Is Faith Valuable?

[nonbeliever_92]

To become comfortable with one's self means having to become comfortable with one's own profound ignorance. This requires faith.

For example, we humans have no idea where we come from, why we exist, or if we continue to exist in some other form when we leave here. Therefor, we cannot know what we're supposed to do here, if anything. These are important and fundamental questions in our lives, yet even though we have the capability of asking them, we don't have the capabilities required to answer them with anything other than hope and imagination. And yet without these answers, we really have no clue what to do with ourselves.

How do we make peace with this ignorance? The answer is faith. We consider the questions, formulate answers using our imagination and intuition (as we do not possess knowledge regarding these questions) and then we live out our hope that these "answers" will turn out to be true. The act of living out our hopes is called "faith".
No, you can't achieve any spiritual growth that way. There is nothing wrong with studying the experiences and ideas of others, but the only way for a human being to grow spiritually is to "transcend the self". That means we have to find the courage to put these ideas onto actions, and to accept the consequences. It's only from experiencing the consequences of living out our hopes that we can truly learn about ourselves. And then coming to know ourselves as we really are, (and really aren't) we can learn to make peace with that.
Not faith in ourselves, but faith in our deepest hopes. Faith, hope, and courage are all part of the same activity. And that activity is living life as best we are able in spite of our profound ignorance.
It requires more than that. It requires conscious thought, and courage, and humility. I agree, you are now explaining the difference between faith, and simple willful ignorance. I hope you are seeing that difference.
Well, hope may include "making things up". Why not? We have been blessed with fantastic imaginations. But I agree with you that to simply pretend that our imagined "answers" to those difficult questions are THE answer, is a form of willful ignorance, and is both irrational and unhealthy.

I also agree with you that this is what some religious organizations teach as "faith". But let us be clear - this is not faith, and those organizations are just peddling a form of intellectual dope. They are not interested in anyone's spiritual growth or well-being. They are religions is name, only.

No, aside from what spiritual growth actually means since it sounds like a lot of BS, these things do not require faith at all. Faith in yourslef is not really faith, it's more like trust or hopeful belief. Oh I can trust myself to say that if I have a glass of wine tonight then I won't go on a drinking binge (although alcholism runs in my family so i won't actually try it, plus I'm not yet 21 so...). But if I was an alcoholic, I can sure say that I can't trust myself to only drink one glass of wine (pending on if I'm in denial or not). Saying that I have that I am able to do something is not an admission of faith, it's an admission of confidence in one's own abilities. I believe that i can finish all the Harry Potter books in a month, but I don't believe that I can read War in Peace in two weeks. In this there is room for me to be wrong on both accounts, which people who use faith (belief that is in resistantce, neglect, or denial of reason, logic and/or evidence [different sturucture, slight change in words, same connotations, Mestemia]) hardly ever do.

My point is that I see the excuse faith only given to people who really don't have a good reason to believe what they do, if your argument boils down to using "faith" then you fail. "Oh you just have to have faith" is not a reason to believe or disbelieve something.

 

[PureX]

"Oh you just have to have faith" is not a reason to believe or disbelieve something.

No, but it's a good reason to try when we lack the necessary knowledge. It will be the results that become that "good reason", if they are favorable.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

By "without it" I think she meant by an alternative non-faith method and wasn't using "faith" as a stand in for religion.

Fair enough. I have given your "hope/faith" distinction some thought and come to the conclusion that unless your new definition of faith changes some more some of the things I mention still apply. Yes, it is hope that I have that my neighbor is a "decent person." It is an irrational hope, since it far exceeds the likelihood of them actually being decent, but I am willing to play with a means ends distinction between hope and faith.

However, in the case of "in the end patience is rewarded" is not something that I can ever know for certain. Unlike my neighbor there is never a "test" one can do to verify whether or not "patience is rewarded" is generally true or not. Perhaps it isn't true that in the majority of circumstances having patience proves functional/beneficial. But I believe that it is, and I think that places it squarely within the realm of faith.



NoGodNeeded: To answer the lady's question I don't think there is strictly anything. Faith is a coping mechanism which is just as valid as any other. But it is an effective one, and I am fairly sure that all of us have symbols an irrational beliefs which help sustain us at the end of the day. It is just that not all of us have religious irrational beliefs/symbols which help sustain us. In fact I would argue that most of the symbols/irrational beliefs that humans have/use are non-religious in nature.

So it (while not being non-trivial) is within the realm of possibility to discriminate religious faith from other irrational beliefs toward the end of determining religious faith to be functionally redundant.


MTF

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Fair enough. I have given your "hope/faith" distinction some thought and come to the conclusion that unless your new definition of faith changes some more some of the things I mention still apply. Yes, it is hope that I have that my neighbor is a "decent person." It is an irrational hope, since it far exceeds the likelihood of them actually being decent, but I am willing to play with a means ends distinction between hope and faith.

However, in the case of "in the end patience is rewarded" is not something that I can ever know for certain. Unlike my neighbor there is never a "test" one can do to verify whether or not "patience is rewarded" is generally true or not. Perhaps it isn't true that in the majority of circumstances having patience proves functional/beneficial. But I believe that it is, and I think that places it squarely within the realm of faith.




MTF

Questions:

1) How do you define decent?
2) Have you ever seen your neighbor doing something "undecent" by your definition?
3) Do you have a inkling to believe that your neighbor is decent or not?

4)Do you know of any cases in which patience has rewarded someon with something?

 

[nonbeliever_92]

NoGodNeeded: To answer the lady's question I don't think there is strictly anything. Faith is a coping mechanism which is just as valid as any other. But it is an effective one, and I am fairly sure that all of us have symbols an irrational beliefs which help sustain us at the end of the day. It is just that not all of us have religious irrational beliefs/symbols which help sustain us. In fact I would argue that most of the symbols/irrational beliefs that humans have/use are non-religious in nature.

So it (while not being non-trivial) is within the realm of possibility to discriminate religious faith from other irrational beliefs toward the end of determining religious faith to be functionally redundant.


MTF

How is it effective in a way in which a non-faith method can't be?

 

[nonbeliever_92]

No, but it's a good reason to try when we lack the necessary knowledge. It will be the results that become that "good reason", if they are favorable.

No it's not. "I don't know" should be the only proper response when you DON'T KNOW SOMETHING. "Oh I have faith" is basically saying "I just know with all my heart." Pretending to know something just because it makes you feel better is neither appealing nor impressive, it's pathetic. "I have faith" is never a good reason, no matter what the situation.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

Questions:

1) How do you define decent?
2) Have you ever seen your neighbor doing something "undecent" by your definition?
3) Do you have a inkling to believe that your neighbor is decent or not?

4)Do you know of any cases in which patience has rewarded someon with something?

The definition of decent hardly matters here except as to provide a baseline for rationality. For sake of argument lets presume that "decent" means on average will engage in moral or amoral behavior more often than immoral behavior on a longitudinal basis.

There are some neighbors which I know precisely nothing about (as in I do not know what they look like, do not know their names, have never even said hello to them).

As I told you previously my "presumption" of decency far exceeds what is warranted by my evidence and my actions show this bias towards the presumption of decency, yet I know precisely nothing about most of my neighbors.


Sure, I know of several cases. I also know of several cases in which patience has resulted in losing out on things. He who hesitates is lost. Haste makes waste. These aphorisms are mutually exclusive, and yet our society very comfortably utilizes both. I am inclined to believe that more often that not patience is rewarded, and yet I cannot test this proposition.

When it comes to my neighbors I could investigate. So in a way I can see why this counts as "hope." But in the case of patience how does one go about testing to see if patience in the bulk of circumstances is rewarding or societally beneficial.

MTF

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"And yet without these answers, we really have no clue what to do with ourselves.

How do we make peace with this ignorance? The answer is faith. We consider the questions, formulate answers using our imagination and intuition (as we do not possess knowledge regarding these questions) and then we live out our hope that these "answers" will turn out to be true. The act of living out our hopes is called "faith".
No, you can't achieve any spiritual growth that way. There is nothing wrong with studying the experiences and ideas of others, but the only way for a human being to grow spiritually is to "transcend the self". "

Really, this is just gibberish.

We very well KNOW what to do with ourselves. Live. What more can/should there be?

Peace with WHAT ignorance? The way it is is the way it IS. There is nothing more to be considered. THIS is the universe in which we exist. We have some control over some aspects of it and we put our minds to it we can gain more. But most of it is beyond our control for the foreseeable future. And so wh-a-a-a-at?

"spiritual growth"??? What IS that exactly? Can you define it in concrete terms? Or is just more imaginings?:cover:

 

[PureX]

We very well KNOW what to do with ourselves. Live. What more can/should there be?

Live how? Live in what manner? Live to what end? Live for what purpose? These are questions human beings ask.

Peace with WHAT ignorance? The way it is is the way it IS. There is nothing more to be considered. THIS is the universe in which we exist. We have some control over some aspects of it and we put our minds to it we can gain more. But most of it is beyond our control for the foreseeable future. And so wh-a-a-a-at?

These are questions that most human beings ask. It seems to be our nature to ask them.

"spiritual growth"??? [/I]What IS that exactly? Can you define it in concrete terms? Or is just more imaginings?

I can't define it for you. It's like love, it has to be experienced to be understood.

 

[PureX]

No it's not. "I don't know" should be the only proper response when you DON'T KNOW SOMETHING.

Not if you also need to take an action when you "don't know" what the results of taking action might be. Then you have to act on faith.

"Oh I have faith" is basically saying "I just know with all my heart."

No, it's not that. We can have faith and still know that we are ignorant. In fact, it's BECAUSE we know that we are ignorant that we deed to have faith.

Pretending to know something just because it makes you feel better is neither appealing nor impressive, it's pathetic.

Faith is not "pretending". It's taking action based on our hopes, while knowing that we could be wrong.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Not if you also need to take an action when you "don't know" what the results of taking action might be. Then you have to act on faith.
No, it's not that. We can have faith and still know that we are ignorant. In fact, it's BECAUSE we know that we are ignorant that we deed to have faith.
Faith is not "pretending". It's taking action based on our hopes, while knowing that we could be wrong.

No, no, no. However I will agree with you that you take action when you don't know something (usually) but faith is not the action you mention. When we accept something on faith we sit back and relax thinking we've already got the answer. That's why when people say that they have faith in something they usually stop looking. Think about it:

"God exists."

"Could you provide some evidence."


(Long discussion in which theist proposes bunches and bunches of non-evidence, then finally admits after intense scrutinization: )

"Well then I have no evidence"

(or)

"Well the evidence I have I can't actually show you"

(or)

"The evidence is there but you just refuse to see it!" (*Storms off*)


"Well then, how do you know that god exists?"

(or)

"Well then, why do you believe that god exists?" (Except in cases in which the theist walks away, of course.)

"Oh, well I have faith, of course" (usually they smile as if justified.)

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Live how? Live in what manner? Live to what end? Live for what purpose? These are questions human beings ask.
These are questions that most human beings ask. It seems to be our nature to ask them.
I can't define it for you. It's like love, it has to be experienced to be understood.

To whatever end I decide, For whatever purpose I decide.:shout

If you can't define then does it exist outside your imagination?

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Sure, I know of several cases. I also know of several cases in which patience has resulted in losing out on things. He who hesitates is lost. Haste makes waste. These aphorisms are mutually exclusive, and yet our society very comfortably utilizes both. I am inclined to believe that more often that not patience is rewarded, and yet I cannot test this proposition.



MTF

No, I think you misunderstood the question, or perhaps it was how I worded it, I was actually asking if you know of any cases in which patience has rewarded someone with something.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

No, I think you misunderstood the question, or perhaps it was how I worded it, I was actually asking if you know of any cases in which patience has rewarded someone with something.

Then I think the question is vague as I do not quite understand what it is you are driving at. Are you asking "what values does patience have?" "Do I know of any instance of it producing material gains?" "Do I know of any instance of it producing any gains at all?"

MTF

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Then I think the question is vague as I do not quite understand what it is you are driving at. Are you asking "what values does patience have?" "Do I know of any instance of it producing material gains?" "Do I know of any instance of it producing any gains at all?"

MTF

Yes that's what I was asking, I should relly learn how to phrase things better....

 

[nonbeliever_92]

my question hasn't been answered!

 

[ManTimeForgot]

I was trying to think how best to answer the question. Patience my friend.

In order:

1) I find patience in a person produces someone is more accepting of adversity and that this is generally conducive to forming a society which can tolerate its fringe better and be cool enough to deal with big problems as they come.

2) Material gains production is a bit questionable. This gets into notions of proximal versus ultimate causation that I do not think contribute gainfully to this thread. But suffice it to say that I would go on the record as stating that yes I am aware of situations in which patience has produced material gains.

3) Gains in general is an easier prompt. The answer is yes, I am aware of situations in which patience has produced reward.



The issue I have is how best to illustrate what I am suggesting. I am aware of gains both manifest and potential, but I am also aware of losses both manifest and potential. But my willingness to be patient (in action and my belief in its necessity) exceeds its gains-loss ratio.

MTF

 

[PureX]

When we accept something on faith we sit back and relax thinking we've already got the answer.

That's pretense, not faith.

 

[PureX]

To whatever end I decide, For whatever purpose I decide.:shout

If you can't define then does it exist outside your imagination?

What does it mater if it exists outside my imagination? Everything that matters, matters because of my imagination. "I" am an imaginary being. "You" are, too. Without our imaginations, we are just dumb animals. We'd exist, but so what? Everything that matters comes from our humanness. And that comes from our imaginations. It's our imaginations that produce love, and art, and kindness and justice. It's our imaginations that give us our "selves". Without our imaginations, none of these questions would even be asked.

Yet you speak as if the "imaginary" isn't "real" when everything that is meaningful and human about us, comes from our imagination. And without it, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Yet you speak as if the "imaginary" isn't "real" when everything that is meaningful and human about us, comes from our imagination. And without it, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

This is silliness squared.

That is because it ISN'T real. Unicorns, Harvey, Loch Nessa, FSM and Zeus are not and were not real. To pretend they are just because someone thought them up is to deny reality is real.

And if think not just imagine there is 10K extra in your account and write a check against it. Reality will show your imagination isn't real in about 5 days.

Seriously, this kind of mystical nonsense wouldn't get pass my 6 yrs old grandson.