Is Black Lives Matter a Joke?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And you are looking for reason they should not have been shot.

I was looking to respond to your claim, which I did by showing it to be utterly wrong.

Since blacks commit the great majority of crimes, there is a good chance they did need to be shot.

It's only noon here, but I'm willing to give you the "racist post of the day" award even without seeing what the afternoon yields.

 

[Kirran]

Nor do I see any for yours, as unclear and vague as it is.

Fair enough, I don't suppose I made one specifically.

White privilege is a set of societal privileges enjoyed by people identified as white on account of their being perceived to be in that racial group. It emerges as a result of the racialised society we have in the West carrying with it subtle correspondences between certain racial identities and associated traits, combined with a certain degree of in-group comfort, which overall means that a white person, regardless of all the other barriers they face (they could be a disabled transwoman, for example) can move through society more freely than someone who does not enjoy that privilege, all else being equal.

It's different from straight-up bias and prejudice, because it comes from a subtler level of societal preconceptions, and confers a suite of obvious and less obvious benefits - cultural affirmations of status, presumed social status, freedom of movement, speech etc, in a social sense rather than a legal sense. Another implication is the normalisation of your own experience. All white people have white privilege in Western societies (and often elsewhere!), and are benefited by it even if other problems cancel that out. Discrimination is clearly manifest in housing, in hiring, in education, in media representation, in law enforcement.

I haven't seen any BLM leaders denouncing looting. Intentionally breaking the law is never understandable.

Doesn't really have leaders.

Depends on the law.

 

[omega2xx]

Someone who actually thought that all lives matter would say "all lives matter, so of course black lives matter."

You are missing the point. They refused to say ALM and BLM. That is the same as saying they don't matter or black live are more important.

Someone who says "black lives matter? No - all lives matter" is expressing a different idea than that all lives actually matter.

Not if you have a 8th grade reading level comprehension.

They aren't rejecting the idea that all lives do matter; they're calling out "all lives matter" for its dishonesty.

Bolony. If they refuse to say it, they are rejecting i t,

]Someone who treats black people - or any other group - as if they don't matter does not actually believe that all lives matter.

Now whose moving the goal post. This is not about aothers do, It is about what BLM does.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Discrimination is clearly manifest in housing, in hiring, in education, in media representation, in law enforcement.

Discrimination or bias in these areas can only be measured and applied statistically (as generalizations).

 

[Kirran]

Discrimination or bias in these areas can only be measured and applied statistically (as generalizations).

Right, but emerges as a result of a suite of preconceptions which are not easily separated, known in their totality as white privilege. Individual discriminatory phenomena can only be measured statistically, yes.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Right, but emerges as a result of a suite of preconceptions which are not easily separated, known in their totality as white privilege. Individual discriminatory phenomena can only be measured statistically, yes.

Hence, they are generalizations. Which is my only point.

 

[Kirran]

Hence, they are generalizations. Which is my only point.

Yeah, right, I agree totally with you that these individual discriminatory categories (e.g. housing discrimination as a whole) can be observed at a statistical level, and so are generalisations one can say, but that they stem from and in their totality constitute white privilege, which is a universal phenomenon which impacts everybody.

A lot of it operates very subtly, and relate to what I referred to about normalisation, and the way we relate to people.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Now whose moving the goal post. This is not about aothers do, It is about what BLM does.

It's about why Black Lives Matter doesn't adopt the slogan of another movement. The fact that "all lives matter" is the slogan of a movement that's opposed to equal rights and protections for black people is a big part of why they don't adopt it.

 

[Kirran]

It's like MLK's 'Black Power!' It's not saying that other people shouldn't have power, it's about saying that black people deserve the power which has been (and is being) denied them.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Yeah, right, I agree totally with you that these individual discriminatory categories (e.g. housing discrimination as a whole) can be observed at a statistical level, and so are generalisations one can say, but that they stem from and in their totality constitute white privilege, which is a universal phenomenon which impacts everybody.

No, they impact a certain number of people as a statistical measurement and distribution. A certain number of people will have certain advantages in various situations because they are white, and a certain number of people will not. A certain number of people will have disadvantages in various situations because they are black, and a certain number will not.

These numbers will, of course, vary widely according to a whole range of other variables. However, the interesting, and useful component of this is to be able to see the statistical variance of these numbers, and to try to isolate all the variables and influences to be able to formulate productive and effective solutions, in regards to bias and its effects.

A lot of it operates very subtly, and relate to what I referred to about normalisation, and the way we relate to people.

But this has absolutely nothing to do with the real-world application of "privilege" or "disadvantage" both being generalizations. The social drive to paint all white people as having some all-pervasive and ever-present "privilege" is not only inaccurate, but not very useful. Nor, is the opposite drive to paint all minorities as have some all-pervasive and ever-present disadvantage.

Of course, I don't really expect most people coming from a purely social protest ideology to necessarily put much emphasis on either accuracy, nor usefulness. I extend this to all people who are primarily ideologists, particularly in the reactive sense.

 

[omega2xx]

Did you know the United States itself was founded as a result of illegal acts?

DUUH. Did that make it right?

 

[Kirran]

No, they impact a certain number of people as a statistical measurement and distribution. A certain number of people will have certain advantages in various situations because they are white, and a certain number of people will not. A certain number of people will have disadvantages in various situations because they are black, and a certain number will not.

These numbers will, of course, vary widely according to a whole range of other variables. However, the interesting, and useful component of this is to be able to see the statistical variance of these numbers, and to try to isolate all the variables and influences to be able to formulate productive and effective solutions, in regards to bias and its effects.

But this has absolutely nothing to do with the real-world application of "privilege" or "disadvantage" both being generalizations. The social drive to paint all white people as having some all-pervasive and ever-present "privilege" is not only inaccurate, but not very useful. Nor, is the opposite drive to paint all minorities as have some all-pervasive and ever-present disadvantage.

Of course, I don't really expect most people coming from a purely social protest ideology to necessarily put much emphasis on either accuracy, nor usefulness. I extend this to all people who are primarily ideologists, particularly in the reactive sense.

I agree very thoroughly on the need for practical methods, and that ideology divorced from practice is of little value.

But it seems you are not seeing what it is that I mean by white privilege. OK, so you accept that there are situations in which white people are privileged. Right, now regardless of whether they do so, a white person has the freedom to enter those situations and be advantaged, meaning they have more freedom than a person who is not white. That is a privilege.

In addition, you have been ignoring my points regarding the normalisation of social experience.

 

[omega2xx]

I was looking to respond to your claim, which I did by showing it to be utterly wrong.


It's only noon here, but I'm willing to give you the "racist post of the day" award even without seeing what the afternoon yields.

When all you can do is make nasty remarks, my advice is go back to the play ground with the other immature children. Please don't play in the street.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

When all you can do is make nasty remarks, my advice is go back to the play ground with the other immature children. Please don't play in the street.

Congratulations! You win hypocritical post of the day, too!

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I agree very thoroughly on the need for practical methods, and that ideology divorced from practice is of little value.

But it seems you are not seeing what it is that I mean by white privilege. OK, so you accept that there are situations in which white people are privileged. Right, now regardless of whether they do so, a white person has the freedom to enter those situations and be advantaged, meaning they have more freedom than a person who is not white. That is a privilege.

It's not that I'm not seeing what you mean. I disagree with its usefulness or accuracy. I acknowledge that some white people gain privilege because they are white in some situations. I also acknowledge that some minorities suffer disadvantage because they are minorities in some situations. I also acknowledge that some white people suffer disadvantage in some situations because they are white, and that some minorities gain privilege in some situations because they are minorities.

Nothing applies absolutely to everyone - there are only degrees of generalization based on various attributes and variables.

In addition, you have been ignoring my points regarding the normalisation of social experience.

They simply weren't relevant to my posts in any way. You're the one who responded to me originally about white privilege being a generalization. I've been trying to stay on track to show why this is the case - which I have successfully done.

 

[Kirran]

It's not that I'm not seeing what you mean. I disagree with its usefulness or accuracy. I acknowledge that some white people gain privilege because they are white in some situations. I also acknowledge that some minorities suffer disadvantage because they are minorities in some situations. I also acknowledge that some white people suffer disadvantage in some situations because they are white, and that some minorities gain privilege in some situations because they are minorities.

Nothing applies absolutely to everyone - there are only degrees of generalization based on various attributes and variables.

I just think it's important that we recognise how utterly pervasive and deep-rooted these prejudices and preconceptions are in our society. It's tempting not to.

They simply weren't relevant to my posts in any way. You're the one who responded to me originally about white privilege being a generalization. I've been trying to stay on track to show why this is the case - which I have successfully done.

That normalisation applies across the board, that's the point, it is universal. It cannot be otherwise, that's what it means. Within our societies, as a whole, white is normalised. The cultural experience in the heritage of white people is established as normal, as mainstream. This impacts everybody psychologically.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I just think it's important that we recognise how utterly pervasive and deep-rooted these prejudices and preconceptions are in our society. It's tempting not to.

It's also tempting to turn the world into demons and victims. I think it's important that we recognize this tendency in our society, and that it is neither useful or positive.

That normalisation applies across the board, that's the point, it is universal. It cannot be otherwise, that's what it means. Within our societies, as a whole, white is normalised. The cultural experience in the heritage of white people is established as normal, as mainstream. This impacts everybody psychologically.

I don't presume to know what impacts "everybody" psychologically, or any other way. And, I tend to not take anyone seriously who would have the arrogance and ignorance to presume something so ridiculous. Absolutism and hyperbole might be effective rhetorical tactics (and I know). However, they are rarely a component of a serious effort to identify and solve problems.

 

[Kirran]

It's also tempting to turn the world into demons and victims. I think it's important that we recognize this tendency in our society, and that it is neither useful or positive.

I agree.

I don't presume to know what impacts "everybody" psychologically, or any other way. And, I tend to not take anyone seriously who would have the arrogance and ignorance to presume something so ridiculous. Absolutism and hyperbole might be effective rhetorical tactics (and I know). However, they are rarely a component of a serious effort to identify and solve problems.

Fair enough. Nevertheless, as far as I am concerned, I am approaching these things in good faith, and have a sincere desire to fulfill my duty in being as aware of the problems facing us as a society as I can be, so as to know how I can play my part in our progression.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I agree.

Fair enough. Nevertheless, as far as I am concerned, I am approaching these things in good faith, and have a sincere desire to fulfill my duty in being as aware of the problems facing us as a society as I can be, so as to know how I can play my part in our progression.

A laudable sentiment shared by a wide range of people encompassing a whole host of ideologies, opinions, and perspectives.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I notice that neither clip actually showed what you claimed and what I asked you to back up.

Yes it did; it showed an entire march chanting for dead cops. It showed numerous BLM supporters referring to whites as "devils" and saying that they're racist just for being white. It showed former BLM members pointing out these very issues, indicating that it's not isolated incidents.