Is consciousness physical or nonphysical?

[jchristopher]

Please explain how you think this might be the case.

Well, this law says that everything will break down and disintegrate into unorganized matter. How do you account for birth, growth and healing? How is it that our bodies can maintain an equilibrium over the course of nearly a century? What is the organizing force behind these things? Can you find a scientific law that explains it?

 

[Bunyip]

Well, this law says that everything will break down and disintegrate into unorganized matter. How do you account for birth, growth and healing? How is it that our bodies can maintain an equilibrium over the course of nearly a century? What is the organizing force behind these things? Can you find a scientific law that explains it?

Sure, that is,pretty simple. Whilst it is true that the universe trends towards increasing entropy - subsets of the universe trend towards order. Ecosystems, snow flakes, crystals, bubbles, the patterns on sand dunes etc. Here is a great little experiment to demonstrate a natural trend towards increased order - take a bag of beer bottle tops and shake it gently for a while, you willl find that the caps start to form long chains of stacked caps.

 

[jchristopher]

Sure, that is,pretty simple. Whilst it is true that the universe trends towards increasing entropy - subsets of the universe trend towards order. Ecosystems, snow flakes, crystals, bubbles, the patterns on sand dunes etc. Here is a great little experiment to demonstrate a natural trend towards increased order - take a bag of beer bottle tops and shake it gently for a while, you willl find that the caps start to form long chains of stacked caps.

What's the scientific law that explains or even identifies the ordering and/or maintenance of those "subsets"? The 2nd law of thermodynamics explains entropy, what law explains the opposite??

 

[Bunyip]

What's the scientific law that explains or even identifies the ordering and/or maintenance of those "subsets"? The 2nd law of thermodynamics explains entropy, what law explains the opposite??

Well as far as increasing complexity in organic life we have something better than a law - we have a theory, evolution. For snowflakes we have the Theory of growth by differential sedimentation. The second law by the way refers to waste heat in closed mechanical systems, ecosystems for example are not closed mechanical systems.

 

[Runewolf1973]

What's the scientific law that explains or even identifies the ordering and/or maintenance of those "subsets"? The 2nd law of thermodynamics explains entropy, what law explains the opposite??

I don't know, but gravity tends to bring things together in specific orders.

 

[Deidre]

Without consciousness, we wouldn't be aware of the physical. So, I'm more inclined to viewing physicality as dependent on consciousness. I don't know if 'awareness' can be considered physical. Hmmm.

 

[shawn001]

Well, this law says that everything will break down and disintegrate into unorganized matter. How do you account for birth, growth and healing? How is it that our bodies can maintain an equilibrium over the course of nearly a century? What is the organizing force behind these things? Can you find a scientific law that explains it?

"It is a matter of common experience, that things get more disordered and chaotic with time. This observation can be elevated to the status of a law, the so-called Second Law of Thermodynamics. This says that the total amount of disorder, or entropy, in the universe, always increases with time. However, the Law refers only to the total amount of disorder. The order in one body can increase, provided that the amount of disorder in its surroundings increases by a greater amount. This is what happens in a living being. One can define Life to be an ordered system that can sustain itself against the tendency to disorder, and can reproduce itself. That is, it can make similar, but independent, ordered systems. To do these things, the system must convert energy in some ordered form, like food, sunlight, or electric power, into disordered energy, in the form of heat. In this way, the system can satisfy the requirement that the total amount of disorder increases, while, at the same time, increasing the order in itself and its offspring. A living being usually has two elements: a set of instructions that tell the system how to sustain and reproduce itself, and a mechanism to carry out the instructions. In biology, these two parts are called genes and metabolism."

Life in the Universe - Stephen Hawking

 

[Bunyip]

Without consciousness, we wouldn't be aware of the physical. So, I'm more inclined to viewing physicality as dependent on consciousness. I don't know if 'awareness' can be considered physical. Hmmm.

That seems illogical to me. Without eyes you can not see an apple, but it still exists. Whether or not we are aware of something has no impact on whether it exists or not. We have never found a non-physical consciousness, all known consciousnesses emerge from a physical brain. Brains can be unconsciouss - but consciousness can not be unbrained.

 

[Deidre]

That seems illogical to me. Without eyes you can not see an apple, but it still exists. Whether or not we are aware of something has no impact on whether it exists or not. We have never found a non-physical consciousness, all known consciousnesses emerge from a physical brain. Brains can be unconsciouss - but consciousness can not be unbrained.

How can we measure consciousness then? The actual OT question is...is consciousness physical or non-physical? A brain is physical, yes. And yes, the physical realm exists if you or I are aware of it or not. But is your consciousness actually in and of itself...measureable?

It's one of those things that often leaves my mind guessing, but I lean that it's non-physical.

 

[Bunyip]

How can we measure consciousness then? The actual OT question is...is consciousness physical or non-physical? A brain is physical, yes. And yes, the physical realm exists if you or I are aware of it or not. But is your consciousness actually in and of itself...measureable?

It's one of those things that often leaves my mind guessing, but I lean that it's non-physical.

What is the significance of being able to measure consciousness? What kind of units would you think we could measure it in?
I see consciousness as an emergent property, or product of physical processes.

 

[Deidre]

What is the significance of being able to measure consciousness? What kind of units would you think we could measure it in?

Because if you can't quantify it somehow, it's not part of the physical realm. It exists, but it's not physical. No one can measure or quantify consciousness.

 

[shawn001]

It confirms that the test subject is another reality which is different than brain.

No it helps confirmed a lot about how important our subconscious brain is and how are brain works physically.

 

[Bunyip]

Because if you can't quantify it somehow, it's not part of the physical realm. It exists, but it's not physical. No one can measure or quantify consciousness.

Sure, it is not physical - but is a product or property of the physical.

 

[Deidre]

Sure, it is not physical - but is a product or property of the physical.

Yep, agreed.

 

[Deidre]

Oh, I see why my first post was confusing. ha Yes, I implied (not intentionally, that was poorly explained)...that objective reality relies on us being aware of it. lol When objective reality (absolutes) exist whether we are aware of them or not.

Sorry, my bad in not explaining that well.

 

[shawn001]

Mediation and Neuroplasity has a positive effect on the brain.

Neuroplasticity should be part of any discussion, as well as the subconscious on consciousness.

 

[Bunyip]

Oh, I see why my first post was confusing. ha Yes, I implied (not intentionally, that was poorly explained)...that objective reality relies on us being aware of it. lol When objective reality (absolutes) exist whether we are aware of them or not.

Sorry, my bad in not explaining that well.

Well that strikes at the heart of the question here Dierdre, the terminology we apply to this question is so problematic. I don't think the words we use are sufficient.

 

[Deidre]

Well that strikes at the heart of the question here Dierdre, the terminology we apply to this question is so problematic. I don't think the words we use are sufficient.

True...And also...how the door to the spiritual realm gets opened and science gets weaved into things. I've read a lot on how religious people (even religious scientists) will try to suggest that consciousness, and perhaps altered 'states' of consciousness have to do with a person and his/her God, rather than merely a person and his/her world. If someone has an intuition or a 'sense' that a god exists, would that fall under consciousness? (an awareness)

Asking it another way....what is the relationship between consciousness and a pseudo-reality/spiritual reality? Hmmm...

 

[Runewolf1973]

Exactly how is consciouness not physical? What does your consciousness do? It allows us to interact with our environment in a complex manner. All of those many senses -sight, hearing, feeling, tasting, etc...- which we bundle up and term our "consciouness" are nothing more than complex physical interactions. Sure we can't measure consciouness when we bundle all those things together into one seemingly "mysterious" entity, but we can measure sight, hearing, feeling, tasting, etc...individually which all make up that which we call our consciousness. The way to measure consciouness physically, is to break it down into it's constituents.

 

[Deidre]

Consciousness in and of itself, will never be measureable...that's more of the issue. It's not that we haven't figured out how to measure it...it's that it is impossible to measure. Therefore, standing alone...consciousness probably can't fall into the physical realm.