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Is Bible Prophesy realible?
- Thread starter d.n.irvin
- Start date
d.n.irvin
Active Member
If you gave me a dollar for every time I've heard, in my 50 years, from one Christian or another that the world was going to end tomorrow, I'd be the proverbial rich man, and you would be broke. But it's not just during my lifetime that this sort of nonsense has been going on. Even the early Church was filled with end of the world thinking. Christianity has a nearly unbroken 2000 year history of being wrong about the end of the world.
d.n.irvin
Active Member
Oh I understand where you are coming from -but have you really examined "Bible Prophecy" -its really fascinating t0 see just how accurate the Prophecies are.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Mr. Irvin,
To those who are not Christian this is not an earthshaking topic. The Torah established a sabbath. Christianity honored the sabbath but switched the day to bew a constant commemoration of Easter. Islam switched it back.
To Baha`i's this is one of those laws that stays in effect spiritually because there are days for the special commemoration of God, and the Baha`i Faith establishes that day on a different calendar.
Here in OKC, the Buddhist Temple honors Sundays with public services and receptions because it is a good day to attract people to the temple on an outting. The baha`i communities in the area often host children's classes on that day which are open to the public.
The sabbath is more tradition than LAW, and it's a tradition honored by the Great Prophets though subject to modification according to the needs of humanity at the time in question.
Yes, it is the Holy SPirit which changes hearts, but the Holy Spirit is guided through other humans for the purpose of teaching.
Regards,
Scott
To those who are not Christian this is not an earthshaking topic. The Torah established a sabbath. Christianity honored the sabbath but switched the day to bew a constant commemoration of Easter. Islam switched it back.
To Baha`i's this is one of those laws that stays in effect spiritually because there are days for the special commemoration of God, and the Baha`i Faith establishes that day on a different calendar.
Here in OKC, the Buddhist Temple honors Sundays with public services and receptions because it is a good day to attract people to the temple on an outting. The baha`i communities in the area often host children's classes on that day which are open to the public.
The sabbath is more tradition than LAW, and it's a tradition honored by the Great Prophets though subject to modification according to the needs of humanity at the time in question.
Yes, it is the Holy SPirit which changes hearts, but the Holy Spirit is guided through other humans for the purpose of teaching.
Regards,
Scott
d.n.irvin
Active Member
Why do people reference me in their post vs what the Bible says? I have not mentioned my personal opinions or interpretations of Scripture other than what the Bible says.
BTW: You can call me Dave or David - Mr. Irvin is my Dad(lol)
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
"Why do people reference me in their post vs what the Bible says? I have not mentioned my personal opinions or interpretations of Scripture other than what the Bible says."
:thud:
:thud:
I haven't delved too deeply into the Baha´i faith yet, but am so far positively neutral. I was for example awed by the "Lotus Temple" in Delhi, inside and outside. It would be interesting to dissect your claims in the original language (I have some knowledge of languages like Arabic, Hindi, and Persian to name a few.)
Any outcome of such examinations won't of course have any bearing on what some self-labelled Christians believe regarding Bible "prophesies".
*** MOD POST ***
As a general reminder:
Let's not get personal but remain on-topic, shall we?
Let's not get personal but remain on-topic, shall we?
Peace,
Mystic
Mystic
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
You can download the Aqdas among the rest of the Baha`i writing (and the writings of most of the world's religions) at Ocean - World Religions Free Research Library. You can download it in the original languages (Arabic and Persian).
Regards,
Scott
Care to share some Bible prophecies for the next few months? We can figure out what they predict now, watch for the prophecied events to unfold (or not), then get back together afterward to evaluate how accurate they were.
If you're right, there'll be no question; you'll have quite a bit of hard evidence to back up your claims.
If a few months is the wrong length of time (are we in a "prophecy lull" right now? Is something supposed to happen next Tuesday?), then we can figure out a different time period that works for you.
Sound good? I'm ready when you are.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Well actually, what about prophecy that ahs already come to pass (arguably)?
I can trot out a number of short term prophecies of the Bab, Baha`u'llah, and Abdu'l Baha if you like. But we'd need to start a new thread.
I'm game . . . . .
Which reminds me of the punchline of an Aggie joke
See... that's the thing about prophecy: you can play the random chance game by looking in hindsight. Any prophecies that coincidentally match past events can be trumpeted as evidence, and you can claim that any that don't match past events just haven't happened yet. It's trickier (and the real test of prophecy) to look at them before they happen.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Can't be done. You cannot examine them for truth until they are fulfilled or not fulfilled.
Now it can always be argued what is fulfillment and what is not--either way the evidence is subject to interpretation.
I showed you the prophecy concerning Germany. Here's one that was transmitted to Napoleon III in the Suriyi-Hykal. I would posit that it was fulfilled by circumstances through which Baha`u'llah had no obvious control:
""O King! We heard the words thou didst utter in answer to the Czar of Russia, concerning the decision made regarding the war [Crimean War]. Thy Lord, verily, knoweth, is informed of all. Thou didst say: 'I lay asleep upon my couch, when the cry of the oppressed, who were drowned in the Black Sea, wakened me.' This is what we heard thee say, and, verily, thy Lord is witness unto what I say. We testify that that which wakened thee was not their cry, but the promptings of thine own passions, for We tested thee, and found thee wanting. Comprehend the meaning of My words, and be thou of the discerning.... Hadst thou been sincere in thy words, thou wouldst have not cast behind thy back the Book of God, when it was sent unto thee by Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Wise. We have proved thee through it, and found thee other than that which thou didst profess. Arise, and make amends for that which escaped thee. Erelong the world and all that thou possessest will perish, and the kingdom will remain unto God, thy Lord and the Lord of thy fathers of old. It behooveth thee not to conduct thine affairs according to the dictates of thy desires. Fear the sighs of this Wronged One, and shield Him from the darts of such as act unjustly. For what thou hast done, thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands, as a punishment for that which thou hast wrought. Then wilt thou know how thou hast plainly erred. Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to help this Cause, and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God [Jesus] in this, the straight Path. Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My Life! It shall not endure; nay, it shall soon pass away, unless thou holdest fast by this firm Cord. We see abasement hastening after thee, while thou art of the heedless.... Abandon thy palaces to the people of the graves, and thine empire to whosoever desireth it, and turn, then, unto the Kingdom. This, verily, is what God hath chosen for thee, wert thou of them that turn unto Him.... Shouldst thou desire to bear the weight of thy dominion, bear it then to aid the Cause of thy Lord. Glorified be this station which whoever attaineth thereunto hath attained unto all good that proceedeth from Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.... Exultest thou over the treasures thou dost possess, knowing they shall perish? Rejoicest thou in that thou rulest a span of earth, when the whole world, in the estimation of the people of Baha, is worth as much as the black in the eye of a dead ant? Abandon it unto such as have set their affections upon it, and turn thou unto Him Who is the Desire of the world. Whither are gone the proud and their palaces? Gaze thou into their tombs, that thou mayest profit by this example, inasmuch as We made it a lesson unto every beholder. Were the breezes of Revelation to seize thee, thou wouldst flee the world, and turn unto the Kingdom, and wouldst expend all thou possessest, that thou mayest draw nigh unto this sublime Vision."
(Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. 29)
This was a second letter to Napoleon III sent by the same messenger. We do not have a copy of the first letter, only reference to by witnesses. According to the witnesses, Napoleon III threw the first letter on the floor and announced he was three times the God Baha`u'llah claimed to be. (As a matter of fact Baha`u'llah made no claim to be God.)
At the supposed height of his power Napoleon III crashed and burned and was deposed within fifteen years of the prophecy in question.
Regards,
Scott
But that's what I proposed: present a few prophecies now that are supposed to be fulfilled in the near future, then once they've supposed to have been fulfilled, look back and see what happened.
It seems like this prophecy could have been considered fulfilled no matter what happened. If the Second French Empire had flourished, this could have been seized as evidence that Napoleon III had indeed "held fast by this firm Cord."
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
1) Prophecy is not written to a timetable, or if it is that timetable is occulted (like the Book of Daniel). So the parameter you propose is not valid.
2) In this particular instance that was the point of the prophecy. A change of heart on the part of Napoleon III would have brought about the alternative and thus WOULD have fulfilled the prophecy.
Regards,
Scott
So... how does one go about proving the accuracy, or even usefulness, of prophesy, then?
Say you're in the midst of WWII and you find a prophecy that says something like "all Europe will kneel before the German leader. His enemies will be swept from the Earth" and declare that by this prophecy, you know that Hitler will win the war.
As we know, Hitler didn't win the war; the Germans lost. You can still continue to believe that the prophecy is true... you just declare that you interpreted it incorrectly, and it's talking about some future German leader, not Hitler.
Since most prophecies are (IMO) rather vague, how does one determine that a prophecy actually applies to a given situation?
So, let me get this straight... the Second French Empire collapsed, thereby fulfilling the prophecy. However, had the Second French Empire flourished, it would have also fulfilled the prophecy. Looking through the lens of history, this example does nothing to show the accuracy of prophecy. It seems like you've got all bases covered regardless of divine inspiration of the prediction, therefore there's no need to invoke any sort of supernatural influence in our explanation.
It seems like it's almost the equivalent of going to a football game and declaring, "the team with the truest spirit will win here tonight"; it doesn't prove a thing.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
If one sees the original prophecy to not be borne out (in other words, the "Banks of the Rhine" would see blood and failure TWICE) then it was "true prophecy". The original prophecy was addressed to the Kaiser at the pinnacle of the German victory in the Franco-Prussian War, no one would forsee that as coming to pass according to the reality of the times. Yet, it did come to pass over a period of almost eighty years.
personally, I see prophecy as an indication of the truth of the Prophet, not of any importance in any other way. It is a token of legitimacy, and if prophecy sways your decision to the point that it is the ONLY thing that sways your decision it is a fragile straw indeed.
In other words, I am a Baha`i because I believe that Baha`u'llah bore a Revelation from God, not because He picked out a few historical events on the 'winning side'. He was a Prophet not a "Bookie". The Spiritual truths of that Revelation are the important thing, not the prophecies.
Do you understand the Boolean concepts of IF, THEN, OR?
IF Napoleon did not do something in particular THEN the outcome would be "X", OR IF he did do that thing in particular the outcome would THEN be "Y"
quod erat demonstrandum
Regards,
Scott
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
According to Josephus, when Alexander returned from India to sack Jerusalem he was met at the city gates by the high priest, Jaddus, who outlined for Alexander the prophecy of his career in the book of Daniel. Upon seeing this Alexander spared Jerusalem.
Given the history of Europe, predicting that Germany will lose two wars seems to me to be a rather safe bet.
And I see prophecy as no indication of anything at all, unless it provides enough detail that its truth or falsehood can actually be measured against history.
Fair enough, though I thought we were talking about the accuracy of prophecy specifically.
And since we do not have insight into the inner workings of Napoleon's mind, the boolean relationship becomes:
IF X THEN X, OR IF (NOT (X)), THEN Y, where X and Y have previously been defined such that X and Y are mutually exclusive, and X and Y form the set of all possible outcomes. All the relationships in question are logically true, but only trivially.
QED back at ya'.
