Is Christmas Pagan?

[Augustus]

Catholics are not sola scriptura. They believe that the authority is the church, which includes the Bible but also includes things like ecumenical councils. You can ask them how they believe this works, which is via Apostolic Succession. They will be happy to explain.

The celebration of the Nativity certainly didn't come from paganism, which wasn't interested in Jesus birth. In the 3rd century, bishops began including a feast of the nativity, but different bishops did it on different days. In the 4th century, all the bishops agreed on a common day for it. It really had nothing to do with paganism.

Now, you seem to wish to make this thread into a Catholic bashing thread. I won't participate in that. As a Jew, I personally have a great many problems with Christian theology. But I tend to think well of Christians for whom their faith brings them closer to God and assists them in becoming better people -- it doesn't matter squat to me if they are Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox.

I think you have misunderstood.

I was discussing what 17th C Protestants thought, not what I think

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think you have misunderstood.

I was discussing what 17th C Protestants thought, not what I think

You used the phrase "devious Catholics." You are a hater.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Which rituals would you say are genuinely unbroken continuities of pagan ritual?

I don't answer loaded questions.

There was no implication in what I said that there are any "genuinely unbroken continuities of pagan ritual." That's an idea of your own making.

I said that "some of the rituals were inspired by pagan ones." I have no idea where you pulled "genuinely unbroken" from.

 

[Augustus]

You used the phrase "devious Catholics." You are a hater.

Jesus wept. When someone tells you you have badly misunderstood what they said, maybe consider that they might just be correct in understanding what they actually said and you might indeed have badly misunderstood.

At least bother to go back and read more carefully to see if you might be wrong

Yes 17th c English Protestants very much thought about “devious Catholics” and “vile popery”. Talking about this does not require one to actually believe they were correct.

Note the phrase “led to it being perceived as…” and consider that everything continues in that frame of reference

It's lack of Biblical basis also led to it being perceived as "superstitious Popery", and pagan/Catholic were closely associated. If it wasn't in the Bible, the devious Catholics must have got it from somewhere.

Ironically, for those who want to "put the Christ back into Christmas", it was a drunken, licentious public celebration which probably was a major reason behind wanting to end it and associate it with drunken, licentious "pagan" public celebrations.

 

[Augustus]

I don't answer loaded questions.

There was no implication in what I said that there are any "genuinely unbroken continuities of pagan ritual." That's an idea of your own making.

I said that "some of the rituals were inspired by pagan ones." I have no idea where you pulled "genuinely unbroken" from.

Which ones would you say were inspired by pagan rituals?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Which ones would you say were inspired by pagan rituals?

The decorating and lighting of a tree, the burning of the yule log, the making of a wreath, and the celebration of birth are a few off the top of my head.

 

[exchemist]

Catholics are not sola scriptura. They believe that the authority is the church, which includes the Bible but also includes things like ecumenical councils. You can ask them how they believe this works, which is via Apostolic Succession. They will be happy to explain.

The celebration of the Nativity certainly didn't come from paganism, which wasn't interested in Jesus birth. In the 3rd century, bishops began including a feast of the nativity, but different bishops did it on different days. In the 4th century, all the bishops agreed on a common day for it. It really had nothing to do with paganism.

Now, you seem to wish to make this thread into a Catholic bashing thread. I won't participate in that. As a Jew, I personally have a great many problems with Christian theology. But I tend to think well of Christians for whom their faith brings them closer to God and assists them in becoming better people -- it doesn't matter squat to me if they are Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox.

What you say about Catholicism is correct, obviously, but surely you've got @Augustus all wrong here, haven't you? He's just pointing out the attitudes of the people who wanted to cut out Christmas celebration. It was miserable Puritanism like this that led to the Restoration of the English monarchy, a mere 11 years after the initiation of Cromwell's Commonwealth.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Christmas trees were introduced in the 16th century, centuries after the last pagans were converted to Christianity.

Not really.

It's quite paganish and much to do with the winter solstice and harvest celebrations.

I personally was surprised to find much of its early origins lay in ancient Egypt and Roman culture and later introduced to the states via the Germans.

History of Christmas Trees ‑ Symbolism, Traditions & Trivia | HISTORY

The history of Christmas trees goes back to the symbolic use of evergreens in ancient Egypt and Rome and continues with the German tradition of candlelit Christmas trees first brought to America in the 1800s.

www.history.com

 

[Disgustedman]

Personally, if it's not in the Bible, doesn't esteem, honor or reverence God, it probably shouldn't be celebrated.

 

[Augustus]

The decorating and lighting of a tree, the burning of the yule log, the making of a wreath, and the celebration of birth are a few off the top of my head.

In what way do you think these were inspired by pagans though?

Decorating using seasonal flora, fires in darkness and celebrating significant events are just generically human activities found independently in many cultures.

In your opinion, what would be the source of pagan inspiration for a 16th c German ?

 

[SalixIncendium]

In what way do you think these were inspired by pagans though?

Decorating using seasonal flora, fires in darkness and celebrating significant events are just generically human activities found independently in many cultures.

In your opinion, what would be the source of pagan inspiration for a 16th c German ?

If these were generically human activities, you would see them consistently throughout the winter months. The fact that they are done during a seasonal festival would indicate to me that these were done as celebratory rituals.

The source of inspiration wouldn't be some guy in 16th century Germany that decided that he needed to add more flair to his Christmas celebration. This would have been pre-Christian practices of indigenous people that stuck through the conversion process.

 

[Bear Wild]

Mostly, they were simply sola scriptura, and didn't approve of traditions in teh Church of England that could not be found in scripture.

Why did Puritans oppose Christmas?

"Essentially, the Puritans—which is what the Plymouth Pilgrims were—wanted to “purify” the Anglican Church of its Roman Catholic vestiges, and in particular, things that could not be found in the Bible. Christmas was outlawed because it was never mentioned in scripture."

Who Waged the Very First ‘War on Christmas’?

Thanks for the link. The next sentence is telling from the same article. "In fact, the Christian celebration of Christmas was invented by Romans as a way to co-opt and tame the raucous pagan holiday of Saturnalia, which was itself essentially a celebration of the days getting longer after the winter solstice. Candle-lighting, caroling, and wassailing—toasting and drinking to someone’s health, repeatedly—were all common practices that survived the transition from Saturnalia to Christmas." This implicates that they at least felt these were clearly not Christian to them and therefor what was not Christian was a part of the other religion which was implied in the Christians use of the word pagan.

For me this raises an interesting question about Christianity. If something was pagan in the past, then adapted and utilized in by someone Christiani would it not then be a Christian practice no matter of what its origin was?

We know that the pagan religions of Europe had no problem bringing in traditions from other religions including the importation of Mithras. They just adapted it into their context.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Thanks for the link. The next sentence is telling from the same article. "In fact, the Christian celebration of Christmas was invented by Romans as a way to co-opt and tame the raucous pagan holiday of Saturnalia, which was itself essentially a celebration of the days getting longer after the winter solstice.

I've read these arguments before and I reject them, and I'll tell you why.
1. First, Christmas is not on the same day as Saturnalia etc., so no connection there.
2. Second, although Sol Invictus is on the same day, the truth is that there were Catholics celebrating Christmas on Dec 25 BEFORE Sol Invictus came into being. Perhaps you would like to argue that the pagans stole the day and its ideas from the Christians?

 

[Bear Wild]

I've read these arguments before and I reject them, and I'll tell you why.
1. First, Christmas is not on the same day as Saturnalia etc., so no connection there.
2. Second, although Sol Invictus is on the same day, the truth is that there were Catholics celebrating Christmas on Dec 25 BEFORE Sol Invictus came into being. Perhaps you would like to argue that the pagans stole the day and its ideas from the Christians?

I do not necessary disagree with you but what about my other question.

For me this raises an interesting question about Christianity. If something was pagan in the past, then adapted and utilized in by someone Christiani would it not then be a Christian practice no matter of what its origin was?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Not really.

It's quite paganish and much to do with the winter solstice and harvest celebrations.

My point is that if christmas trees were only introduced CENTURIES after the last pagans, any similarity is coincidental.

 

[Twilight Hue]

My point is that if christmas trees were only introduced CENTURIES after the last pagans, any similarity is coincidental.

Well its roots go back to the early Egyptians and Roman's according to the experts.

I just thought the history was interesting and piqued my interest.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I do not necessary disagree with you but what about my other question.

For me this raises an interesting question about Christianity. If something was pagan in the past, then adapted and utilized in by someone Christiani would it not then be a Christian practice no matter of what its origin was?

Absolutely.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well its roots go back to the early Egyptians and Roman's according to the experts.

I just thought the history was interesting and piqued my interest.

If there is no connection between Christians adopting Christmas trees and paganism, then you cannot claim that it goes back "To Etyptians."

 

[Twilight Hue]

If there is no connection between Christians adopting Christmas trees and paganism, then you cannot claim that it goes back "To Etyptians."

It's not my personal claim. It's what the experts are saying.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's not my personal claim. It's what the experts are saying.

It is FALLACIOUS to appeal to authority when the authorities do not agree.