Is Faith Valuable?

[PureX]

Once one has justified their belief with reason, evidence, and/or logic, then it automatically doesn’t count as faith any longer.

Wrong. And the reason this is wrong is because you still don't have any actual knowledge. All you have is reasonable probability, and that still requires faith - faith that the probability will be manifested. I agree that as certainty increases, faith diminishes, but we NEVER have absolute certainty of anything, and so we still have to act on some degree of faith regarding EVERYTHING we do.

Now it doesn’t necessarily count as hope either, but still it isn’t faith.

Faith is hope being acted upon. In the case you gave above, we hope that what appears a reasonably probable outcome will in actuality turn out to be what happens.

The difference between hope and faith is that faith only exists outside of reason, only in the irrational.

Wrong again. Faith begins with reason, and proceeds on where reason comes up short of knowledge.

I will agree that faith is equal to willful ignorance, but hope can be obtained outside of the irrationality, and can therefore be infinitely more useful than faith.

Like I said, you can call "faith" the smelly stuff that comes out of a cow's butt, and get everyone to agree that it's bad stuff, but your definition is still wrong. Willful ignorance is willful ignorance. Faith is not willful ignorance. Faith is hope being acted upon in the face of our inevitable ignorance.

 

[guilo]

Even though I have no faith whatsoever, I truly believe it is a virtue. A faithful life is easy to live, because the answers non-believers are questioning are taken as a given. In other words, people with faith have something to act there lives out upon, but non-believers have to make choices without a frame of reference. I would therefore prefer to have faith, but since my whole being demands a reason for everything, it is something that is impossible for me summon up.

Cool thread...

 

[Katzpur]

In this thread I will define "Faith" as a belief/trust in someone or something and accepting it as true or untrue even if it goes against counter-evidence, reason, and/or logic. If you disagree with this definition of faith, please assert your own definition of faith before you post and if possible provide an example.

I don't see faith as believing in someone or something that can be disproven. I see that as stupidity. I see faith as believing in someone or something in spite of the fact that it cannot be proven. There is a huge difference.

I wish to ask if faith and simple belief are valuable or at least more valuable than scepticism and rational thinking.

The German poet, Goethe, once said, "Human life divided by reason leaves a remainder." To me, it's what we do with the remainder that matters. Proof can take us only so far. Faith takes over when proof can go no further.

I believe that faith is invaluable.

So do I, but I know what "invaluable" means and you evidently don't.

I believe that a rational ignorance about reality is infinitely much better than a religious pretense about reality. (And yes, i would equate religion with irrationality.)

So did you just start this thread with the purpose of insulting us irrational fools who refuse to pretend that it's possible to prove all truth? Or were you just looking for some like-minded rationally ignorant folks to hang out with?

 

[MoonWater]

From dictionary.com

faith

–noun 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

faith (fāth)
n.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

[Middle English, from Anglo-Norman fed, from Latin fidēs; see bheidh- in Indo-European roots.] The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition


Nonbeliever it would seem that according to the dictionary you are indeed mistaken about the definition of faith. Even the definitions that are closest to the definition you give state "without PROOF" or "does not REST on logic or material evidence" Meaning it is not wholly dependent on those things and there is not enough evidence to call the premise in question a fact. Nowhere in these definitions or in the other dictionaries I looked in was it stated that faith is "withOUT reason logic or evidence". It is merely stated that they are without PROOF and are not DEPENDENT on logic, reason is not brought into the definitions at all and when the term evidence is brought up it is specified as material evidence and as such it is not discounting all evidence. It would seem as though you are the one who needs to change their definition. or do you have an actual dictionary from which you can quote your particular definition. What sources are there that you have that support the definition of faith you have given?

 

[NoGodNeeded]

What valuable things can be acquired with faith that can't be acquired without it?

 

[MoonWater]

What valuable things can be acquired with faith that can't be acquired without it?

spiritual growth and loving relationships are two things that pop immediately to my mind. But then this is going based on my personal views of faith that I described earlier in this thread. I don't equate faith to religion so don't assume that I'm saying one must be religious in order to love, I'm not.

 

[NoGodNeeded]

what's spiritual growth?

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Faith is the sad excuse people give to their belief when they don't have reasonable grounds for that belief in the first place.

 

[Michael Turner]

The value of faith depends on what type of faith we are talking about. Everyone has some sort of faith--many sorts, really. Even our resident atheists here have an abundance of faith. I would politely argue that they likely have far too much for their own good.

However, as it pertains to saving faith or that which connects a fallen man to God...well, that sort of faith is not something that we can just muster up ourselves. As our unbelieving friends so kindly display, man is born at emnity with God. So this saving faith is quite unnatural for us. It is a gift from God himself (Eph 2:8). Therefore, its value is beyond measure. Even a mustard seed-size portion can secure eternal life.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Yeah, don't think I have any faith. Don't think anyone could supply an example as to which i would apply fiath either...

 

[MoonWater]

Faith is the sad excuse people give to their belief when they don't have reasonable grounds for that belief in the first place.

I take it this means you have no response to this:

From dictionary.com

faith

–noun 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

faith (fāth)
n.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

[Middle English, from Anglo-Norman fed, from Latin fidēs; see bheidh- in Indo-European roots.] The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition


Nonbeliever it would seem that according to the dictionary you are indeed mistaken about the definition of faith. Even the definitions that are closest to the definition you give state "without PROOF" or "does not REST on logic or material evidence" Meaning it is not wholly dependent on those things and there is not enough evidence to call the premise in question a fact. Nowhere in these definitions or in the other dictionaries I looked in was it stated that faith is "withOUT reason logic or evidence". It is merely stated that they are without PROOF and are not DEPENDENT on logic, reason is not brought into the definitions at all and when the term evidence is brought up it is specified as material evidence and as such it is not discounting all evidence. It would seem as though you are the one who needs to change their definition. or do you have an actual dictionary from which you can quote your particular definition. What sources are there that you have that support the definition of faith you have given?

 

[MoonWater]

what's spiritual growth?

Spiritual growth will mean something different to different people so i can only speak for myself. For me it's a short hand way of saying, learning and growing as an individual, discovering all the nuances of myself and who I am and bringing all those "puzzle pieces" together to create the "picture" of myself.

 

[PureX]

what's spiritual growth?

it's transcending one's self. It's expanding one's consciousness so as to include others in one's idea of self. It's learning to see other people in ourselves, and ourselves in others. And to understand ourselves as one among many: to make peace with both our ignorance and our mortality.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

From dictionary.com

faith

–noun 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

faith (fāth)

n.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

[Middle English, from Anglo-Norman fed, from Latin fidēs; see bheidh- in Indo-European roots.] The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition


Nonbeliever it would seem that according to the dictionary you are indeed mistaken about the definition of faith. Even the definitions that are closest to the definition you give state "without PROOF" or "does not REST on logic or material evidence" Meaning it is not wholly dependent on those things and there is not enough evidence to call the premise in question a fact. Nowhere in these definitions or in the other dictionaries I looked in was it stated that faith is "withOUT reason logic or evidence". It is merely stated that they are without PROOF and are not DEPENDENT on logic, reason is not brought into the definitions at all and when the term evidence is brought up it is specified as material evidence and as such it is not discounting all evidence. It would seem as though you are the one who needs to change their definition. or do you have an actual dictionary from which you can quote your particular definition. What sources are there that you have that support the definition of faith you have given?

Oops, :sorry1: thought i'd already responded to this... where's my memory going?

I see no confliction between my definition and this dictionary reference. But the reason I included reason in my definition is because I've only ever heard faith used in that context. When people don't have a good reason for believing something they just say "Oh I have faith" and thinks it justified. It's like a sacrifice of sorts, it's like a surrender. If one could give me a good reason for believing in any god or supernatural force I would consider it, but so far no one has. They've all just basically boiled down to responding to "Why do you believe" with "Oh I just do" and I don't find that acceptable. Frankly, I find it to be a bit pathetic...

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Spiritual growth will mean something different to different people so i can only speak for myself. For me it's a short hand way of saying, learning and growing as an individual, discovering all the nuances of myself and who I am and bringing all those "puzzle pieces" together to create the "picture" of myself.

it's transcending one's self. It's expanding one's consciousness so as to include others in one's idea of self. It's learning to see other people in ourselves, and ourselves in others. And to understand ourselves as one among many: to make peace with both our ignorance and our mortality.

Neither of these things require faith as to which I believe the original question was asked.

 

[MoonWater]

Oops, :sorry1: thought i'd already responded to this... where's my memory going?

I see no confliction between my definition and this dictionary reference. But the reason I included reason in my definition is because I've only ever heard faith used in that context. When people don't have a good reason for believing something they just say "Oh I have faith" and thinks it justified. It's like a sacrifice of sorts, it's like a surrender. If one could give me a good reason for believing in any god or supernatural force I would consider it, but so far no one has. They've all just basically boiled down to responding to "Why do you believe" with "Oh I just do" and I don't find that acceptable. Frankly, I find it to be a bit pathetic...

While I don't doubt that there are people who fall into that camp of really having no reason to believe that doesn't all believers do. Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you don't know or understand their reasons or find them unwilling to explain them that that automatically means there is no reason. And don't make the mistake of thinking that those who claim faith when they have no reason to believe hold a monopoly on faith or even have actual faith to begin with.

It's one thing to draw conclusions based on your experiences. It's a whole other thing entirely to draw conclusions based on initial experiences and then refuse to change later when new experiences prove your original conclusions to be misinformed. Because I can tell you right now that you HAVE heard of faith used in other contexts. I myself have explained my own use of it which is different from what you describe as have others here, you just don't buy it. Quite frankly I don't see how you miss the contradiction between your definition and the dictionary definition, especially after having it spelled out for you.

You have been told many times, by people of faith, that the definition you have of faith is incorrect. Frankly I think the person who has faith will have a better idea of what faith really is then the person who claims he doesn't.

 

[MoonWater]

Neither of these things require faith as to which I believe the original question was asked.

by the definition YOU give they don't. But by the definition I hold, that(I'm assuming purex holds), and that the dictionary holds they do; they require one to have faith in themselves.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

While I don't doubt that there are people who fall into that camp of really having no reason to believe that doesn't all believers do. Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you don't know or understand their reasons or find them unwilling to explain them that that automatically means there is no reason. And don't make the mistake of thinking that those who claim faith when they have no reason to believe hold a monopoly on faith or even have actual faith to begin with.

It's one thing to draw conclusions based on your experiences. It's a whole other thing entirely to draw conclusions based on initial experiences and then refuse to change later when new experiences prove your original conclusions to be misinformed. Because I can tell you right now that you HAVE heard of faith used in other contexts. I myself have explained my own use of it which is different from what you describe as have others here, you just don't buy it. Quite frankly I don't see how you miss the contradiction between your definition and the dictionary definition, especially after having it spelled out for you.

You have been told many times, by people of faith, that the definition you have of faith is incorrect. Frankly I think the person who has faith will have a better idea of what faith really is then the person who claims he doesn't.

I never said they did, I said I've yet to find someone who does when it boils down. If you can't validate why you believe something then you call it faith. If you can't provide a reason then you call it faith. Reason is a large factor in belief and if you can't provide a reason for that belief then that belief is therefore nonsense.

About experiences, I've yet to encounter someone who has had a "divine" experience give me a reason to believe that their experience was divine in the first place. When I ask, they say "they just know" "just knowing"="faith"

I've yet to encounter someone who claimed to have had a "paranormal" experience (ghosts, psychics, etc...) give me a good reason to believe that the experience itself was paranormal. "Well how do you know the paranormal thing you saw was i fact paranormal?" "oh well you just had to be there" (so far so good) "I mean i just can't explain it" (oh, well, fail)

Proclaiming that you "just know" is faith. there is little if anything in this world that we "just know". Instincts are reflexive, not cognitive. And psychic phenomenon aren't reliable, neither is intuition.

Saying that since you can't explain it, it must be supernatural, is ridiculous. It's like equating "I don't know" with "I do know"

Faith is like building your house on pudding. If anyone has a good reason to why they believe in things "supernatural" or "paranormal" besides "faith" I would like to hear it. If you can provide examples.

 

[NoGodNeeded]

i have to agree with nonbeliever, those examples don't require faith.

 

[MoonWater]

I never said they did, I said I've yet to find someone who does when it boils down. If you can't validate why you believe something then you call it faith. If you can't provide a reason then you call it faith. Reason is a large factor in belief and if you can't provide a reason for that belief then that belief is therefore nonsense.

About experiences, I've yet to encounter someone who has had a "divine" experience give me a reason to believe that their experience was divine in the first place. When I ask, they say "they just know" "just knowing"="faith"

I've yet to encounter someone who claimed to have had a "paranormal" experience (ghosts, psychics, etc...) give me a good reason to believe that the experience itself was paranormal. "Well how do you know the paranormal thing you saw was i fact paranormal?" "oh well you just had to be there" (so far so good) "I mean i just can't explain it" (oh, well, fail)

Proclaiming that you "just know" is faith. there is little if anything in this world that we "just know". Instincts are reflexive, not cognitive. And psychic phenomenon aren't reliable, neither is intuition.

Saying that since you can't explain it, it must be supernatural, is ridiculous. It's like equating "I don't know" with "I do know"

Faith is like building your house on pudding. If anyone has a good reason to why they believe in things "supernatural" or "paranormal" besides "faith" I would like to hear it. If you can provide examples.

Faith and knowledge are not equivalent and those theists who claim they "just KNOW" based on faith lack understanding of what faith really means. If a person KNOWS something then faith is not present. As for equating something to the supernatural because it can't be explained, I agree that is silly. But faith is not limited to the realm of the supernatural and the unexplained. I fail to see why you insist on trying to squeeze faith into such a narrow box when you have been told several times, by people of faith, that it just doesn't fit.