same intent and love.

"Nope, you cant get married"

"Yep, you can"

""Ooooh no. You cant"

Why not? Is it my heart? My behavior? My hair?

Nope. Just your gender.

Then you have people who try to change their gender just to feel accepted in gods eyes. Its sad.

 

[viole]

I will answer your point, myself, I am sure inChrist has a better answer, but here goes. The realistic grounding of how they relate to each other, if one is a Christian, is what God says about it, not what you, or I, or anyone else thinks or believes. I question, based upon what I just wrote, whether their relationship to Christ is the same as that of the heterosexual couple..................................................................

Do you think that Christians who believe the earth is 6000 years old have the same relationship with Christ as peopke who believe that the earth is a few billions years old? What about Christians who believe that the death penaly is a sin and Chrsitians who believe it is not? Are either the Amish or the southern Baptists no real Christians? What about evolution? Contraception? Divorce? Virginity? Hell as eternal torment vs. Hell as separation or termination?

Having the same relationship with God seems to be a bit fuzzy. My impression is that all these relationships with Christ reduce to converse with the Almighty about the waether or baseball, instead of enabling a common understanding of what God really wants.

Ciao

- viole

 

[InChrist]

Im just being a devils advocate; I do know your position.

Think about this, though:

If a man and woman come together in holy matrimony, only god can say they are not. Say god approves of this marriage. Everything goes well with bumps expected. Children. Picket fence. Labor dog. Christian family. All is well. They are happy.

Another example, husband and wife, no children. Sin? No. Preference or medical reasons, yes.

Make one change

If a man and man come together in holy matrimony, only god can say they are not. Say god approves of this marriage. Everything goes well with bumps expected. Children. Picket fence. Labor dog. Christian family. All is well. They are happy.

Another example, husband and husband, no children. Sin? No. Preference or medical reasons, yes.

Now wait.

I just changed their gender. I did not change

1. Their relationship with christ
2. Their family relationship
3. Their mind
4. Their love NOT lust for each other
5. Their friendship
6. Their sexuality.

I JUST changed their gender.

I know you think they are unhappy because I took the wife out and placed a husband.

Logically (Im sure god is logical), changing your views on how these two People relate to each other based on gender has no realistic grounding. Especially based on gender.

If you said a rapist (not to compare gay to rapist thats wrong), and that rapist has a husband and they want children, how would your views change? Remember, they are still male and female.

As long as they are male and female its okay???

Or is there More to marriage than what is under a person's pants and/or behavior?

I find it a little difficult to figure out the main point or question you are trying to get across, but I will try to respond the best I can and you may clarify your point or question if you think necessary.

First, I think the behavior of a rapist is sinful whoever they are or whatever relationship they are in because their behavior is using and defrauding another person for their own self-centered reasons.

Secondly, I think there is more to marriage than love, friendship, family, job, house, children, etc. Previously, I have posted that I believe the scriptures reveal that God created man in His image. Man meaning, not man alone or not female alone, but male and female represent the image of God. So a marriage between a male and female is a picture of God's image. In the NT it is also shown that marriage between a man and woman is a picture of the relationship between Christ and the church, His bride. This representation does not occur, nor is the wholeness of God's image displayed in a male/ male or female/ female union. According to the scriptures since sexual relations unite two as one they are reserved for the marriage between a male and female because it is this unity of male and female qualities which display God's image, whether in Christian or non-Christian marriages because God designed marriage as such, between male and female.

.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I wasn't talking specifically about an afterlife. I was talking about true philosophical questions. Why contribute to the betterment of others ? They are going to be just as dead as me in a flicker of time. Why do you think it is "good" to contribute to the betterment of others ? Who decides what is "good" ?

Why contribute to the betterment of others? Because I care about others. Because I feel that we are lucky to spend one brief lifetime on this magnificent planet in this amazing universe and so we should make the most of every single second of this precious life we get, for both ourselves, and for others we share the planet with.

I decide what is good. Just like you do.

 

[InChrist]

Do you think that Christians who believe the earth is 6000 years old have the same relationship with Christ as peopke who believe that the earth is a few billions years old? What about Christians who believe that the death penaly is a sin and Chrsitians who believe it is not? Are either the Amish or the southern Baptists no real Christians? What about evolution? Contraception? Divorce? Virginity? Hell as eternal torment vs. Hell as separation or termination?

Having the same relationship with God seems to be a bit fuzzy. My impression is that all these relationships with Christ reduce to converse with the Almighty about the waether or baseball, instead of enabling a common understanding of what God really wants.

Ciao

- viole

I have Christian brothers and sisters in Christ who hold to varying views on non-essential points, yet we are all in agreement of the essentials in regard to Jesus Christ and the scriptures. Biblical Christianity is not a religion or cult where everyone always, looks, thinks, or acts exactly the same. It is a living relationship with Jesus Christ and as such, each person is at a different point and place of this relationship and understanding in their Christian life. The main point is that believers are all one in Christ and hopefully are continually and humbly seeking truth, wisdom, and direction from Jesus over self.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes, everyone has sexual attractions, but I think our culture and world now has become so overly sexualized that it has overshadowed a person's true identity. I'm sure there is so much more to who you are and your identity as a person than your "sexual" identity. I've read a lot of your posts. I don't just read them with an attitude of finding fault or thinking of ways to argue, but with the hope of seeing the real you and getting to understand your heart and thoughts. Since I don't know you personally and only on a forum I could so easily be wrong, but I don't sense that you are very happy or have found fulfillment in your life.

It has a lot to do with who you will love and spend your life with. That sounds pretty important to me.

 

[InChrist]

It has a lot to do with who you will love and spend your life with. That sounds pretty important to me.

I think it is pretty important, also. So important that I would never make such a decision of who to spend my life with apart from God's perfect wisdom. in the matter.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Good. I said that when I had these musings I was an atheist, I did not believe I had an immortal soul. "I am not selfish enough" what difference doe it make whether you are selfish or not ? Others are selfish in wanting what you can provide them. ( I am asking as a philosophical atheist, not as a Christian) what yardstick exists that you can measure anything by ? If I got pleasure from killing little girls, and pleasure is the most meaningful and important thing to me, and I knew how to do it so society's meaningless laws can't touch me, I have evolved to the point I can safely attain what is most important to me in life, what's wrong with that ?

You'll find that is untrue, once society catches you and locks you up in prison.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I find it a little difficult to figure out the main point or question you are trying to get across, but I will try to respond the best I can and you may clarify your point or question if you think necessary.

First, I think the behavior of a rapist is sinful whoever they are or whatever relationship they are in because their behavior is using and defrauding another person for their own self-centered reasons.

Secondly, I think there is more to marriage than love, friendship, family, job, house, children, etc. Previously, I have posted that I believe the scriptures reveal that God created man in His image. Man meaning, not man alone or not female alone, but male and female represent the image of God. So a marriage between a male and female is a picture of God's image. In the NT it is also shown that marriage between a man and woman is a picture of the relationship between Christ and the church, His bride. This representation does not occur, nor is the wholeness of God's image displayed in a male/ male or female/ female union. According to the scriptures since sexual relations unite two as one they are reserved for the marriage between a male and female because it is this unity of male and female qualities which display God's image, whether in Christian or non-Christian marriages because God designed marriage as such, between male and female.

.

To god, its a out gender?

 

[shmogie]

You'll find that is untrue, once society catches you and locks you up in prison.

You are absolutely right there ! Hypothetical only. People like that deserve a needle in the arm, not just prison

 

[SkepticThinker]

Wrong. A written statement of a dead witness is just as valuable as evidence live witness testimony. " As I have been told" What someone says, and you believe, doesn't make it true. In fact, I know better

Eyewitness testimony isn't all that reliable to begin with. Humans are prone to all sorts of errors in perception and memory.

 

[shmogie]

Why contribute to the betterment of others? Because I care about others. Because I feel that we are lucky to spend one brief lifetime on this magnificent planet in this amazing universe and so we should make the most of every single second of this precious life we get, for both ourselves, and for others we share the planet with.

I decide what is good. Just like you do.

Exactly my point. However, as you pointed out, you are bound by the civil law, which, after all is just a majority vote on what is right. You may disagree, but........................
I choose to follow a "law" that I am free to walk away from whenever I choose, because I feel it is best

 

[SkepticThinker]

Exactly my point. However, as you pointed out, you are bound by the civil law, which, after all is just a majority vote on what is right. You may disagree, but........................
I choose to follow a "law" that I am free to walk away from whenever I choose, because I feel it is best

We all are bound by civil law and we all decide for ourselves what is right. All ideas about right and wrong are filtered through each person's own moral compass - there's just no avoiding that.

At least people who break civil law can face punishment in the here and now rather than possibly, maybe later in some afterlife that may or may not be there.

 

[shmogie]

Do you think that Christians who believe the earth is 6000 years old have the same relationship with Christ as peopke who believe that the earth is a few billions years old? What about Christians who believe that the death penaly is a sin and Chrsitians who believe it is not? Are either the Amish or the southern Baptists no real Christians? What about evolution? Contraception? Divorce? Virginity? Hell as eternal torment vs. Hell as separation or termination?

Having the same relationship with God seems to be a bit fuzzy. My impression is that all these relationships with Christ reduce to converse with the Almighty about the waether or baseball, instead of enabling a common understanding of what God really wants.

Ciao

- viole

As inChrist has pointed out, there are certain fundamental beliefs that are common to all Christians, denominations major in minors, where a denomination might compromise one of these fundamental beliefs, they are in peril, and no matter what they say about their relationship with Christ, it cannot be what it should. There is a denomination that until the 1970's would not allow blacks as members. This was based upon not the Bible, which teaches no such thing, but alleged visions of a "prophet" written down in a book given the same authority as the Bible. They changed, no doubt because of the Biblical wrong of their position, because their alleged "prophet" at the time, had a vision apparently contradicting the first prophet. No matter what they may say they could not be in harmony with God while teaching and practicing a sin as described in the Bible, by God, as wrong

 

[shmogie]

We all are bound by civil law and we all decide for ourselves what is right. All ideas about right and wrong are filtered through each person's own moral compass - there's just no avoiding that.

At least people who break civil law can face punishment in the here and now rather than possibly, maybe later in some afterlife that may or may not be there.

Right