Is "Cruelty" Ever Justified?

[danieldemol]

Scripture and verse, please. Or is that just another assertion?

It is Christians that are asserting that Jesus was sinless eg. 1 Peter 2:22 says as translated by the NIV;
'“He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth.”'

In my view one cannot be both born a sinner and sinless at the same time, so it seems like a fair conclusion to say that Jesus was allegedly sinless from the moment of His creation.

So the logic goes;
P1 Jesus was allegedly created by God
P2 Jesus was allegedly sinless from the moment of creation
Conclusion: if these allegations are true then Jesus was created sinless.

See if you can fault that logic without wondering off into strawmen and irrelevancy.

In my opinion.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Out of curiosity, why would God let himself into "this place called heaven," when he himself killed millions of innocent children (all the babies during the flood, the first-born of Egypt who didn't do anything, the children of the Canaanites)?

Look deeper into the resurrection. The son and the father become one. What the son experiences the father experiences. Injustice is irredeemable. Redemption can only come through rebirth and starting anew.

The spirit of truth will confirm all of this at the end if you are willing to marry yourself to it. For now, all you get is stillness, silence, division, a feeling, and a window of opportunity. Like a thief in the night.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Look deeper into the resurrection. The son and the father become one. What the son experiences the father experiences. Injustice is irredeemable. Redemption can only come through rebirth and starting anew.

The spirit of truth will confirm all of this at the end if you are willing to marry yourself to it. For now, all you get is stillness, silence, division, a feeling, and a window of opportunity. Like a thief in the night.

That is your story. I do not believe in God or soul, but still do not support cruelty. Punish wrong-doers, hang them if their crime merits it, But do it according to law. (Note: lashes, stoning, beheading is OK for Muslims. It is their law)

 

[Treasure Hunter]

That is your story. I do not believe in God or soul, but still do not support cruelty. Punish wrong-doers, hang them if their crime merits it, But do it according to law. (Note: lashes, stoning, beheading is OK for Muslims. It is their law)

A man finds himself lost but trusts himself to find the way. Later, that same man finds himself lost again and trusts himself to find the way.

Which comes first: The man stops trusting himself with the way or he stops trusting the truth that he is lost?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

A man finds himself lost but trusts himself to find the way. Later, that same man finds himself lost again and trusts himself to find the way.

Which comes first: The man stops trusting himself with the way or he stops trusting the truth that he is lost?

Too preachy to have a lot of meaning.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Too preachy to have a lot of meaning.

A manager is fired for squandering the resources of the company but that manager continues to assume the position of manager illegitimately. A strong man who cares about the company and his employees would confront the fired manager and tell him to step down.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Why not, God is alleged to have created Jesus obedient after all.
In my opinion.

Jesus had less agency and free-will than the rest of us? Is that what it means to be “fully man” to you?

 

[YoursTrue]

God has made heaven for Christians. Why would He let the evil wicked, depraved and perverse, who cause cruelty, enter this place called heaven.

That's a good question. My question is for as many posters who care to answer or think about it: Is death cruel?? Maybe a new topic...but interesting to see some answers about that which sets the stage depending on which stage one is looking at. So again -- is death cruel??

 

[Treasure Hunter]

That's a good question. My question is for as many posters who care to answer or think about it: Is death cruel?? Maybe a new topic...but interesting to see some answers about that which sets the stage depending on which stage one is looking at. So again -- is death cruel??

Look at a child grieving in anguish over the death of a loved one and the answer is undeniable.

Another question: What is the appropriate response to cosmic cruelty, specifically toward a child?

 

[YoursTrue]

Look at a child grieving in anguish over the death of a loved one and the answer is undeniable.

Another question: What is the appropriate response to cosmic cruelty, specifically toward a child?

that is a good question. The Bible says all humans are under the penalty of death because of Adam. And because Adam joined in with his wife in going against God's rulership, he died as a result. We all inherit sinful nature from having come from Adam. I know this may not answer the question for you, but it helps me to reason on things. Because I believe that one day the earth and those lliving on it will be transformed to a far better place where children will not be dying and where cruelty will be no more. (Isaiah chapter 65 is a good start.)

 

[YoursTrue]

It is Christians that are asserting that Jesus was sinless eg. 1 Peter 2:22 says as translated by the NIV;
'“He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth.”'

In my view one cannot be both born a sinner and sinless at the same time, so it seems like a fair conclusion to say that Jesus was allegedly sinless from the moment of His creation.

So the logic goes;
P1 Jesus was allegedly created by God
P2 Jesus was allegedly sinless from the moment of creation
Conclusion: if these allegations are true then Jesus was created sinless.

See if you can fault that logic without wondering off into strawmen and irrelevancy.

In my opinion.

Jesus was put to death. He did not inherit sin. He did not die of a disease. He was killed according to mandate.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

that is a good question. The Bible says all humans are under the penalty of death because of Adam. And because Adam joined in with his wife in going against God's rulership, he died as a result. We all inherit sinful nature from having come from Adam. I know this may not answer the question for you, but it helps me to reason on things. Because I believe that one day the earth and those lliving on it will be transformed to a far better place where children will not be dying and where cruelty will be no more. (Isaiah chapter 65 is a good start.)

A child is being flooded with despair and anguish to a level that is traumatizing. Is that not a cosmic injustice? When you say it helps to reason, do you mean by rationalizing how it’s not a cosmic injustice when part of you sees that it is? Why would I want to reason that away?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

A child is being flooded with despair and anguish to a level that is traumatizing. Is that not a cosmic injustice? When you say it helps to reason, do you mean by rationalizing how it’s not a cosmic injustice when part of you sees that it is? Why would I want to reason that away?

This brings us back to the story of Job. Who has the moral high ground: Job with his sense of cosmic injustice or his friends who try to rationalize it away? What happens at the end?

 

[Nimos]

For discussion...
Are acts against cruelty, in itself, an act of cruelty?

Cruelty in my opinion is one of those grey areas that depend on the situation. Because it can be a form of justice, that most people will agree is good. Let's say that one kid is getting bullied for whatever reason. If the bullies get a taste of their own medicine and the kid might find enjoyment in that which could be seen as getting justice even though it might be an act of cruelty done to them.

However torturing someone that committed a terrible crime just for the sake of torturing them, I'm not so sure is beneficial for anyone, even though the people initially wishing for it believes so. Also one could fear that performing cruel acts is acceptable as a tool or way of getting justice.

I can however understand why people would see an urge to call for cruel acts against someone that have done something terrible to them, let's say killed and raped their child.

But to answer your question more directly, doing cruel acts against someone that was cruel first (if that is how the question is to be understood) is a cruel act, I don't think it matter who did it first. But as mentioned above it can be seen as a form of justice in one case and not in the other.

 

[Alien826]

I don't think it will happen, so we probably agree. Or do you think it's likely to happen?
I know that it happened among true Christians. none of them carry, use, make, or work with guns.

No, I don't think it is likely. We seem to have aggression and greed built in, and those that have them most tend to get themselves into leadership positions.

Willful ignorance is not an honest mistake, far as we know.
The scriptures say God is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and he has the good news preached as a witness, before he brings the end.
So, that obviously does not translate to 'honest mistake'.

In fact, Jesus highlighted the problem when he said... "...as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so it will be..." Matthew 24:38, 39

Noah preached to the people (2 Peter 2:5), before the end came, in a really wicked and depraved world, but people were comfortable, and paid him no mind.
That's willful ignorance. Not an honest mistake.
God knows the heart, and the Bible says he draws people of honest heart. So he pays attention to honest mistakes, and 'takes that person's hand'.

The Bible says he sees the arrogant from a distance.
How is that not fair.

I agree that willful ignorance is not an honest mistake. Where I disagree is categorizing all honest mistakes as willful ignorance. Hmm, we have an example here. Do you think I am willfully ignorant? I've spent a lot of time looking into these things and as far as I can tell I genuinely don't believe as you do. Go ahead, I won't be offended. You can ask me questions if you like, I'll answer as accurately as I can.

In the book of Jeremiah, it says, It does not belong to man, to direct his step.
Based on what we are actually seeing, you believe that is wrong, and man does have the ability to determine right and wrong?
Does that mean you think so regardless of where man find himself in the long run, from his mistakes?

With no belief in God, I can only say that we either direct our own "steps" or nobody does. And the fact that we haven't been too successful in many ways doesn't affect that. It's the different world views again.

 

[Alien826]

View it like you would if you had perfect parents.
Would you want to make decisions on your own without your parents guidance and advice?
Why, or why not?

Guidance and advice would be great, but I'd want to retain the right to make the ultimate decisions. Punishment, if that's the right word, would come from the results of my wrong decisions, not because I disobeyed my parents. Otherwise, what am I but a reflection of my parents? That's looking at it from the perspective of having human parents, which is how you phrased it.

From your description of God, the "perfect parent", though, it's more a demand for total obedience often without understanding the reasons behind the commands. After all, we can't understand right and wrong, correct?

 

[Alien826]

That's a good question. My question is for as many posters who care to answer or think about it: Is death cruel?? Maybe a new topic...but interesting to see some answers about that which sets the stage depending on which stage one is looking at. So again -- is death cruel??

No. Life must end, it's how nature works. Otherwise we would be miles deep in creatures, all busy propagating more creatures.

The means by which death comes about can be cruel, and those still living can be unhappy as a result of it it, but death itself? No.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

No. Life must end, it's how nature works. Otherwise we would be miles deep in creatures, all busy propagating more creatures.

The means by which death comes about can be cruel, and those still living can be unhappy as a result of it it, but death itself? No.

You seem to be saying that part of how death manifests in the world is cruel but death overall is not cruel. If I am cruel, but only some of the time, am I not cruel overall?

Whether or not death is necessary is separate from the question of its cruelty. The question isn’t if death is necessary.

 

[Apostle John]

That's a good question. My question is for as many posters who care to answer or think about it: Is death cruel?? Maybe a new topic...but interesting to see some answers about that which sets the stage depending on which stage one is looking at. So again -- is death cruel??

Death is a morbid subject. It can be quick or prolonged. In my view it’s not cruel if one is a Christian and knows the heaven that awaits. I’m actually preparing to avoid death by being in the rapture but don’t mind if I suffer expire before.

 

[nPeace]

It is Christians that are asserting that Jesus was sinless eg. 1 Peter 2:22 says as translated by the NIV;
'“He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth.”'

In my view one cannot be both born a sinner and sinless at the same time, so it seems like a fair conclusion to say that Jesus was allegedly sinless from the moment of His creation.

So the logic goes;
P1 Jesus was allegedly created by God
P2 Jesus was allegedly sinless from the moment of creation
Conclusion: if these allegations are true then Jesus was created sinless.

See if you can fault that logic without wondering off into strawmen and irrelevancy.

In my opinion.

The Bible does say Christ was sinless.
Hebrews 4:15 ...we have one who has been tested in all respects as we have, but without sin.
Hebrews 7:26 says, Jesus was "separated from the sinners".

The scripture you quoted, in Peter, says Jesus committed no sin.
This tells us that Jesus did not sin - did not do wrong.

God create no one sinful. that is a no-brainer.
So all the angels, as well as Adam and Eve were created sinless.

Some people don't seem to know that Jesus was created in heaven long before coming to earth as a human. They seem to think that Jesus first came into existence from the womb of Mary.
I hope you are not speaking from that misconception.

The reason Jesus was born sinless, is as the angel told Mary, “Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. And for that reason the one who is born will be called holy, God’s Son." Luke 1:35

Jesus, therefore, was not born from defective seed, as from Adam, and his offspring, and so sin was not passed on to him. Hence, Jesus was perfect from birth - the only man born without sin... apart for Adam.

So in both cases -

• being created in heaven as a spirit son
• being born on earth as a human

Jesus was sinless.

The mistake most people make, is associating sinless, with cannot sin.
That is a huge misunderstanding, which I hope you are not following suit.
Are you?

Jesus could sin - that is, he could break God's law; disobey God.
Jesus however, obeyed God, because he loves his father, and always does the things pleasing to God, because he wants to, of his own free will.
'the One who sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to him.' John 8:29

Adam could have done the same. Adam was created without sin.
We can choose to obey God, in our imperfect sinful state, but we will fall short, always, because we are sinful... not sinless.

So the assertion "God is alleged to have created Jesus obedient after all", is not scriptural.
Sinless - without sin - does not mean obedient, any more than obedient means sinless. Sinful people are obedient to God.
So is one sinless, because they obey God? No. That is not accurate.
Neither is it logical, is it.