Not always, some of us are born that way (hermaphrodites) a natural eunuch
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Is being gay a sin according to your religion?
- Thread starter AlphaAlex115
- Start date
Not always, some of us are born that way (hermaphrodites) a natural eunuch
MountainPine
Deuteronomy 30:16
Well I believe hermaphrodites should lead chaste lives and deny themselves any sexual pleasure with any partner, otherwise they are sinning. Being a hermaphrodite is not a justification for being gay.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
That's rather harsh.
MountainPine
Deuteronomy 30:16
How so? I'm still a virgin and by choice, and I'm 28. It's not harsh at all. You say that as if sex is all what life is about.
Last edited:
Yes indeed, i am asexual and have no interest in intimacy...
helps somewhat with study and career.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I'm saying that not because I think sex is all life is about, but because it's cruel to expect someone to forfeit sexual and intimate pleasures.
MountainPine
Deuteronomy 30:16
Just like it's "cruel" for Christians and other religions to expect homosexuals to repent? I'll tell you what, it's cruel to expect someone to sacrifice their moral code in order to have tolerance for people who disrupt their world view.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Yup. Homosexuals are who they are, they are born that way, they harm no one, thus they should not be expected to "accept" themselves as inherently sinful and repent over something that harms no one.
Just so you know, it doesn't matter what you believe, your religious "rights" are already restricted. Such as, it is illegal to run a business and put up a sign that says "No negroes allowed" and it would also be illegal to have the business set up so women cannot be in positions of authority over men. You can believe what you want, but societies do not function well when one group gets to legally target another group. Your Jesus wouldn't stand for it anyways.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
I don't know the apparent politically correct terminology as I rarely discuss LGBT stuff... I have one good homo friend whom I've known many years.....but neither he, or I, nor our mutual friends have ever raised the subject when we are together.....sort of like don't ask, don't tell... I am religious and have little interest in things of this world...my life is mainly about still mind meditation....
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Nah...I see you and St Frank as having confirmation bias on the issue...if you can't see with clarity what the bible has to say on the matter....my words will never persuade you otherwise....
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
How about just calling them people? Humans? Men? Women? Neighbor? Friend?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Asking for you to flesh out a response to an article is hardly a position of bias, and you are hardly the one to be making accusations of bias. And as for what the Bible says, we have what you are saying, which isn't much at all, and then we have another post like Frank's which delves deeper into the issue and is sensitive to the context of the culture from whence it came.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Sure...I do.....but this thread is about homosexuality....would you prefer to call them men...who lie with other men as with a woman...?
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
The confirmation bias was evident in the posting of such lame stuff....and your buying it as credible....it has zero credibility....
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
Using an ancient religious text to justify discrimination is pretty lame anyway.
And did Jesus say: "Love your neighbour as yourself, but only if they're straight."? I don't think so!
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Why wouldn't I call a man a man? What else would I call him?
There was zero bias in that post. I requested you to flesh out your response, rather than just say it's not credible. And I didn't say I bought into Frank's post, I was merely pointing out that your rebuttal should more resemble his post in that it's fleshed out, outside sources used, and it makes a claim and provides evidence to support the claim. Your post stopped at making a claim.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
I can't see any substantive difference between discriminating against people based on their sexual orientation or their skin colour. In both cases it's arbitrary bigotry.
MountainPine
Deuteronomy 30:16
C/P from: http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/homosexual_refuted.html#Ruth
Ruth 1:14 And they lifted up their voice, and wept again: and Orpah kissed her mother in law; but Ruth clave unto her.
1 Sam 18:3 Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.
OBJECTION
The relationship between Ruth and Naomi is one of two lesbians. Ruth 1:14 says that "Ruth cleaved onto her." (KJV) The Hebrew word translated here as "cleave" is the same word used to description heterosexual marriage in Genesis 2:24: " Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."
David and Jonathan relationship was also homoerotic , as in 1 Samuel 18:3-4; 18:20-21, 4;2Sam. 1:26.
ANSWER
Once again we see vain attempts at eisegesis (reading into the text, not out of it), which depend upon ignorance of the immediate context, as well as that of the culture in which the events took place. In the first instance the same Hebrew word for clave (da^baq) is also used in commanding us to cleave unto God (Dt. 10:20; 11:22, 13:4), or to describe how their enemies of Israel pursued them (1Sam. 14:22). 2 Sam. 20:2 declares that the men of tribe of Judah "clave unto their King" (who had many wives). And even Ruth's future husband (Boaz) even tells her to "keep fast (same word for cleave) by my young men" (Ruth 2:8,,21). Does the homo-apologist suppose "clave" in these instances means sexually? Would Ruth, a "virtuous women (3:11), be told by her future husband to cleave to the young men in the way homosexuals have her doing to Naomi? Furthermore, she was seeking a husband! While certain homo-apologists earnestly desire to see sexual relations where there are none, reading the above verse in context easily reveals that this cleaving means sticking close in non sexual ways (cf. 2:23), as is does in 58 of the 60 places where the same Hebrew word is used!
I Sam. 8
Saul, Israel's first king, fails critical leadership tests and David is chosen by God to be his replacement, and is therefore anointed by the prophet Samuel. David slays the giant Goliath (1Sam. 17), and proves himself a mighty warrior and gains Jonathan esteem and covenanted friendship, as well as Israel's praises (Ch. 18). Saul would quickly become jealous, and for a few years the future King David would be found escaping Saul's attempts, even though David could have slain him. But it was in the wilderness that David learned to really pray (read the Psalms) and depend on the Lord. And early on the help of one on the "inside" would prove Providential. David would finally realize the Kingdom, but not until not only Saul but also David's closest and dearest friend died.
MountainPine
Deuteronomy 30:16
continued...
At the subsequent meeting after slaying Goliath with King Saul, his son, Jonathan, fellowships with this Godly hero who was zealous for the glory of the LORD. Being uniquely of like heart, spirit and calling, their fellowship must continue. "And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house. Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul. And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle. And David went out whithersoever Saul sent him, and behaved himself wisely: and Saul set him over the men of war, and he was accepted in the sight of all the people, and also in the sight of Saul's servants." (1Sam. 8:1-5).
Without any real warrant from Scripture, those who lust to find some evidence of approved homosexual relations suppose they find it here. First they think “knit” means to be homoerotic as they are, as they seem to have trouble conceiving of true brotherly love that is nonsexual. Many soldiers have had precious war buddy's who would lay their life down for them, as Jonathan basically did for David. Grammatically, the word "knit" is never used sexually, but rather it denotes to be of one heart and soul, "as one man" as in Judges 20:1. Likewise in 1Chrn. 12:16, 17 the tribes Benjamin and Judah are said to be knit with King David (no, they were not homosexual tribes!). Even more closely, the same word is used to describe Jacob's love for his son Benjamin (Gn. 44: 30). It's most prevalent use is in the negative sense, as conspiracy (1Sam. 22:13), in that case also denoting a non-sexual soul-bond.
Neither can we read a sexual connotation into "loved him as his own soul." Soul basically means life. In all 753 instances of the Hebrew word there is nothing sexual about it. Jonathan loved David as his own life, as we are commanded by the Lord to do. In Genesis 44:30 we see that Jacob's life was bound up in the life of his child. Deuteronomy 13:6 speaks about family members which can be as dear to us as our own soul, and we dare not make all such pathos sexual. Though relatively rare, there have been many bonds of friendships similar to David and Jonathan's in which there was nothing sexual. The love of Christ for His disciples, and of most of theirs for Him (especially Peter and John's) is an example of such soul love, and only the most blind and vile soul dare insinuate that there must be something sexual therein.
In David and Johnathan's case, it is noteworthy that previous to their meeting, "when Saul saw any strong man, or any valiant man, he took him unto him" (1Sam. 14:52) as part of his army. It is reasonable to surmise that Jonathan, who also had some fame as a daring warrior (1Sam. 13:3; 14), sees David as the bold yet humble hero that he was. And so, like father like son, Johnathan saw in David a strong and valiant man, and a true comrade, whose friendship and place in the kingdom of Saul must be assured. David was a man who obviously loved God and showed it in action. Likely the king's son was yearning for such a fellow soldier as David showed himself to be, and found in David one of unique likeness of heart for God and in battle. Thus their bond was spiritual, not sexual. And so Jonathan enters into a covenant with him, the making of which, distinct from marriage, was not uncommon in that world (the word is used 285 times in the O.T.). They made another one in 1Sam. 23:18 which affirmed loyalty in a time of life – threatening danger. Early Christians are said to have entered into a covenant daily with each other, never to lie, or betray one another, .etc., and by which each party pledged mutual trust.
However, what about Jonathan giving his robe, his garments, "even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle" (1Sam. 18:4) to David? Even though Jonathan did not lay his outer garments aside (“girdle” means armor in 2Ki. 3:21) but gave them to David, homosexuals fantasize this to be erotic, but the imagination of the natural mind (1Cor. 2:14) must be subject to the Word of God (2Cor. 10:5).
So why would Jonathan give David his clothes? The Bible, which interprets itself, shows us the answer. In Numbers 20:26, when transferring Aaron's position as high priest to his son, God commanded Moses "And strip Aaron of his garments, and put them upon Eleazar his son: and Aaron shall be gathered unto his people, and shall die there.” Likewise Jonathan's actions in giving David the garments of the king's son and heritor of the throne signified a transfer of inheritance to David from Jonathan, who both knew the law of Moses and the answer to his father's question, “what can he have more but the kingdom?”
It also fulfilled a secondary necessity in a charitable way befitting of Jonathan. David had just come from come his job as a keeper of sheep, no lofty position, and one that placed him in humble shepherd's clothing, which would have set him apart from the rest of the royal household. In stark contrast, Jonathan was heir to the throne and it is expected that he would be clothed accordingly. And as Saul "would let him [David] go no more home to his father's house" (1Sam. 18:2), Jonathan's action is giving his garments not only signified David's future replacement of Saul (rather than Jonathan), but rectified the situation of David's unworthy clothing, fittingly at Jonathan's own expense.
The details are noteworthy. Instead of the clothes of a poor Shepard, Jonathan gives David his royal robe and garments, which would make him more fit for a job as a courtier (an attendant at the court of a sovereign). And instead of a shepherd's scrip, Jonathan gives David a girdle (either a belt or a sash); and instead of a slingshot, David receives a sword and bow, and armor befitting a soldier in the army of the king. The fact that David now would wear the garments belonging to the heir to the throne not only signified what would eventually follow, but also insured greater acceptance by the rest of the royal staff. " In Esther 6:8 we see how “clothing makes the man” "Let the royal apparel be brought which the king useth to wear, and the horse that the king rideth upon, and the crown royal which is set upon his head.."
Thus far there is nothing that warrants anything different than exceptional, but holy affection between two Godly and like-hearted spiritual brothers and warriors in the kingdom of God. It is manifestly obvious that the purpose of Jonathan removing some of his garments (they did wear under garments) was to unselfishly and prophetically give them to David for his future as well as present new position, and not for any erotic purpose.
At the subsequent meeting after slaying Goliath with King Saul, his son, Jonathan, fellowships with this Godly hero who was zealous for the glory of the LORD. Being uniquely of like heart, spirit and calling, their fellowship must continue. "And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house. Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul. And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle. And David went out whithersoever Saul sent him, and behaved himself wisely: and Saul set him over the men of war, and he was accepted in the sight of all the people, and also in the sight of Saul's servants." (1Sam. 8:1-5).
Without any real warrant from Scripture, those who lust to find some evidence of approved homosexual relations suppose they find it here. First they think “knit” means to be homoerotic as they are, as they seem to have trouble conceiving of true brotherly love that is nonsexual. Many soldiers have had precious war buddy's who would lay their life down for them, as Jonathan basically did for David. Grammatically, the word "knit" is never used sexually, but rather it denotes to be of one heart and soul, "as one man" as in Judges 20:1. Likewise in 1Chrn. 12:16, 17 the tribes Benjamin and Judah are said to be knit with King David (no, they were not homosexual tribes!). Even more closely, the same word is used to describe Jacob's love for his son Benjamin (Gn. 44: 30). It's most prevalent use is in the negative sense, as conspiracy (1Sam. 22:13), in that case also denoting a non-sexual soul-bond.
Neither can we read a sexual connotation into "loved him as his own soul." Soul basically means life. In all 753 instances of the Hebrew word there is nothing sexual about it. Jonathan loved David as his own life, as we are commanded by the Lord to do. In Genesis 44:30 we see that Jacob's life was bound up in the life of his child. Deuteronomy 13:6 speaks about family members which can be as dear to us as our own soul, and we dare not make all such pathos sexual. Though relatively rare, there have been many bonds of friendships similar to David and Jonathan's in which there was nothing sexual. The love of Christ for His disciples, and of most of theirs for Him (especially Peter and John's) is an example of such soul love, and only the most blind and vile soul dare insinuate that there must be something sexual therein.
In David and Johnathan's case, it is noteworthy that previous to their meeting, "when Saul saw any strong man, or any valiant man, he took him unto him" (1Sam. 14:52) as part of his army. It is reasonable to surmise that Jonathan, who also had some fame as a daring warrior (1Sam. 13:3; 14), sees David as the bold yet humble hero that he was. And so, like father like son, Johnathan saw in David a strong and valiant man, and a true comrade, whose friendship and place in the kingdom of Saul must be assured. David was a man who obviously loved God and showed it in action. Likely the king's son was yearning for such a fellow soldier as David showed himself to be, and found in David one of unique likeness of heart for God and in battle. Thus their bond was spiritual, not sexual. And so Jonathan enters into a covenant with him, the making of which, distinct from marriage, was not uncommon in that world (the word is used 285 times in the O.T.). They made another one in 1Sam. 23:18 which affirmed loyalty in a time of life – threatening danger. Early Christians are said to have entered into a covenant daily with each other, never to lie, or betray one another, .etc., and by which each party pledged mutual trust.
However, what about Jonathan giving his robe, his garments, "even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle" (1Sam. 18:4) to David? Even though Jonathan did not lay his outer garments aside (“girdle” means armor in 2Ki. 3:21) but gave them to David, homosexuals fantasize this to be erotic, but the imagination of the natural mind (1Cor. 2:14) must be subject to the Word of God (2Cor. 10:5).
So why would Jonathan give David his clothes? The Bible, which interprets itself, shows us the answer. In Numbers 20:26, when transferring Aaron's position as high priest to his son, God commanded Moses "And strip Aaron of his garments, and put them upon Eleazar his son: and Aaron shall be gathered unto his people, and shall die there.” Likewise Jonathan's actions in giving David the garments of the king's son and heritor of the throne signified a transfer of inheritance to David from Jonathan, who both knew the law of Moses and the answer to his father's question, “what can he have more but the kingdom?”
It also fulfilled a secondary necessity in a charitable way befitting of Jonathan. David had just come from come his job as a keeper of sheep, no lofty position, and one that placed him in humble shepherd's clothing, which would have set him apart from the rest of the royal household. In stark contrast, Jonathan was heir to the throne and it is expected that he would be clothed accordingly. And as Saul "would let him [David] go no more home to his father's house" (1Sam. 18:2), Jonathan's action is giving his garments not only signified David's future replacement of Saul (rather than Jonathan), but rectified the situation of David's unworthy clothing, fittingly at Jonathan's own expense.
The details are noteworthy. Instead of the clothes of a poor Shepard, Jonathan gives David his royal robe and garments, which would make him more fit for a job as a courtier (an attendant at the court of a sovereign). And instead of a shepherd's scrip, Jonathan gives David a girdle (either a belt or a sash); and instead of a slingshot, David receives a sword and bow, and armor befitting a soldier in the army of the king. The fact that David now would wear the garments belonging to the heir to the throne not only signified what would eventually follow, but also insured greater acceptance by the rest of the royal staff. " In Esther 6:8 we see how “clothing makes the man” "Let the royal apparel be brought which the king useth to wear, and the horse that the king rideth upon, and the crown royal which is set upon his head.."
Thus far there is nothing that warrants anything different than exceptional, but holy affection between two Godly and like-hearted spiritual brothers and warriors in the kingdom of God. It is manifestly obvious that the purpose of Jonathan removing some of his garments (they did wear under garments) was to unselfishly and prophetically give them to David for his future as well as present new position, and not for any erotic purpose.
MountainPine
Deuteronomy 30:16
continued...
But what of two chapters later, where we read "And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded" (1Sam 20:41). Is this erotic?
The context is that of David leaving the house of Saul. For sometime now his days were numbered, with jealous King Saul (jealous because of Davids fame as a warrior), more than once trying to pin him to the wall with a javelin. Jonathan has warned David of Saul's mind toward him, and incurred the displeasure of Saul himself by his loyalty to David. Now Jonathan gives him a sign by way of a lad shooting arrows. Like the apostle Paul in Acts 20:38, they shall see each others face no more. And like Paul's departure, it is marked by tears and kisses of brotherly affection: “.. and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded" (1Sam. 20:41). "And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him" (Acts 20:37). This was a fairly common but nonsexual sign of affection in that culture, as it is may be today. Christians are exhorted, "Greet one another with an holy kiss" (2Cor. 13:12). Kissing is rarely sexual in the Bible, except between a man and a women in a purposely evident erotic context and place (SOS 1:2; 8:1), and no matter how much homosexuals seek to read eroticism into the text and a cultural practice, it is not there.
Then we have the poetic description of Jonathan's precious love in David's lament over his death. "How are the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! O Jonathan, thou wast slain in thine high places. I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women" (2Sam. 1:25, 26). Johnathan has died with his father in battle, leaving behind at least one child (2Sam. 4:4; 9:3-6; 1Chr. 8:34), and David loses an exceptional and holy friendship that was proved in the most trying time of his life.
But while those who are intent on finding some evidence of sexual love between men hope to find it here, neither the use of the word "pleasant" (which can even describe land - Gn. 49:15) or that the love of Jonathan surpassed that of women denotes anything sexual — and the Bible has no problem making the latter clear when that is the case. The problem is that many of those given to perverse fornication refuse to allow brotherly affection to be nonsexual. True love is manifested and realized in a far more comprehensive manner than simple sexually, and the latter may often fail to be even qualify as true love. But David and Jonathan's battle – proven love in friendship would easily be far more rare, needful and appreciated than of the women we see that David had known sexually. His wife, Saul's daughter Michal (1Sam. 18:27), would soon be cursed due to her reproof of him (2Sam. 6:14-23), but Johnathan risked his life for David, and showed himself a faithful and Godly comrade in helping David escape Saul's wrath on his way to replacing him. And which position David would have never inherited if he were involved in sodomy. There simply is no substance for reading sexual activity in such words, which eisegesis is perverse as is the practices they seek to justify, and which attempts reveals the desperation those who seek to negate the Biblical injunctions against homosexuality face.
Finally, the fact that both Jonathan and David were both married to women, and had children by such testifies to David's heterosexual sexuality, and in the latter's case is further affirmed not only by his many wives, but also (though in a negative context) by his adulterous affair with Bathsheba. It is clearly evident that it was not men that David married, but women, and it not men that he was sexually attracted to, but woman (2Sam. 11). Thus if Jonathan and David were in a homosexual relationship through the years, then they would have been adulterous bisexuals! Any kind of homosexual eroticism would also be scandalous in the household of Saul and kingdom of Israel. Rather, any insinuation of a homosexual relationship between these men of God is slanderous.
But what of two chapters later, where we read "And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded" (1Sam 20:41). Is this erotic?
The context is that of David leaving the house of Saul. For sometime now his days were numbered, with jealous King Saul (jealous because of Davids fame as a warrior), more than once trying to pin him to the wall with a javelin. Jonathan has warned David of Saul's mind toward him, and incurred the displeasure of Saul himself by his loyalty to David. Now Jonathan gives him a sign by way of a lad shooting arrows. Like the apostle Paul in Acts 20:38, they shall see each others face no more. And like Paul's departure, it is marked by tears and kisses of brotherly affection: “.. and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded" (1Sam. 20:41). "And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him" (Acts 20:37). This was a fairly common but nonsexual sign of affection in that culture, as it is may be today. Christians are exhorted, "Greet one another with an holy kiss" (2Cor. 13:12). Kissing is rarely sexual in the Bible, except between a man and a women in a purposely evident erotic context and place (SOS 1:2; 8:1), and no matter how much homosexuals seek to read eroticism into the text and a cultural practice, it is not there.
Then we have the poetic description of Jonathan's precious love in David's lament over his death. "How are the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! O Jonathan, thou wast slain in thine high places. I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women" (2Sam. 1:25, 26). Johnathan has died with his father in battle, leaving behind at least one child (2Sam. 4:4; 9:3-6; 1Chr. 8:34), and David loses an exceptional and holy friendship that was proved in the most trying time of his life.
But while those who are intent on finding some evidence of sexual love between men hope to find it here, neither the use of the word "pleasant" (which can even describe land - Gn. 49:15) or that the love of Jonathan surpassed that of women denotes anything sexual — and the Bible has no problem making the latter clear when that is the case. The problem is that many of those given to perverse fornication refuse to allow brotherly affection to be nonsexual. True love is manifested and realized in a far more comprehensive manner than simple sexually, and the latter may often fail to be even qualify as true love. But David and Jonathan's battle – proven love in friendship would easily be far more rare, needful and appreciated than of the women we see that David had known sexually. His wife, Saul's daughter Michal (1Sam. 18:27), would soon be cursed due to her reproof of him (2Sam. 6:14-23), but Johnathan risked his life for David, and showed himself a faithful and Godly comrade in helping David escape Saul's wrath on his way to replacing him. And which position David would have never inherited if he were involved in sodomy. There simply is no substance for reading sexual activity in such words, which eisegesis is perverse as is the practices they seek to justify, and which attempts reveals the desperation those who seek to negate the Biblical injunctions against homosexuality face.
Finally, the fact that both Jonathan and David were both married to women, and had children by such testifies to David's heterosexual sexuality, and in the latter's case is further affirmed not only by his many wives, but also (though in a negative context) by his adulterous affair with Bathsheba. It is clearly evident that it was not men that David married, but women, and it not men that he was sexually attracted to, but woman (2Sam. 11). Thus if Jonathan and David were in a homosexual relationship through the years, then they would have been adulterous bisexuals! Any kind of homosexual eroticism would also be scandalous in the household of Saul and kingdom of Israel. Rather, any insinuation of a homosexual relationship between these men of God is slanderous.