YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Were you always a Jew who believes that Jesus is the messiah, even when you were bar mitzvah'd?
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Is God a man?
- Thread starter IndigoChild5559
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You have a right to believe anything you want. If you want to believe in pink lunar elephants, I'm fine with that. But don't expect me to agree.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Of course. But that's why scientific method includes things such as peer review, repetition, and openness to new evidence altering conclusions.
I Am Hugh
Researcher
Allegedly, and often without intended effect. The thing about those sorts of things is that they are used counterproductively or abused. Same as anything else, really. It turned out science wasn't magic.
The Christian Bible (actually the entire Bible) is clear and 100% truthful. People will argue about anything, but that doesn't change the facts.
What "Roman influence in Bible" are you referring to?
Christianity was not the Roman state religion; quite the opposite.
I do trust in God. Why don't you give it a try?
What language are you quoting when you write "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie..."?
It is important to quote something a) in context and b) understand the tone and meaning of what is written.
Romans 3:1-7, "Therefore what advantage does the Jew have, or what is the value of circumcision? Actually, there are many advantages. First of all, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. What then? If some were unfaithful, their unfaithfulness will not nullify God’s faithfulness, will it? Absolutely not! Let God be proven true, and every human being shown up as a liar, just as it is written: “so that you will be justified in your words and will prevail when you are judged.”
But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is he? (I am speaking in human terms.) Absolutely not! For otherwise how could God judge the world? For if by my lie the truth of God enhances his glory, why am I still actually being judged as a sinner? And why not say, “Let us do evil so that good may come of it”?—as some who slander us allege that we say. (Their condemnation is deserved!)"
Obviously you quote out of context (in an archaic language) and have misinterpreted what was written. If you are going to debate about Biblical subjects, you need to do better. I'll give you a C-.
And..? I once hit a golf ball 275 yards.
So??? Are you saying that Roman Catholicism defines truth?
John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God."
John 1:3, "All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created". Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Do you have multiple personalities? "We believe in one God the Father..."
Why did He have to do that? Jesus is the image of His Father. The Holy Spirit and the Father are both invisible.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Being the image of someone doesn't make that person God or equal to that person. Furthermore, since you said you were bar mitzvah'd, did you believe Jesus was the Messiah when you were bar mitzvah'd? And yes, I knew many people that do not know anything much about God, the Bible or their own history yet they say they are Jews. So? Just because a person professes to be Jewish does not mean they (1) believe in God or (2) have any knowledge or understanding about God and his relationship with people.
No, I didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah when I was bar mitzvah'd. Not too long after that I became an atheist -- until Jesus Christ personally healed me in the hospital.
Being a Jew doesn't require people to know anything much about God, the Bible or their own history. If a person's mother is a Jew, then s/he is also a Jew.
Your last sentence is correct.
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a) Humans are made in the image of God. Genesis 1:26-27, "Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness, so they may rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move on the earth.”
God created humankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them,
male and female he created them.
b) Yeshua was/is God.
John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. [Genesis 1:1, In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind. And the light shines on in the darkness, but the darkness has not mastered it."
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I am certain that you do not accept the above, but as a a Christian -- all the first Christians were Jews! -- I accept what the Bible clearly says.
Jesus was/is God, 1/3 of the triune God. He created the earth and all life; in Him was life.
John 10:30-31, [Jesus said] "The Father and I are one.” The Jewish leaders picked up rocks again to stone him to death. (So, nothing has changed for 2,000 years!)
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Not "allegedly." We have all sorts of examples of conclusions that were discarded when new data was observed. For example, Newtonian Physics gave way to Relativity. Wegner was originally a laughing stock for his ideas on continental drift, but today Plate Tectonics is one of the biggest, best proven, and universally accepted theories. When I was a kid, they thought there was no water on the moon. At university, my professor Dr Robert Greene was alone in his opinion that the moon had water. Now they know there is-- there is no doubt. I mean, the list of these modifications is endless.
Scientists are loyal to the evidence, not the conclusions. Like all humans, they are reluctant to admit they need to modify, but, well, the truth will out.
As for the effects, I think we are far better off knowing the truth. Modern medicine and tech have not only made our lives easier, but have done more to relieve real human suffering than the entire history of religion.
However, I agree with you that a wicked person will manipulate truth for self gain, and that often we feel a deep sorrow when science shows us that we really are not all that special or different from other animals.
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Maninthemiddle
Active Member
the divine can take on the form of a Man whilst still maintaining his inherent nature, just as the driver of a vehicle can interact with the car without being equated with it.
If God enters a physical body he is still a God, I don’t become my car when I drive it.
If God enters a physical body he is still a God, I don’t become my car when I drive it.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That is the presumptive theory about birthright insofar as being considered a Jew, even if that person is an atheist or considered apostate. But I know of those who were bar mitzvah'd in synagogues that accepted them although the father was Jewish and the mother was not.
Let's stop there for a moment, if you will. Since God created mankind in his own image, does that mean men are God? How do you understand that?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I suppose that all depends on what you think the nature of God is. For me, the nature of God is that he is the creator and not creation, so for me, it would be counter to God's nature for him to become a rock or tree or human. But I do recognize that not everyone shares that point of view.
My verses were really designed to question those who accept the authority of the Tanakh (OT) but for some reason still think that Jesus is God.
I find that God had to become man to redeem man as He set the standard in Bere**** 1:26.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Thank you for your reply. I am enjoying the conversation.
You statement has a couple of assumptions that I do not share.
The first is your idea that we need to be redeemed. In Judaism, when we speak of being saved or redeemed, it refers to very earthly things like God delivering us from slavery in Egypt, or protecting David from his enemies. There is no concept that we are damned and need someone to save us from our sins. When we stumble, we repent, and God is gracious and merciful.
The second is that you are interpreting the "image of God" as referring to physical traits. The standard Jewish understanding is that it refers to character traits. Our concept of God is that he has no body, no form. We may speak figuratively of the face of God, or the finger of God, or the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden, but these are only anthropomorphisms.
BTW, I also run into the identical problem with RF editing me every time I use a Hebrew word ending in sh*t. I have learned to get around this by using a double ee instead of an i, as in Bereisheet, or Sheetuf. it took me a while to catch on. LOL
Maybe we can approach this differently. You have a wonderful post in reference to Judaism and in it you mention a variety of approaches from orthodox to very liberal but still based on the TaNaKh. Likewise, we also have foundational beliefs but may nave some nuances.
For an example… the earth was cursed by God. In that sense, there is a “redemption” that needs to be achieved and since our bodies are made up of dirt, we experience different levels of deaths that look for some type of redemption
And although I agree that we need to be redeemed from earthly things like our enemies, we do have a redeemer kinsman as well as a scapegoat and the blood on the Ark of the Covenant that does also speak of other redemptions. So whether poverty, sickness, enemies et al. there are many types of redemptions.
We, of course, believe that He is the LORD, our redeemer as the prophet so well said.
Here I would make an exception. Although there may be physical traits, I fully understand that it is our spirit that is made in His image. Even our authority has a basis of His image as well as our character.
I absolutely agree that at the inception of the statement, there was no body nor form. LOL… nor does He have wings though we hide under the shadow of His wings and there is healing in His wings.
LOL… Thanks for the update!BTW, I also run into the identical problem with RF editing me every time I use a Hebrew word ending in sh*t. I have learned to get around this by using a double ee instead of an i, as in Bereisheet, or Sheetuf. it took me a while to catch on. LOL
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Oh for sure.
When I read the verse about the earth being cursed, it is directly referring to how we have to work in order to feed ourselves, and in a larger sense to the overall hardship and suffering in life. I don't think it means the earth is a bad place. There is a lot of beauty and love to be had.
Nor do I think "the earth is cursed" means that we should just shrug and accept it as "God's will." We make tractors and stuff to make farming easier. We invent washing machines. We develop antibiotics. Genesis mentions the pain women will feel in childbirth -- I say give us epidurals.
IOW Genesis mentions things that were. It doesn't mean they need to stay that way. Further, it is human beings that repair the world.Now let's talk about your comments on death, since I need to better understand you. The normal literal meaning of death is when our bodies stop functioning and rot. There is no saving anyone from this. We will all die. But it can also be used figuratively as in "the love died within her," or "that's the kind of thing that kills the soul." I can see where you might say that by doing this other thing or having these other experiences, you can undo those harms, at least to a degree. I just don't know that I would use the word redemption or salvation to describe it.
So tell me more what it is that YOU mean.
I appreciate your use of Jewish themes as metaphors for your thoughts.
Again, I do think you are doing a great job of expressing the Christian view.What specifically do you think you are being redeemed from? I'm familiar with the usual Christian answers that they are being saved from their sins (which I don't understand) or saved from hell. But what do YOU think?
Saying that the scapegoat or Yom Kippur sacrifice were "redemptive" feels very awkward to me. I experience Yom Kippur as something that *I* do, not something that is done to me. I see it as repentance and atonement, which are actions on my part.
Are we in agreement that a redeemer kinsman is the family member who enters into a levirate marriage? The idea there is to create heirs for the deceased husband. I am really just not sure why he would be referred to as a kinsman redeemer. You may need to ask someone more learned in this than I am.
Sure. But this just brings us back to the same question: saved from what? redeemed from what?
Oh my goodness, that's one of my favorite psalms! "He will cover thee with His pinions, and under His wings shalt thou take refuge." What a beautiful, beautiful metaphor.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Interesting thought, Kenny. As I read your post again I think that Adam was created from the soil. And then, of course, God breathed life into his body and Adam became a living person. But how then is man'god equal to man? I mean if Jesus is man/god, or god in a man's body, how is he the equal of Adam? Adam was perfect, of course, until he sinned. Jesus, on the other hand, never sinned.
Yes, Adam was created fro soil and God breathed life into him. And, if we think about it, our bodies is still made of soil for our bodies go back to soil. And just to make sure, though I don’t think it needs to be said but for others who are reading, man is never equal to God even though God had to come to earth as man…
Let me explain.
Adam did sin and was cast out of the presence of God as well as the earth, of which he is made of, was cursed causing a death cycle in multiple arenas.
But notice the parameters that God set from the beginning:
Genesis 1: 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
We know God cannot lie. God has always worked through the dominion of men through covenant. Because He set the parameter that it is “man” to whom was given dominion (rulership and stewardship) over the whole of the earth, He cannot violate His own dictates or He would be a liar.
To bring man into harmony with God again, God had to redeem mankind but within the parameters that He set. To exercise dominion, He had to come legally through a woman and thus… Genesis 3: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The woman has no “seed” but it is man who gives seed (as referenced throughout the Bible). However, here it says “seed of a woman” which is Christ. To come legally into the world, it had to be through a woman. And thus, “born of a virgin”. Another body created by God Himself. Hebrews 10:5 "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:"
As The Word became flesh, He could now operate legally in this world to be completely God and yet fully man to redeem mankind and take back the dominion that Adam had handed over to satan - who had become the god of this world.
You are right in that Jesus never sinned and thus He was able to say: John 10: 18 "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again"
The only way satan could take His life is if He had sinned. When our sins were laid on Jesus and he let satan unjustly take His life, He righteously, correctly and completely took back the authority and had dominion over death, hell and the grave giving a death blow to satan. Thus “all authority is given unto me”, Jesus.
Let me know if I have to clarify any point.