Is Faith Valuable?

[averageJOE]

All but 2 soldiers (including myself) in my squad are Christians. Everyday before we roll out on mission they get together and say a prayer. Which is cool, I don't partake but whatever.

When we sit around and talk about the possiblities of getting blown up and killed they say that they have faith that Jesus will guide and protect us.

For me, I can say that I do have faith also. However, my faith is based on logic and reason. I have faith that my helmet, weapon, ballistic vest, and armored truck will protect me. These things were designed to protect during combat. To me, having faith that Jesus or God will protect us is a false sense of security.

One of the things they are quick to bring up if they do happen to get killed that is is only because God decided it was time for them to die. That it is "His will" if they get killed. Which is one of the reasons why I will never conform to Christianity. I don't know how anyone can worship a God who actually wants people to die.

I think is great that they pray and get "piece of mind". For me, when we roll out into the streets of Bahgdad I'll take faith in my gear over faith in Jesus/God everytime.

 

[Amill]

I certainly think there are better ways to find comfort and happiness than faith in god, but I don't ever want to take away someone's faith. I may question religion and ask people to take a more rational look at the many religions of the world, but I see no need for someone to remove their belief in god. I think that is something that needs to happen on their own terms, if it happens at all.

I believe that faith can be extraordinarily valuable. I can't imagine growing up in a poor community with limited amounts of food, unclean water, and disease, and not believe that someone will help me out in the end, or that things will be better in the next life. I can't imagine not needing that kind of comfort in that situation. If someone needs faith in god for comfort and happiness, how could I want that taken away from them? I am most definitely not against having faith in a god, I am against the religious texts themselves and the ideas that are present and influential. So I stick to criticizing religion and beliefs that impede the happiness and equality of others.

 

[dogsgod]

All but 2 soldiers (including myself) in my squad are Christians. Everyday before we roll out on mission they get together and say a prayer. Which is cool, I don't partake but whatever.

When we sit around and talk about the possiblities of getting blown up and killed they say that they have faith that Jesus will guide and protect us.

For me, I can say that I do have faith also. However, my faith is based on logic and reason. I have faith that my helmet, weapon, ballistic vest, and armored truck will protect me. These things were designed to protect during combat. To me, having faith that Jesus or God will protect us is a false sense of security.

One of the things they are quick to bring up if they do happen to get killed that is is only because God decided it was time for them to die. That it is "His will" if they get killed. Which is one of the reasons why I will never conform to Christianity. I don't know how anyone can worship a God who actually wants people to die.

I think is great that they pray and get "piece of mind". For me, when we roll out into the streets of Bahgdad I'll take faith in my gear over faith in Jesus/God everytime.

Out of curiosity do you believe in forces of good vs forces of evil? The reason I ask is because I can understand why Christians et al join an army but I have difficulty in understanding how one using reason and logic joins an army. Do you believe there are good guys and there are bad guys and that the good guys know who they are and the bad guys know who they are, that each know their role?

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Faith and knowledge are not equivalent and those theists who claim they "just KNOW" based on faith lack understanding of what faith really means. If a person KNOWS something then faith is not present. As for equating something to the supernatural because it can't be explained, I agree that is silly. But faith is not limited to the realm of the supernatural and the unexplained. I fail to see why you insist on trying to squeeze faith into such a narrow box when you have been told several times, by people of faith, that it just doesn't fit.

I know that faith and the supernatural aren't exclusively connected, but my point is that people only seem to use the word faith when they can't come up with a good reason for believing something, most notably with the supernatural. It would be just as ridiculous however, for someone to say that they have faith that their spouse will not cheat on them anymore when in the past that spouse has repeatedly been known to cheat.

In many ways they're like a wife in a flawed marriage, people who use faith. Just like a wife who stays with an abusive husband because she believe that their husband will stop or that he doesn't mean to hit her, people who use faith as a reason are just making nonsensical excuses. There appears to be this same fear, denial, or just unwillingness to see this belief as unreasonable. Now religious faith may not be harmful to oneself such as denial of an abusive relationship is, but it still doesn't hold any merit or value.

NoGodNeeded asked if there was anything that could only be obtained through faith and not through alternative means that don't require faith. People who say "I believe in so-and-so because it helps me be a better person/ because it helps me to come to terms with myself/ it helps to reveal my inner self/ etc..." either are not willingto or just simply can't recognize that faith is not needed to obtain these things. And still no one has provided an example as to which faith is required.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

For me, I can say that I do have faith also. However, my faith is based on logic and reason. I have faith that my helmet, weapon, ballistic vest, and armored truck will protect me. These things were designed to protect during combat. To me, having faith that Jesus or God will protect us is a false sense of security.

You are describing trust in these objects, not faith. Unless of course your helmet, weapon, vest, and truck are made out of jello...

 

[nonbeliever_92]

I believe that faith can be extraordinarily valuable. I can't imagine growing up in a poor community with limited amounts of food, unclean water, and disease, and not believe that someone will help me out in the end, or that things will be better in the next life. I can't imagine not needing that kind of comfort in that situation. If someone needs faith in god for comfort and happiness, how could I want that taken away from them?

This example requires hope, not faith. How can you believe something true that hasn't happened yet? There is a clear difference between faith and hope.

 

[Amill]

This example requires hope, not faith. How can you believe something true that hasn't happened yet? There is a clear difference between faith and hope.

What is the difference between faith and hope? I think they're pretty much the same.

 

[MoonWater]

I know that faith and the supernatural aren't exclusively connected, but my point is that people only seem to use the word faith when they can't come up with a good reason for believing something, most notably with the supernatural. It would be just as ridiculous however, for someone to say that they have faith that their spouse will not cheat on them anymore when in the past that spouse has repeatedly been known to cheat.

In many ways they're like a wife in a flawed marriage, people who use faith. Just like a wife who stays with an abusive husband because she believe that their husband will stop or that he doesn't mean to hit her, people who use faith as a reason are just making nonsensical excuses. There appears to be this same fear, denial, or just unwillingness to see this belief as unreasonable. Now religious faith may not be harmful to oneself such as denial of an abusive relationship is, but it still doesn't hold any merit or value.

NoGodNeeded asked if there was anything that could only be obtained through faith and not through alternative means that don't require faith. People who say "I believe in so-and-so because it helps me be a better person/ because it helps me to come to terms with myself/ it helps to reveal my inner self/ etc..." either are not willingto or just simply can't recognize that faith is not needed to obtain these things. And still no one has provided an example as to which faith is required.

I really grow tired of repeating myself. If faith were as you define then yes you would be right. However faith is NOT as you define it. Even the dictionary says otherwise. What you have been defining this whole time is "willful ignorance" not faith.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

I really grow tired of repeating myself. If faith were as you define then yes you would be right. However faith is NOT as you define it. Even the dictionary says otherwise. What you have been defining this whole time is "willful ignorance" not faith.

And I get tired of repeating myself too. Where in fact does my defintion of faith, belief without evidence reason or logic, conflict with the dictionary's defintion. If you can't find a logical or evidential reason for believing something, what reason would you have? And don't say emotional either, because even emotions can be drawn into rational and logical measures even if they seem not to most of the time.

Provide an example in which something only faith can provide and not by any other non-faith way.

You and pure x I believe said "spiritual growth" that is growing as person becoming comfortable with one self and the world and having peace with the universe. One has to have faith in themselves for that? How so? You can achieve "spiritual growth" by reading, researching, studying, experimenting, observing, etc... where in that is there faith? You could say that it requires faith in oneself to do these things, but no it doesn't, even by your definition. It probably just requires curiosity or being uncomfortable with one's ignorance about the universe. You could fill that uncomfortability with a belief in a higher power. Or you can fill that uncomfortability with the knowledge that you are ignorant of the universe, and perhaps someday you won't be, But it would be absurd to think that you aren't now simply because of a wild concept you have no good reason to believe in. Andyou don't need to make up or follow any assuming pretense of knowledge just so that you feel okay. What benefit does that pretense get you that can't be acquired someplace else with a possibility of better results not only for yourself, but for others?

 

[McBell]

my definition of faith: belief without evidence, reason, and/or logic and is therefore useless in the modern world.

my defintion of faith, belief without evidence reason or logic, conflict with the dictionary's defintion.

In this thread I will define "Faith" as a belief/trust in someone or something and accepting it as true or untrue even if it goes against counter-evidence, reason, and/or logic. If you disagree with this definition of faith, please assert your own definition of faith before you post and if possible provide an example.

Faith is believing in something or someone against evidence, reason, and/or logic.

So which of these definitions are you going with again?

Cause believe it or not, the phrase "against evidence" means something entirely different from the phrase "without evidence".

 

[PureX]

You and pure x I believe said "spiritual growth" that is growing as person becoming comfortable with one self and the world and having peace with the universe. One has to have faith in themselves for that? How so?

To become comfortable with one's self means having to become comfortable with one's own profound ignorance. This requires faith.

For example, we humans have no idea where we come from, why we exist, or if we continue to exist in some other form when we leave here. Therefor, we cannot know what we're supposed to do here, if anything. These are important and fundamental questions in our lives, yet even though we have the capability of asking them, we don't have the capabilities required to answer them with anything other than hope and imagination. And yet without these answers, we really have no clue what to do with ourselves.

How do we make peace with this ignorance? The answer is faith. We consider the questions, formulate answers using our imagination and intuition (as we do not possess knowledge regarding these questions) and then we live out our hope that these "answers" will turn out to be true. The act of living out our hopes is called "faith".

You can achieve "spiritual growth" by reading, researching, studying, experimenting, observing, etc... where in that is there faith?

No, you can't achieve any spiritual growth that way. There is nothing wrong with studying the experiences and ideas of others, but the only way for a human being to grow spiritually is to "transcend the self". That means we have to find the courage to put these ideas onto actions, and to accept the consequences. It's only from experiencing the consequences of living out our hopes that we can truly learn about ourselves. And then coming to know ourselves as we really are, (and really aren't) we can learn to make peace with that.

You could say that it requires faith in oneself to do these things, but no it doesn't, even by your definition.

Not faith in ourselves, but faith in our deepest hopes. Faith, hope, and courage are all part of the same activity. And that activity is living life as best we are able in spite of our profound ignorance.

It probably just requires curiosity or being uncomfortable with one's ignorance about the universe.

It requires more than that. It requires conscious thought, and courage, and humility.

You could fill that uncomfortability with a belief in a higher power. Or you can fill that uncomfortability with the knowledge that you are ignorant of the universe, and perhaps someday you won't be, But it would be absurd to think that you aren't now simply because of a wild concept you have no good reason to believe in.

I agree, you are now explaining the difference between faith, and simple willful ignorance. I hope you are seeing that difference.

And you don't need to make up or follow any assuming pretense of knowledge just so that you feel okay. What benefit does that pretense get you that can't be acquired someplace else with a possibility of better results not only for yourself, but for others?

Well, hope may include "making things up". Why not? We have been blessed with fantastic imaginations. But I agree with you that to simply pretend that our imagined "answers" to those difficult questions are THE answer, is a form of willful ignorance, and is both irrational and unhealthy.

I also agree with you that this is what some religious organizations teach as "faith". But let us be clear - this is not faith, and those organizations are just peddling a form of intellectual dope. They are not interested in anyone's spiritual growth or well-being. They are religions is name, only.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

So which of these definitions are you going with again?

Cause believe it or not, the phrase "against evidence" means something entirely different from the phrase "without evidence".

Nope, they all fit together just finely.

 

[McBell]

Nope, they all fit together just finely.

To you perhaps.
But then there are those like me who actually do see and understand the difference.

Thank you.
Now that I know that discussion of the topic with your is pointless, I shall now leave this pointless thread.

have a nice day.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

with your?
And I will

 

[NoGodNeeded]

Hmm... Still no one has answered my question, what can be benefitted from faith that can't be benefitted without it?

 

[ManTimeForgot]

Hmm... Still no one has answered my question, what can be benefitted from faith that can't be benefitted without it?

I think I made a case for some value to be had previously on this very thread. Now despite Non-believer's "astute insight" that my argument essentially boils down to it makes people feel good about themselves and their world, I would contend that this is actually quite valuable. If everyone were to live with "constant awareness" (that is acting with full perspective) of their "own value" inside a system full of unknowns and of possibly infinite size it would be sanity grinding. We are all, deep down, scared little children afraid of the "dark" (as children seeing was believing so darkness is scary, but some of us move past this) and so we all have coping mechanisms. Religion is a coping mechanism for a great many people, and so long as it is not abused I do not care to strip people of their coping mechanisms.


Non-believer: I think your distinction between hope and faith is razor-thin, but perhaps a valid one... (making it the best kind of distinction ) I will give it some thought.

MTF

 

[StoneCrowUK]

just a note here from me, (i will do my best to describe something i don't fully understand)

faith is like psionics and telekinesis.
it is so often faked or "untrue" that there is no point doing something because someone else has faith in it being true.
and even if you feel faith you cannot truly trust the emotion until you are sure that you are not just mimicking another, someone elses faith/belief will never be your own belief, everybody is unique.

so what im trying to say here is that faith just like psionics is so easily (even un-knowingly) faked or misunderstood and it is also easy to live a perfectly happy life without faith, but if you do have faith you can do undefined things you never dreamed were possible. This faith needn't be in a god, it is up to you

and these undefined things (which everyone who searches should define for themselves) are exactly what can be benefitted from having faith.

i hope this didnt come across bad, i have only good intentions
SC..
(a sub statement~)
( i am not a fan of blind faith )
( i think that what you have faith in should be detectable )
( either in form or in effect )

 

[MSizer]

Hmm... Still no one has answered my question, what can be benefitted from faith that can't be benefitted without it?

Has nobody appealed to the empirical tests done that suggest that faithheads tend to have few mental and physical health problems? If you google "benefits of faith" I think they should be easy to find. If not, they're covered pretty thoroughly in Bruce Sheiman's "an atheist defends religion" (not that I'm necessarily supporting all of his suggestions, but he does do a detailed job of digging up real evidence for improved health for believers).

 

[nonbeliever_92]

By "without it" I think she meant by an alternative non-faith method and wasn't using "faith" as a stand in for religion.

 

[NoGodNeeded]

Oh yeah, i do mean that , NB92, perhaps I should've been a little clearer.

"What benefits can be reaped by Faith that can't be reaped through non-faith."