Also, let's say your father was a serial killer, but you have never committed any crime more serious than a parking violation. Should you be executed for what your father did?
If my father committed a crime that made me into a hideous monster with the traits of the Joker, of Fred Kruger.. Or.... Yes.
It happens in a lab, for example. They are changing the DNA of living things. If those living things pass on their genes, the offspring inherits the traits... and they mutate, making them worst.
Adam passed on a defect to all his offspring. Sin.
Well, if you want me to respond differently, perhaps offering more than a belief that humans are like mechanical devices that just need tweaking, might be in order.
It is against forum rules to state even an obvious truth without using i believe type language. But I believe there is plenty of evidence that humans are the biological equivalent of automatons, and that evidence is in the way human behaviour is modified by altering brain chemistry, altering brain formation (eg the removal of brain tumours), and altering environmental inputs.
Which is not much different to the way the behaviour of an automaton is altered depending on its wiring, programming and inputs.
That leave nothing to go by, except imagining all sorts of stupid things that can be done to make humans what you think they should be... which we are all still in the dark about.
I'm saying if God requires us to be sinless to avoid destruction in my view God should have created us sinless.
Jesus is alleged to have been sinless so its not as if God is incapable of creating sinless people according to my understanding of the received version of events.
It is against forum rules to state even an obvious truth without using i believe type language. But I believe there is plenty of evidence that humans are the biological equivalent of automatons, and that evidence is in the way human behaviour is modified by altering brain chemistry, altering brain formation (eg the removal of brain tumours), and altering environmental inputs.
Which is not much different to the way the behaviour of an automaton is altered depending on its wiring, programming and inputs.
I'm saying if God requires us to be sinless to avoid destruction in my view God should have created us sinless.
Jesus is alleged to have been sinless so its not as if God is incapable of creating sinless people according to my understanding of the received version of events.
Of course. I hope nobody ever expects arguments on forums like this to actually change anybody's mind? At least not about anything as basic as this subject. Consider, you believe there is an all powerful God. I don't. You believe that the Bible is that God's literal word. I think it is a very interesting set of old documents, with as much value as other old documents (which is not zero). Do you expect us ever to agree? We have totally different world views. We can still express our views and enjoy doing so.
I think, why we usually circle this, like the moon circling the earth, is because there is a point that continually gets missed.
Maybe I'm not doing a good job in making that point clear.
I'll try to make it simpler, if I can.
To you, and a whole set of other people... a baby is innocent -> because -> It is incapable of committing a crime at that point.
Question: A crime against whom? Example:
You are in South Africa, after moving from the U.S. You do what you are accustomed to - that is, driving on the right hand side of the road. The officers stop you, and give you a warning. You insist on doing what you did back home. They charge you for a crime against the law of the state of S.A. Not a crime against the U.S.
This may be a lousy example, but it's just to make a point. I hope you saw it.
What is a crime to God, who set the law, and put the penalties in place, are not dictated by the laws the U.S., S.A., you, I, or anyone else.
The law of God says, sin - missing the mark of God's righteous standards, which he has the right to set - is a crime. The penalty : Death. Romans 6:23 - ...the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.
So, while you can only see crime from the point of view of man, and you are limiting God to that level of crime, you are failing to see the level of crime - a higher one, that for whatever reason, you can't see, and in the case of atheists, would not see, or don't want to see.
Unless one is willing to accept that humans are not the ones with the ultimate right to set the standard of what is good and bad, they will never accept that.
This is a familiar line of argument, and does in fact "win" in a sense. If God is all powerful we are totally subject to whatever he chooses to do, and whatever he says "good" and "bad" are. It doesn't matter what we think about his actions, he's going to do them anyway and we might as well get used to it. It doesn't matter whether we think he is good, bad, fair or unfair, our opinions don't count because his judgement always trumps ours.
I say the argument wins, because the conclusion follows logically from the premises.
I said I don't want to debate it, so I'll leave it there.
To address your second point. Hopefully you got my point.
If my father committed a crime that made me into a hideous monster with the traits of the Joker, of Fred Kruger.. Or.... Yes.
It happens in a lab, for example. They are changing the DNA of living things. If those living things pass on their genes, the offspring inherits the traits... and they mutate, making them worst.
Adam passed on a defect to all his offspring. Sin.
I get the point. Babies are inherently damaged, as are we all.
I could comment that it seems unfair that all sin is the same, with the same penalty, but as you said in the previous response, we don't even get to make that judgment as our judgment is always inferior.
I'll just ask this one question. Doesn't that make our situation the most bleak and hopeless you could ever imagine? What's the point of trying to be good? We're damned before we are even born.
I get the point. Babies are inherently damaged, as are we all.
I could comment that it seems unfair that all sin is the same, with the same penalty, but as you said in the previous response, we don't even get to make that judgment as our judgment is always inferior.
I'll just ask this one question. Doesn't that make our situation the most bleak and hopeless you could ever imagine? What's the point of trying to be good? We're damned before we are even born.
The situation Adam handed down to his offspring is indeed bleak, and "hopeless"... if God did not provide the rescue device.
You might think of it, like the Covid19 era. People consider the vaccine a blessing - the "life saver". Some think that without it, there was no hope. Some.
That is how Paul described mankind's situation, prior to what God did to lift mankind from "sinking into the mire".
"...you had no hope and were without God in the world." Paul said.
Then he said, "But now in union with Christ Jesus, you who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ." Ephesians 2:12, 13
So, no. Because of the ransom sacrifice of Christ... which again, unbelievers reject, or do not acknowledge as anything that makes sense, mankind is not damned... unless of course, they don't want to "take God's hand".
It takes effort, of course, but we appreciate making the effort, as we realize, it's worth it.
To address your second point. Hopefully you got my point.
If my father committed a crime that made me into a hideous monster with the traits of the Joker, of Fred Kruger.. Or.... Yes.
It happens in a lab, for example. They are changing the DNA of living things. If those living things pass on their genes, the offspring inherits the traits... and they mutate, making them worst.
Adam passed on a defect to all his offspring. Sin.
So, no. Because of the ransom sacrifice of Christ... which again, unbelievers reject, or do not acknowledge as anything that makes sense, mankind is not damned... unless of course, they don't want to "take God's hand".
OK, understood. Do you think that everyone has a chance to be saved one way or another, or does it have to be through Christ? I'm thinking of people born in, say, Muslim countries where they are brought up to believe in Islam and don't think they need anything else to be right with God? And people who lived during the early days of Christianity where it hadn't spread to the whole world and most people hadn't heard of it.
Young ones were also subjected to cruelty, some experts suggest.
Early human ate young Neanderthal
Sometime between 28,000 and 30,000 years ago, an anatomically modern human in what is now France may have eaten a Neanderthal child, according to a new study. It is the first study to suggest Europe's first humans had a violent relationship with their muscular, big-headed hominid ancestors.
Some archaeologists also believe there is evidence of much cruel acts against children, as young as babies.
Ancient Authorities Reported Child Sacrifice In Carthage
Writing in the 4th century B.C.E, the Greek historian Cleitarchus said of the Carthaginian practice, “There stands in their midst a bronze statue of Kronos, its hands extended over a bronze brazier, the flames of which engulf the child. When the flames fall upon the body, the limbs contract and the open mouth seems almost to be laughing until the contracted body slips quietly into the brazier. Thus it is that the ‘grin’ is known as ‘sardonic laughter,’ since they die laughing.” (trans. Paul G. Mosca) “Kronos” was a regional name for Baal Hammon, the chief of Carthage’s gods.
Another Greek historian named Diodorus Siculus writing less than a hundred years after the fall Carthage affirms his countryman’s account. “There was in their city a bronze image of Cronus extending its hands, palms up and sloping toward the ground, so that each of the children when placed thereon rolled down and fell into a sort of gaping pit filled with fire.”
List of youngest killers Ziapasa Daughter, 3-Year-Old Murderess – West Virginia, 1906 The youngest murderess in the history of this state is the 3-year-old daughter of Michael Ziapasa, of Benwood, who so badly wounded a 2-months-old baby of a neighbor, Edward Schepech, that it died.
In the absence of the baby’s mother, the Ziapasa child attacked it with a butcher knife, cutting off its nose, stabbing it in the breast in many places and almost severing its arm.
Of particular interest, are the youngest of the murderesses.
Do you think that everyone has a chance to be saved one way or another, or does it have to be through Christ? I'm thinking of people born in, say, Muslim countries where they are brought up to believe in Islam and don't think they need anything else to be right with God?
I know of people who were bought up believing that there is only one way - your fists. Others - guns. Still others - my way.
My point is, it does not matter how one is brought up. If there is only one way, then something needs to change, and it's not that one way.
If Christ is wrong, then I am wrong. If the Bible is wrong, then I am wrong. I can't be both right and wrong at the same time.
So far, I don't see anything else showing itself to be right.
If that day comes, then I need to adjust.
The thing is everyone can't be right. ...and everyone can't be following the way, and going in all different direction.
If you are going toward North, you can't be, at the same time going toward the South. You would agree.
We may think we are right, but what's right, won't change to be what we think is right.
For example, many scientist think that the earth will end, when the sun dies.
If that's true, what anyone else believes won't change that.
Based on their calculations, none of us would be around to know if it's true, or not.
If it is true that we are living in the last days of this system of things, and Armageddon is 'just around the corner' millions of us alive today, will get to realize that truth.
The majority of us, won't get to tell the story though.
I used to believe things I came to realize were not what the Bible really teaches. I was in a "Christian" religion, but I had to leave, if I were to follow the way Christ outlined.
Many people have left their former course in life, to follow the way Christ outlined.
Some actually thought that their former course of life was the way to live, but what they learned, changed their thinking.
Here is an experience.
We need a change of mentality in this world. If that happened, people would put down their guns.
That's the beauty of the ransom sacrifice of Christ.
The Bible says Jesus came to "give his soul a ransom in exchange for many" - Matthew 20:28.
This however, was put in place from the time Adam sinned, so that in God's eyes, the ransom, which basically means a price that covers, was as good as paid, even before men grew in numbers on the earth.
The Hebrew noun koʹpher comes from the verb ka·pharʹ, meaning, basically, “to cover, as in Noah’s covering the ark with tar. (Genesis 6:14) Ka·pharʹ, however, is used almost entirely to describe the satisfying of justice through the covering or atoning for sins. The noun koʹpher refers to the thing given to accomplish this, the ransom price. (Psalms 65:3; 78:38; 79:8, 9) A covering corresponds to the thing it covers, either in its form (as in a material lid, such as the “cover [khap·poʹreth]” of the ark of the covenant [Exodus 25:17-22]), or in its value (as in a payment to cover the damages caused by an injury).
Hence, the Bible says, "God presented him as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood. This was to demonstrate his own righteousness, because God in his forbearance was forgiving the sins that occurred in the past. This was to demonstrate his own righteousness in this present season, so that he might be righteous even when declaring righteous the man who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:25, 26
So, every person that died, prior to hearing about Christ, their sins were forgiven by God. Except... Except those who died as judged by God as wicked.
This would be persons God directly effaced from the earth. For example... in the flood, as well as persons God does not remember - Like Adam, and persons who fit his category.
God has that information, so I hope you were not about to ask, if Hitler is one of those.
The Bible says, "the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out" (John 5:28).
So, people who were unrighteous - that is, did wrong, but in ignorance, are remembered by God, and will return to life, in God's new world. Acts 24:15
So, even, those who were misled - Dead Muslims; Dead Hindus; Dead Buddhist; etc, will get to live again, because their sins were covered.
It's different however, for those of us today who do not accept the good news. The Bible says, we have no excuse for not knowing. 2 Thessalonians 1:8. Here is why. Matthew 24:14
Just curious as to your thoughts... do you think that is unfair, or harsh?
Also, I was wondering, why you think mankind has the right to determine right from wrong.
That is of course, if you think so.
I know of people who were bought up believing that there is only one way - your fists. Others - guns. Still others - my way.
My point is, it does not matter how one is brought up. If there is only one way, then something needs to change, and it's not that one way.
If Christ is wrong, then I am wrong. If the Bible is wrong, then I am wrong. I can't be both right and wrong at the same time.
So far, I don't see anything else showing itself to be right.
If that day comes, then I need to adjust.
The thing is everyone can't be right. ...and everyone can't be following the way, and going in all different direction.
If you are going toward North, you can't be, at the same time going toward the South. You would agree.
We may think we are right, but what's right, won't change to be what we think is right.
For example, many scientist think that the earth will end, when the sun dies.
If that's true, what anyone else believes won't change that.
Based on their calculations, none of us would be around to know if it's true, or not.
If it is true that we are living in the last days of this system of things, and Armageddon is 'just around the corner' millions of us alive today, will get to realize that truth.
The majority of us, won't get to tell the story though.
I used to believe things I came to realize were not what the Bible really teaches. I was in a "Christian" religion, but I had to leave, if I were to follow the way Christ outlined.
Many people have left their former course in life, to follow the way Christ outlined.
Some actually thought that their former course of life was the way to live, but what they learned, changed their thinking.
Here is an experience.
That's the beauty of the ransom sacrifice of Christ.
The Bible says Jesus came to "give his soul a ransom in exchange for many" - Matthew 20:28.
This however, was put in place from the time Adam sinned, so that in God's eyes, the ransom, which basically means a price that covers, was as good as paid, even before men grew in numbers on the earth.
The Hebrew noun koʹpher comes from the verb ka·pharʹ, meaning, basically, “to cover, as in Noah’s covering the ark with tar. (Genesis 6:14) Ka·pharʹ, however, is used almost entirely to describe the satisfying of justice through the covering or atoning for sins. The noun koʹpher refers to the thing given to accomplish this, the ransom price. (Psalms 65:3; 78:38; 79:8, 9) A covering corresponds to the thing it covers, either in its form (as in a material lid, such as the “cover [khap·poʹreth]” of the ark of the covenant [Exodus 25:17-22]), or in its value (as in a payment to cover the damages caused by an injury).
Hence, the Bible says, "God presented him as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood. This was to demonstrate his own righteousness, because God in his forbearance was forgiving the sins that occurred in the past. This was to demonstrate his own righteousness in this present season, so that he might be righteous even when declaring righteous the man who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:25, 26
So, every person that died, prior to hearing about Christ, their sins were forgiven by God. Except... Except those who died as judged by God as wicked.
This would be persons God directly effaced from the earth. For example... in the flood, as well as persons God does not remember - Like Adam, and persons who fit his category.
God has that information, so I hope you were not about to ask, if Hitler is one of those.
The Bible says, "the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out" (John 5:28).
So, people who were unrighteous - that is, did wrong, but in ignorance, are remembered by God, and will return to life, in God's new world. Acts 24:15
So, even, those who were misled - Dead Muslims; Dead Hindus; Dead Buddhist; etc, will get to live again, because their sins were covered.
It's different however, for those of us today who do not accept the good news. The Bible says, we have no excuse for not knowing. 2 Thessalonians 1:8. Here is why. Matthew 24:14
As we've noted before, according to you it doesn't matter what I think. But yes, it does seem unfair that someone who leads an exemplary life (as far as we are capable of that) but makes an honest mistake about which version of God to worship should be destroyed (or in hell?) but all sincere Christians, good or bad, should be saved. To me it makes salvation something like a quiz game.
This is a difficult one, as we are coming from different places. In my world view we can and do make these determinations, we sort of have to.
In your world view, well, let's see. As I understand it, we don't have that right. I must say I find it somewhat contradictory. We are supposed to have free will, which justifies our being held accountable for our actions. But then we are told we can't determine right and wrong as God determines that, not us. That seems to make our consciences useless, as we can only know what is right or wrong by looking it up in the Bible. So do we actually have any free will other than the ability to choose to obey God or not? These are not all my thoughts on the subject.
I don't think it will happen, so we probably agree. Or do you think it's likely to happen?
I know that it happened among true Christians. none of them carry, use, make, or work with guns.
As we've noted before, according to you it doesn't matter what I think. But yes, it does seem unfair that someone who leads an exemplary life (as far as we are capable of that) but makes an honest mistake about which version of God to worship should be destroyed (or in hell?) but all sincere Christians, good or bad, should be saved. To me it makes salvation something like a quiz game.
Willful ignorance is not an honest mistake, far as we know.
The scriptures say God is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and he has the good news preached as a witness, before he brings the end.
So, that obviously does not translate to 'honest mistake'.
In fact, Jesus highlighted the problem when he said... "...as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so it will be..." Matthew 24:38, 39
Noah preached to the people (2 Peter 2:5), before the end came, in a really wicked and depraved world, but people were comfortable, and paid him no mind.
That's willful ignorance. Not an honest mistake.
God knows the heart, and the Bible says he draws people of honest heart. So he pays attention to honest mistakes, and 'takes that person's hand'.
The Bible says he sees the arrogant from a distance.
How is that not fair.
In the book of Jeremiah, it says, It does not belong to man, to direct his step.
Based on what we are actually seeing, you believe that is wrong, and man does have the ability to determine right and wrong?
Does that mean you think so regardless of where man find himself in the long run, from his mistakes?
In your world view, well, let's see. As I understand it, we don't have that right. I must say I find it somewhat contradictory. We are supposed to have free will, which justifies our being held accountable for our actions. But then we are told we can't determine right and wrong as God determines that, not us. That seems to make our consciences useless, as we can only know what is right or wrong by looking it up in the Bible. So do we actually have any free will other than the ability to choose to obey God or not? These are not all my thoughts on the subject.
View it like you would if you had perfect parents.
Would you want to make decisions on your own without your parents guidance and advice?
Why, or why not?
