Is Christmas......

[Augustus]

I don't know whether Paganism had any influence on Christmas, but I've always wondered whether Judaism may have had some influence on the choice of the 25th day of December.

Because the first day (not first evening) of Chanukah falls on the 25th of the Hebrew month of Kislev.

Christmas Eve and the first evening (eve') of Chanukah each fall on the 24th day of their respective months.

Coincidence? Or deliberate?

It is connected to Judaism, but the Christmas date is via Easter and thus Passover.

25 Dec is 9 months after the Annunciation which was early Christians viewed as happening on 25 March for theological reasons.

Thanks to the paschal table of Hippolytus, we can be sure that 25 March played an important role in Christian chronology as the date of the crucifixion since at least the early third century, thus laying the ground for an influential calendrical tradition in the Western church.

Since it was established early on that Jesus died on 25 March, and since it was also assumed, based on Luke’s annunciation narrative, that he was born in winter, early Christians would have been tempted to re-interpret 25 March as the day of conception, whereby they could then arrive at 25 December as the date of the nativity. The attractiveness of 25 March and 25 December – the vernal equinox and the winter solstice – as cardinal points in the life of the Savior was naturally further underscored by a widespread solar symbolism, which viewed Christ as the “sun of righteousness” and is clearly present in chronological texts such as De pascha computus and the aforementioned On the solstices. CP Nothaft - Early Christian Chronology and the Origins of the Christmas

 

[Quintessence]

Granting that one of the definitions of "pagan" (in lower case) is a snarl word designating "people to hate" or "infidels" or "not my people, the bad people?" Christmas is, I suppose, pagan if you hate Christians?

But it certainly isn't Pagan (proper case, designating a religious demographic).

 

[Rival]

Christmas is, I suppose, pagan if you hate Christians?

TBF this is usually how it goes? Folks who tend not to like Christianity very much parrot these weird lies about it to denigrate it.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Ah, it's that time of year again.

I'm still traumatized from last year. @Augustus doesn't fool around...

 

[syo]

Pagan?

Every inch of it.

 

[CharmingOwl]

Modern Christmas is more capitalist than Christian or Pagan. Especially in America.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Based on what I've read, Christmas (Christ Mass) has several rituals and traditions that have pagan roots.

Christianity in general has pagan roots.

 

[DNB]

Pagan?

Yes, of course it is - why do I receive gifts at Christmas - I'm not the Messiah nor saviour of the world, nor is anyone else.
Every amateur theologian knows that Christ was not born on Dec 25, but rather that a pagan holiday took place on that day, Saturnalia.
Christmas is a lame excuse for the complacent and indifferent, who feel that going to Church 1 day a year clears their conscience.
Do you want to see materialism at its worst, go to the malls around Christmas, or someone's home on Christmas day. Ask anyone there who Christ is, see what response you get.

 

[Glaurung]

Why do you make the same threads about this every single year? Are you that obsessed with this question? It's never been answered for you? Well, you're not going to hear anything new as it's all been said, so what's the point?

It's an easy thread to make that's guaranteed to generate activity.

 

[Augustus]

Every amateur theologian knows that Christ was not born on Dec 25, but rather that a pagan holiday took place on that day, Saturnalia.

And every person with Google and 15 or so seconds knows that Saturnalia didn't take place on 25th Dec, it was around about a week earlier.

Some of them also know that Saturnalia continued to be celebrated on a different date alongside Christmas well into the 5th C.

Aside from being on a different date and not being a replacement, it's a winning theory though

 

[1213]

Pagan?

Christ = The Biblical Messiah, not a pagan concept.
mass = assemble or cause to assemble into a mass or as one body.

No, it is not pagan.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Pagan?

I love Christmas. At this time I recall the Beauty of Jesus and His Teachings. Love the carols and for me it’s a joyous time. The traditions may be borrowed but I love them. I think it’s not pagan if it’s a celebration of the Birth of Jesus.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Pagan?

If by pagan we mean cultures that aren't Judeo-Christian, then yes, Christmas has at least two such influences. One is the basic plot of a demigod born to a virgin who is resurrected after a few days, which existed before Christianity borrowed it, and also, the imagery of Christmas has been infused with north European pagan influences such that it has gone from a desert holiday as it is still celebrated here in Mexico, with creches and mangers and camels and magi, to an ice holiday with the north pole, Santa, and reindeer.

This seems to offend many, who argue vehemently that none of this is pagan, but I don't know why. It reminds me of the believers who are offended that they are considered apes, as if that demeaned them. It doesn't. Nor does recognizing that Christmas has pagan elements. This attitude has already been associated with hating Christianity in this thread, but I just don't see it, any more than calling man an ape who evolved from other apes means one hates Christianity.

I confess to being an opponent of organized, politicized Christianity (antitheist) and the church as its agent, but not of its theology or of private, personal religion, about which I have no opinion. I don't know why I wouldn't have this exact same opinion were I still a Christian. I believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses have a negative view of the celebration of Christmas as well, seeing it as something foreign to Christianity, but they're Christian and certainly not enemies of the religion.

 

[wellwisher]

From what I remember, Jesus was actually a Pisces; fisher of men. Jesus's birth would have been somewhere between middle Feb to the middle of March. This time spanned was inferred by the timing of a census that occur at the birth of Jesus. The census required everyone go back to their town of birth to be counted. This is why the pregnant Mary, and Joseph had to travel at such a difficult time. The Inns were full, because of the people going to the census. The birth day was later changed to December 25.

Christianity was made the official religion of Rome in the 4th century. This was done as a reward to the Christian soldiers, who were Rome's best fighters at that time. They were fearless in battle; not afraid to walk in the shadow of death. Rome may have hoped this new official Religion would make the rest of their troops just as good.

Rome was the over dog, in charge of the merger. It still had a large empire, mostly in Europe. Rome had the policy of allowing local customs and religions, as long as there was law and order. The transition from this open religion concept into the Empire's new official religion, was made easier by making concessions with the various pagan religions of the empire, such as making December 25, the birthday of the Savior.

Saturnalia, the pagan Roman winter solstice festival. It was time for feasting, goodwill, generosity to the poor, the exchange of gifts and the decoration of trees. This pagan holiday fit into the spirit of the Christian teachings, and made it easier to extrapolate to a new way of life.

Jesus left behind the spirit of truth, with that spirit active, and a part of that decision process. To this day it unifies people both the religious and the secular.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

New From what I remember, Jesus was actually a Pisces; fisher of men. Jesus's birth would have been somewhere between middle Feb to the middle of March. This time spanned was inferred by the timing of a census that occur at the birth of Jesus. The census required everyone go back to their town of birth to be counted. This is why the pregnant Mary, and Joseph had to travel at such a difficult time. The Inns were full, because of the people going to the census. The birth day was later changed to December 25.

Since the census was - IMO - entirely made up, and because the timing for it described in the Bible is impossible, why insist it be on a particular date?

(Or is this all just because you think it would be fitting for a "fisher of men" to be a Pisces?)

 

[Augustus]

the imagery of Christmas has been infused with north European pagan influences

FTFY

 

[Augustus]

TBF this is usually how it goes? Folks who tend not to like Christianity very much parrot these weird lies about it to denigrate it.

This one (from about 13 mins) is a particularly fine example of this from 2 self-proclaimed "rational sceptics", on a show called "The thinking atheist"

I think they were competing against each other to win the prestigious "Greatest amount of nonsense spouted by an idiot award".

As well as things like Santa is Odin, and Christmas trees with candles replicate pagan tree sacrifices, the Aron Ra buffoon manages to indirectly link Santa with the founding of Islam via the council of Nicaea

 

[metis]

December 25 is when the "mass of Christ" was decided upon to celebrate Jesus in the western Church, but that does not in any way mean nor imply he was born on that day, which is impossible to determine. In Catholicism, we use a liturgical calendar that includes honoring saints as well.

The 25th was a Roman holiday, so even most Christians would have it off from work.

 

[Rival]

This one (from about 13 mins) is a particularly fine example of this from 2 self-proclaimed "rational sceptics", on a show called "The thinking atheist"

I think they were competing against each other to win the prestigious "Greatest amount of nonsense spouted by an idiot award".

As well as things like Santa is Odin, and Christmas trees with candles replicate pagan tree sacrifices, the Aron Ra buffoon manages to indirectly link Santa with the founding of Islam via the council of Nicaea

Ah yes, Christmas was invented in Northern Europe. I forgot.

 

[exchemist]

As I recall, Jesus was nailed to a cross, not a giant chocolate egg.

Er, that would be Easter.

But don't worry, the same question will get asked when Easter comes round. It always does.