Is Christianity logical?

[ratiocinator]

Fruit, forbidden. Decided listening to God was not necessary. etc etc.

I made no such choice.

 

[Kemosloby]

I made no such choice.

You have that choice now.

 

[ratiocinator]

You have that choice now.

Not according to what you said before:-

People go about sinning, even if they don't know it, even if they don't want to sin.

 

[Kemosloby]

Not according to what you said before:-

God doesn't say you have to quit sinning to be saved. He says 'Believe in his Son Jesus and you shall be saved' again Do not touch the fruit lest you die, Believe in the Son and you shall live

 

[Skwim]

That's just silly.

.​

 

[Pudding]

That's what I mean. Most other religions don't acknowledge sin. But their goals generally have self improvement type things, and if we aren't corrupted with sin what need have we for self improvement?

You have the belief that 'we are corrupted with sin'; non-believers don't have the belief that 'we are corrupted with sin'.

I don't need to believe "i'm corrupted with sin" before i can find the need for self improvement.
For me, self improvement makes me happy and in some sense give meaning to my life, therefor i have my reason for my self improvement.

 

[ratiocinator]

God doesn't say you have to quit sinning to be saved. He says 'Believe in his Son Jesus and you shall be saved' again Do not touch the fruit lest you die, Believe in the Son and you shall live

So god has made me unable to stop sinning but is threatening me with judgement for it anyway, but I can get off if I believe this bizarre story about Jesus. That's two blatant injustices. If I've been made unable to stop sinning because of somebody messing with fruit in the past, that's three.

Not exactly consistent with a just and loving god, is it?

 

[Pudding]

God doesn't say you have to quit sinning to be saved. He says 'Believe in his Son Jesus and you shall be saved' again Do not touch the fruit lest you die, Believe in the Son and you shall live

Do you mean the only requirement to be saved is believe in Jesus? Even if the believer continue to sin (stealing, lying...etc) he will always be saved as long as he believe in Jesus?

 

[Kemosloby]

You have the belief that 'we are corrupted with sin'; non-believers don't have the belief that 'we are corrupted with sin'.

I don't need to believe "i'm corrupted with sin" before i can find the need for self improvement.
For me, self improvement makes me happy and in some sense give meaning to my life, therefor i have my reason for my self improvement.

What do you need self improvement for if you're not flawed? What's wrong with you that makes you need or want self improvement? Got sin dwelling in you that makes you do things you don't like?

 

[Kemosloby]

Do you mean the only requirement to be saved is believe in Jesus? Even if the believer continue to sin (stealing, lying...etc) he will always be saved as long as he believe in Jesus?

It's a catch 22, that if you believe in Jesus you would do what he says. He says repent from sin but also knows you're not perfect. So you don't really know how much Jesus will let you get away with on the judgement day. Stealing and lying in and of themselves are not necessarily so bad. As a matter of fact, in certain situation they could be counted as righteousness, that you trust in the goodness of God rather than in the law. King David stole bread from the alter and God didn't hold it against him. Abraham lied about Sarah not being his wife to save his own life etc.

 

[Pudding]

What do you need self improvement for if you're not flawed?

I need self improvement because i'm not born omnipotent.

Also you're moving goal post, your previous statement is that "if we aren't corrupted with sin what need have we for self improvement?".

Here you replace "corrupted with sin" with "flawed".

You still have not provide any evidence to support your claim that "we're corrupted with sin".

I have no reason to believe that i'm corrupted with sin.

What's wrong with you that makes you need or want self improvement?

Nothing wrong.
Self improvement makes me happy and give meaning to my life therefor i engage in self improvement.

Got sin dwelling in you that makes you do things you don't like?

I don't have the belief that "there is sin dwelling in me that makes me do things i don't like".

 

[Pudding]

It's a catch 22, that if you believe in Jesus you would do what he says. He says repent from sin but also knows you're not perfect. So you don't really know how much Jesus will let you get away with on the judgement day. Stealing and lying in and of themselves are not necessarily so bad. As a matter of fact, in certain situation they could be counted as righteousness, that you trust in the goodness of God rather than in the law. King David stole bread from the alter and God didn't hold it against him. Abraham lied about Sarah not being his wife to save his own life etc.

You previously say "God doesn't say you have to quit sinning to be saved. He says Believe in his Son Jesus and you shall be saved".

Now you say "if you believe in Jesus you would do what he says. He says repent from sin" which means quit sinning.

God doesn't say you have to quit sinning to be saved.
Jesus says you have to quit sinning.

So, do believer have to quit sinning to be saved?

 

[psychoslice]

No religion is logic, its full of make believe, its up to you to believe in the make believe or not.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Shirk is not logical.

I believe it is wrong to describe divinity to Jesus when he said iam servant of Allah.

 

[Kemosloby]

You previously say "God doesn't say you have to quit sinning to be saved. He says Believe in his Son Jesus and you shall be saved".

Now you say "if you believe in Jesus you would do what he says. He says repent from sin" which means quit sinning.

God doesn't say you have to quit sinning to be saved.
Jesus says you have to quit sinning.

So, do believer have to quit sinning to be saved?

consider this line of scripture instead of thinking in absolutes. "Evil men have crept in among you trying to replace the grace of God with a license for immorality"

Grace means you won't face destruction for sinning, God can forgive you. But does that mean you should intentionally go on sinning as if Grace was a license for you to sin? Apparently not.

 

[Kemosloby]

I need self improvement because i'm not born omnipotent.

Also you're moving goal post, your previous statement is that "if we aren't corrupted with sin what need have we for self improvement?".

Here you replace "corrupted with sin" with "flawed".

You still have not provide any evidence to support your claim that "we're corrupted with sin".

I have no reason to believe that i'm corrupted with sin.


Nothing wrong.
Self improvement makes me happy and give meaning to my life therefor i engage in self improvement.


I don't have the belief that "there is sin dwelling in me that makes me do things i don't like".

Self help generally means working on character flaws. Working towards omnipotence or omniciensce is the task of education.

 

[Mary Blackchurch]

I believe the logis is as follows:
God hates sin.
Jesus takes away sin.
Conclusion: God gets what He wants.

What could be more logical?

What could be more logical? How about skipping the middleman and never introducing sin and evil? Just take away the sin, god, take away the evil. But noooo. He's got to insert a talking serpent, dancing satyr, unicorn, parted Red Sea, invisibly raped virgin, man-god son birth, etc., next on list: beat god-son to death so I can forgive the people I drowned once before and then replanted...

What a shyster.
I think a better response could be "where's the logic in any of that tripe?"

 

[buzzardwhiskey]

The "central message" of Christianity is the expression of existential fear, which by definition is not logical.

 

[Justmyopinion]

I believe that shows how little you know about Christianity and God.

I believe the logis is as follows:
God hates sin.
Jesus takes away sin.
Conclusion: God gets what He wants.

What could be more logical?

If Jesus is lord then he could never have suffered like a humble man. If he isn't he has no right going around telling everyone he is.

 

[BilliardsBall]

This is a spinoff from the thread "Is Religion Logical."

I believe that I would prefer to address the central message of Christianity but I recognize that there are a lot of ancillary aspects of the religion as well.

I believe it is logical to seek a higher power to do what one can't do for oneself.

I believe the central Christian message is that Christ died and rose for sin, the perfect for the imperfect. It is logical that humans must obey their conscience/not sin/be morally perfect to live in a utopia without mussing it.

I'm not ready to go to Heaven today unless I'm transformed to do no harm to others--physical, emotional, spiritual. The main message of the Bible is eminently logical--except for those who feel they can refine their behavior enough to get into Heaven (by a back door, the servant's entrance, perhaps).

Everyone I've spoken to about the gospel, including atheists, agree with me their would be three ways to create or enter a utopia:

1. Refine one's own behavior until one has total self-mastery.

2. Enter via divine forgiveness - then keep sinning in Heaven where perfect forgiveness exists.

3. Be divinely transformed.

I see logical problems with #1 and #2 and still find the gospel the most logical choice.